Will an economic stimulus package help us during recession?

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I thought you were an accountant? I am not sure one = firm however a sole proprietor ( based on my experience) is at both ends of the under over taxed issue. Often expensing many illegitimate expenses, while is neighbor fails to expense many legitimate business expenses. For a good example look at whether his wife’s car is being depreciated and its care is being expensed
ANYBODY can have Schedule “C” income (and related expenses). And many people do. As long as they have legitimate businesses.

It’s not necessary to be a corporation.

You should get a copy of Schedule “C” and look it over.

In addition, the IRS publishes excellent booklets for guidance on how to fill out the Schedule “C”.
 
ANYBODY can have Schedule “C” income (and related expenses). And many people do.

You should get a copy of Schedule “C” and look it over.
Generally used by people who get paid as contrat labor. Once they start netting over $30,000 we move them into S Corps as quick as we can becuase of tax and liability issues.
 
I made a lot of money representing people before the IRS who fell for this scam. Calling yourslef a business gets one exacly NO tax benenfits. One would be foolish indeed if they wanted to call their house a business expense and depreciate it-they would then forfeit the exclusion of the first $500,000 in gain on a couples home when sold. You can take a portion of your home as an office in home BUT only if you are not provided and office anywhere else . The rules are preety complex.

Most small businesses are taxed as an S Corp which means that theCorporation pays no federal income tax-the net income of the corp flows thorugh to the owners personal return and is taxed at the owners personal income tax rate.
Thanks but the issue I am echoing is why should it matter, why must the entities be evaluated to determine whether they are the higher or lower tax entity.

Here is what the IRS writes “In forming a corporation, prospective shareholders exchange money, property, or both, for the corporation’s capital stock. A corporation generally takes the same deductions as a sole proprietorship to figure its taxable income. A corporation can also take special deductions.”
-irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,id=98240,00.html
 
You know better than that!!

A business cannot expense a capital expenditure.

A business can only charge as an expense the annual increment of depreciation on the item of capital expenditure. So if the IRS requires that 15-year depreciation be used, and the company has to pay the money on delivery, then the company has a “non-cash cost” for the balance.
Estesbob can provide better expertise on this than I can, but I don’t think this is entirely so. I believe capital expenditures up to some limit (I think maybe $200,000/year) can be expensed 100% in the year of purchase as long as the asset is put into production in that year.

Reminds me of at least one tax trick that actually is the result of negligent inventorying or the relative value of old beef cows to new calves. (Estesbob can tell us if it’s wrong). If one buys, say, breeding age cattle, he can directly expense those costs in that year. That’s a deduction against ordinary income.

If one sells breeding stock, that’s capital gain. If that cow, purchased this year, is sold next year, it might be expensed at, say, 35%, and the tax on the gain is only 15%. Now, I realize that the rancher is supposed to pay ordinary income tax on the sale proceeds of that cow, to the extent of his purchase price that he deducted in the prior year. No question about that. But since, in reality, few ranchers really know which cow is the one they bought last year, or the origins of the cow they sell this year, and “cull” for reasons unrelated to that, and typically also raise breeding stock, they tend to pay capital gain on that for which they received a deduction against ordinary income. As long as they keep a viable herd going, particularly an expanding herd, there’s really no way they’re going to be questioned on it. It is absolutely impossible to avoid having a cow die every now and then. Some cows will keep bearing good calves until they drop dead, and a producing cow will rarely be sold, if she’s having good calves. For some, the only reason for “culling” is obvious ill health, non-production, or the production of obviously inferior calves. But if a cow is a good producer, most ranchers will gladly risk the loss of a cow to old age for the sake of one more good calf, because a good calf is worth more than an old cow, and the calf is always capital gain if it’s not a steer and is raised to 2 years of age. If the deducted cow dies, it’s just a zero on the books.

That whole thing has always struck me as somewhat funny, because, while some ranchers might knowingly “cheat” in this way, I truly don’t think most know enough about the identity of their animals to know whether they’re “cheating” or not. I think it’s more a matter of a rancher giving himself the “benefit of the doubt”. Who would guess against himself?

