Will faithful be taught liturgical prayers in Latin and sing Greg. Chant?

[Cathryn]

The Holy Father is calling for the faithful to learn some latin, but will there be a resistance to his call? There seems to be some disdain and a lack of willingness to learn by some. I know of one fellow parishoner who told me he would not go back to a Novus Ordo mass at another parish because some of the prayers were recited in latin. He added that he never would have become a Catholic 6 years ago if he knew there would be any latin. Will education of the faithful by our future priests help overcome this reluctance? I would like to hear others views on what the Holy Father is calling for.

“Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.” (184) Pope Benedict XVI

POST-SYNODAL
APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS
OF THE HOLY FATHER
BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY,
CONSECRATED PERSONS
AND THE LAY FAITHFUL
ON THE EUCHARIST
AS THE SOURCE AND SUMMIT
OF THE CHURCH’S LIFE AND MISSION

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The Holy Father is calling for the faithful to learn some latin, but will there be a resistance to his call? There seems to be some disdain and a lack of willingness to learn by some. I know of one fellow parishoner who told me he would not go back to a Novus Ordo mass at another parish because some of the prayers were recited in latin. He added that he never would have become a Catholic 6 years ago if he knew there would be any latin. Will education of the faithful by our future priests help overcome this reluctance? I would like to hear others views on what the Holy Father is calling for.

I would hope so!

 

[japhy]

The Holy Father is calling for the faithful to learn some latin, but will there be a resistance to his call? There seems to be some disdain and a lack of willingness to learn by some. I know of one fellow parishoner who told me he would not go back to a Novus Ordo mass at another parish because some of the prayers were recited in latin. He added that he never would have become a Catholic 6 years ago if he knew there would be any latin. Will education of the faithful by our future priests help overcome this reluctance? I would like to hear others views on what the Holy Father is calling for.

I hope the resistance to Latin diminishes over the next few years. I hope Summorum Pontificum leads to a generation of priests who celebrate both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Form of Mass with the same reverence and sense of the sacred. I hope these priests value the Latin language and Gregorian Chant; I hope the priests speak (or chant!) much of the ordinary of the Ordinary Form in Latin and encourage their directors of liturgical music to incorporate more Gregorian Chant in the Mass.

Please, God?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Holy Father is calling for the faithful to learn some latin, but will there be a resistance to his call? There seems to be some disdain and a lack of willingness to learn by some. I know of one fellow parishoner who told me he would not go back to a Novus Ordo mass at another parish because some of the prayers were recited in latin. He added that he never would have become a Catholic 6 years ago if he knew there would be any latin. Will education of the faithful by our future priests help overcome this reluctance? I would like to hear others views on what the Holy Father is calling for.

All the faithful will be doing is mimicking the Latin prayers they read and will have little understanding of what they’re saying.

In the old days of Pre-Vatican II. Latin training in the seminaries was more than just a familiarity. Most became fluent in Latin.

Today, I’m not sure there are enough teachers of Latin, that could bring priest up to a fluent level of the language. There certainly isn’t enough to get the Catholic population familiar, never mind fluent.

Jim

 

[scylla]

I mimic English english prayers all the time, it just takes memorization and I mimic the Lords Prayer when they say it in English at Mass.
Over time I have learned what the words mean and associate that with the meaning, then I understood, pretty simple.

Same thing with Latin, it is easy, except for those who don’t like it.
My six year old knows some already, why the resistance? I am not fluent and she has learned from me.

The resistance is not because of obedience, but based upon bigotry and ignorance.

Scylla

 

[Brendan]

My 9 year old and my 6 year old know several prayers in Latin, and you know what, they understand them to the same theological depth as they know their English prayers.

The fact is, the Second Vatican Council mandated that the faithful know and be able to say or chant the prayers of Mass IN LATIN.

Jim, are you really trying to say that Vatican II didn’t know what it was talking about when it gave that mandate?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My 9 year old and my 6 year old know several prayers in Latin, and you know what, they understand them to the same theological depth as they know their English prayers.