But even if the rancher knows which animal is which, if the cow is a good enough producer to keep for her lifetime, and if he has enough pasture to raise the calves to two years, he always gets a deduction at his marginal rate for what he buys, and always sells at capital gain rates. That’s a 20% “subsidy” if his marginal rate is 35%.

Now, if the rancher buys a “long-bred” cow (close to having a calf) he’s going to pay a premium for her because of it. But no account is taken of the calf by the IRS in that. So, his deduction is at his marginal rate for the full purchase price of the cow, part of which is really for the calf. Cow has calf. He raises the calf for two years, and it’s capital gain. So, notwithstanding that he “paid” for that calf by paying a premium for the long-bred cow, no account is taken of it when it’s tax time.

Also, if he breeds those two year olds, and sells them “long-bred”, no account is taken of the calf she’s about to have, and the whole sale price is capital gain, even though if the calf was sold immediately after its birth, it would be ordinary income.

I don’t even do my own taxes, being incompetent at that in the extreme. But there are some things I run across every now and then that really are fascinating.
 
Thanks but the issue I am echoing is why should it matter, why must the entities be evaluated to determine whether they are the higher or lower tax entity.

Here is what the IRS writes “In forming a corporation, prospective shareholders exchange money, property, or both, for the corporation’s capital stock. A corporation generally takes the same deductions as a sole proprietorship to figure its taxable income. A corporation can also take special deductions.”
-irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,id=98240,00.html
Ah the wonders of the internet! You have googled up a line out of a IRS publication and now are a tax expert. I bow to your superior expereince.
 
Estesbob can provide better expertise on this than I can, but I don’t think this is entirely so. I believe capital expenditures up to some limit (I think maybe $200,000/year) can be expensed 100% in the year of purchase as long as the asset is put into production in that year.

.
You need to ask Roofer-he’s the expert,
 
:hmmm:
You need to ask Roofer-he’s the expert,
:ehh: Oh well. Come to think of it, I have seen ranchers give fed steers to parishes to sell chances on. Guess they deduct the full market value of that steer, regardless of the parish’s take at the raffle.
 
:hmmm:

:ehh: Oh well. Come to think of it, I have seen ranchers give fed steers to parishes to sell chances on. Guess they deduct the full market value of that steer, regardless of the parish’s take at the raffle.
Well not exactly…but close.
 
A sole-proprietor can have employees working for him just as any other “firm” can. The point is that when people talk about a flat tax on “income”" they never stop to think what “income” is. In my “firm” I get to take deductions against my “inomce”. to arrive at my taxable "“income” Now if I get to take dedcutions against my “income” why shouldnt the guy who has w2 income be allowed to do the same thing?
What deductions do you get to take as a business owner that you don’t get to take if you were a w2 employee? When, I work for my employer, the employer has to pay for my office space, phone, computer, health insurance, etc. A business owner would have to pay for these things out of revenue and they would be deductible. The employee doesn’t have to deduct them because they are never counted as income in the first place.

I am not sure what this has to do with the flat tax? We have a progressive income tax and we seem to be able to define what income is. If we can define income with a progressive tax, why can’t it be done for a flat tax?
 
So, explain to me why a tax code that demands such hair splitting is such a good thing.

Reminds me of “depletion allowances”.

Companies could save a lot of time and expense and accounting gymnastics and get on with their job of providing goods and services (and jobs) if they could simply expense all capital expenditures in the year they were incurred. Or spread them out any way they wanted.

Just look at the complexity that has evolved by Congress (which makes the rules) and the IRS (which has to write the acutal procedures) regarding Individual Retirement Accounts. Used to be a one-pager; now it’s a book. And this is just for the average joe and jane who is a wage slave working for enough money to get by and would like to put some money away for retirement.

There seems to be an assumption that everyone works for a giant organization and is covered by a pension plan. But that was never true, and the IRA was designed to allow the individual to accrue some pension assets. And then Congress and the IRS began NOT ONLY making incomprehensible and exhausting rules, BUT ALSO added draconian penalties if by chance some person didn’t follow the rules precisely.

… the year after you turn 70 1/2??? … what the “heck” is that??? ]
Estesbob can provide better expertise on this than I can, but I don’t think this is entirely so. I believe capital expenditures up to some limit (I think maybe $200,000/year) can be expensed 100% in the year of purchase as long as the asset is put into production in that year.

Reminds me of at least one tax trick that actually is the result of negligent inventorying or the relative value of old beef cows to new calves. (Estesbob can tell us if it’s wrong). If one buys, say, breeding age cattle, he can directly expense those costs in that year. That’s a deduction against ordinary income.

If one sells breeding stock, that’s capital gain. If that cow, purchased this year, is sold next year, it might be expensed at, say, 35%, and the tax on the gain is only 15%. Now, I realize that the rancher is supposed to pay ordinary income tax on the sale proceeds of that cow, to the extent of his purchase price that he deducted in the prior year. No question about that. But since, in reality, few ranchers really know which cow is the one they bought last year, or the origins of the cow they sell this year, and “cull” for reasons unrelated to that, and typically also raise breeding stock, they tend to pay capital gain on that for which they received a deduction against ordinary income. As long as they keep a viable herd going, particularly an expanding herd, there’s really no way they’re going to be questioned on it. It is absolutely impossible to avoid having a cow die every now and then. Some cows will keep bearing good calves until they drop dead, and a producing cow will rarely be sold, if she’s having good calves. For some, the only reason for “culling” is obvious ill health, non-production, or the production of obviously inferior calves. But if a cow is a good producer, most ranchers will gladly risk the loss of a cow to old age for the sake of one more good calf, because a good calf is worth more than an old cow, and the calf is always capital gain if it’s not a steer and is raised to 2 years of age. If the deducted cow dies, it’s just a zero on the books.

That whole thing has always struck me as somewhat funny, because, while some ranchers might knowingly “cheat” in this way, I truly don’t think most know enough about the identity of their animals to know whether they’re “cheating” or not. I think it’s more a matter of a rancher giving himself the “benefit of the doubt”. Who would guess against himself?

But even if the rancher knows which animal is which, if the cow is a good enough producer to keep for her lifetime, and if he has enough pasture to raise the calves to two years, he always gets a deduction at his marginal rate for what he buys, and always sells at capital gain rates. That’s a 20% “subsidy” if his marginal rate is 35%.

Now, if the rancher buys a “long-bred” cow (close to having a calf) he’s going to pay a premium for her because of it. But no account is taken of the calf by the IRS in that. So, his deduction is at his marginal rate for the full purchase price of the cow, part of which is really for the calf. Cow has calf. He raises the calf for two years, and it’s capital gain. So, notwithstanding that he “paid” for that calf by paying a premium for the long-bred cow, no account is taken of it when it’s tax time.

Also, if he breeds those two year olds, and sells them “long-bred”, no account is taken of the calf she’s about to have, and the whole sale price is capital gain, even though if the calf was sold immediately after its birth, it would be ordinary income.

I don’t even do my own taxes, being incompetent at that in the extreme. But there are some things I run across every now and then that really are fascinating.
 
I made a lot of money representing people before the IRS who fell for this scam. Calling yourslef a business gets one exacly NO tax benenfits. One would be foolish indeed if they wanted to call their house a business expense and depreciate it-they would then forfeit the exclusion of the first $500,000 in gain on a couples home when sold. You can take a portion of your home as an office in home BUT only if you are not provided and office anywhere else . The rules are preety complex.

Most small businesses are taxed as an S Corp which means that theCorporation pays no federal income tax-the net income of the corp flows thorugh to the owners personal return and is taxed at the owners personal income tax rate.
Then the average w2 earner has to have recourse to other deductions to reduce his income. Otherwise the code is skewed in favor of those who can claim all their income as a propietorship and take deductions to pay less. And if that w2 earner’s income is below the deductions and credits he qualifies for he pays no taxes, fair and square.
 
the simple issue is this - If businesses are taxed fairly why can’t we all report are taxes calculated the same why? Certainly we can subtract our expenses from our revenue then calculate the taxes on that income rather than be taxed on our revenue.
 
What deductions do you get to take as a business owner that you don’t get to take if you were a w2 employee? When, I work for my employer, the employer has to pay for my office space, phone, computer, health insurance, etc. A business owner would have to pay for these things out of revenue and they would be deductible. The employee doesn’t have to deduct them because they are never counted as income in the first place.

I am not sure what this has to do with the flat tax? We have a progressive income tax and we seem to be able to define what income is. If we can define income with a progressive tax, why can’t it be done for a flat tax?
I am opposed to a flat tax. my point was when people say we should just pay a flat tax on our income they really dont know what goes into calucalting income-they think in terms of their W2 when in reality it is much more complex that that.
 
the simple issue is this - If businesses are taxed fairly why can’t we all report are taxes calculated the same why? Certainly we can subtract our expenses from our revenue then calculate the taxes on that income rather than be taxed on our revenue.
You can subtract your non-reimbursed business expenses from your revenue.-that is that portion that exceeds 2% of you adjusted gross income. You also have to itemeize to get it.

As far as is it fair? Of course not-the tax code is the monster it is because congress uses it to reward their friends and punish their enemies. It is so convoluted now that 48% of the populace pays no federal income tax. Now is that “fair”
 
You can subtract your non-reimbursed business expenses from your revenue.-that is that portion that exceeds 2% of you adjusted gross income. You also have to itemeize to get it.

As far as is it fair? Of course not-the tax code is the monster it is because congress uses it to reward their friends and punish their enemies. It is so convoluted now that 48% of the populace pays no federal income tax. Now is that “fair”
Careful how you parse as most of those people pay high Federal Taxes. These Taxes are labeled in many ways and mostly based on income. The tax is not labeled as Federal Income Tax. Most of them pay a higher percentage of taxes than businesses. How about to stimulate the economy we rebate 3 months of FICA(both sides) to anybody who paid 3 monthes or more FICA the last year?
 
Careful how you parse as most of those people pay high Federal Taxes. These Taxes are labeled in many ways and mostly based on income. The tax is not labeled as Federal Income Tax. Most of them pay a higher percentage of taxes than businesses. How about to stimulate the economy we rebate 3 months of FICA(both sides) to anybody who paid 3 monthes or more FICA the last year?
I think the whole idea of a stimulus package is a joke. Its just spending money to prove to the public that the Govt “cares.” Ill take it if they give it to me but a $1,200 check would not make any difference to me at all.Save the money to use on those who will be most effected if and when a recession occurs.
 
You can subtract your non-reimbursed business expenses from your revenue.-that is that portion that exceeds 2% of you adjusted gross income. You also have to itemeize to get it.

As far as is it fair? Of course not-the tax code is the monster it is because congress uses it to reward their friends and punish their enemies. It is so convoluted now that 48% of the populace pays no federal income tax. Now is that “fair”
And under your proposal it would be so convoluted that the corporation or firm could write off things against income to possibly reduce his taxable income to nothing while the w2 earner doesn’t have that opportunity. So why are you opposed to a flat percentage? It would be the only fair way to tax income. Bob, did you ever think that maybe those 48% are just getting by on what they earn that to force them to pay a tax just to pay tax would be an undue burden?
 
And under your proposal it would be so convoluted that the corporation or firm could write off things against income to possibly reduce his taxable income to nothing while the w2 earner doesn’t have that opportunity. So why are you opposed to a flat percentage? It would be the only fair way to tax income. Bob, did you ever think that maybe those 48% are just getting by on what they earn that to force them to pay a tax just to pay tax would be an undue burden?
I dont have a propoasl Jim. And the questions you ask point out the problem of a flat tax-that is how do you determine what is the income the flat tax should be applied against.
 
And under your proposal it would be so convoluted that the corporation or firm could write off things against income to possibly reduce his taxable income to nothing while the w2 earner doesn’t have that opportunity. So why are you opposed to a flat percentage? It would be the only fair way to tax income. Bob, did you ever think that maybe those 48% are just getting by on what they earn that to force them to pay a tax just to pay tax would be an undue burden?
Now a few posts back, you seemed to support a flat tax. Are you against it now?
 
Now a few posts back, you seemed to support a flat tax. Are you against it now?
Of course not. But it must be on all income. It can’t give some permission to deduct things while someone else isn’t allowed to. Otherwise some might end up paying a lower percentage tax and then it wouldn’t be a flat tax.
 
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