The fact is, the Second Vatican Council mandated that the faithful know and be able to say or chant the prayers of Mass IN LATIN.

Jim, are you really trying to say that Vatican II didn’t know what it was talking about when it gave that mandate?

Your children are an exception. But please don’t try and tell us that they understand Latin as well as they do English.

Even in the 1950’s when I was growing up, for the most part, the one’s who learned the parts of the Mass in Latin other than the priest, were the altar boys. But even the altar boys only memorised the words, they didn’t understand Latin. The majority of Catholics, either sat there and listened, or read the words from their missal, which they didn’t understand all that much.

Few knew Latin prayers equal to that of their own language. In fact, only the parts of the Mass were taught in Latin. Other prayers were taught in English. Of course there were the exceptions where some people learned prayers in Latin.

You know, I’m almost willing to bet, that fundamentalist who desire TLM’s only, demand that immigrants to the USA, learn to speak English, so that they can understand what is going on. Why so different in the Mass, where its more important for a person to understand what is going on?

Jim

 

[BlestOne]

The Holy Father is calling for the faithful to learn some latin, but will there be a resistance to his call? There seems to be some disdain and a lack of willingness to learn by some. I know of one fellow parishoner who told me he would not go back to a Novus Ordo mass at another parish because some of the prayers were recited in latin. He added that he never would have become a Catholic 6 years ago if he knew there would be any latin. Will education of the faithful by our future priests help overcome this reluctance? I would like to hear others views on what the Holy Father is calling for.

I would hope so!

Brother Rich,
What part do you hope for?
In my part of the US it seems the people are wanting the Latin, Gregorian chant and all things to do with a more conservative and faithful congregation. It would seem odd to me if the priests are not wanting it as well. My own kids have taken it upon themselves to learn some of their prayers in Latin and they are begging me to find a tridentine mass for them to attend… I never complain when a 16 and 17 yo want to go to mass…

 

[Sarabande]

I mimic English english prayers all the time, it just takes memorization and I mimic the Lords Prayer when they say it in English at Mass.
Over time I have learned what the words mean and associate that with the meaning, then I understood, pretty simple.

You make a good point. When I was a child, along with all of my other classmates, all of the prayers we learned in English were basically mimicked. Most of us didn’t put much thought into what the actual words meant. We had an idea, but I didn’t understand the Angelus, for instance, when I was 8. All of the prayers we said at mass didn’t fully sink in either - and I was one of the really religious kids who paid attention in religion class and wanted to become a religious. As I got older and began to really think about the meaning, I wasn’t mimicking them. The same with Latin. I didn’t start learning the Latin prayers until college where the cathedral that I sung in choir did a Latin NO every first and third Sunday. Granted, I had some background in the Italian language, so some of it was fairly similar. For the first two or three masses, the prayers were mimicked. Now, I would say they are equal to my English. When I taught music, I also taught my music students the chants in Latin and explained the meanings, etc. If you do it the right way, it really isn’t as daunting as some would believe. And actually, singing in Latin will make it much more easy to learn, just as it is easier to sing in other languages rather than to just recite.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I mimic English english prayers all the time, it just takes memorization and I mimic the Lords Prayer when they say it in English at Mass.

You mimiced English prayers by choice. However, once you chose to understand, language was not an added barrier to understanding.

If you are not fluent in Latin, it will only exacerbate the difficulties in understanding the prayers.

Jim

 

[Sarabande]

… and to answer Cathryn’s question, I think that if you have enthusiastic priests wanting to really teach it, it will lessen the reluctance. I know in my diocese, I’m finding that the priests of my generation (20s-30s) and slightly older are more willing and wanting to truly learn Latin. I’m not saying it’s going to be easy, but with a better attitude it can be done. I’m also not saying that we should only have TLM either. I love the TLM and I’m also fine with the NO. But I do believe it is important to learn Latin, especially since it is encouraged by the Church. All of my Jewish friends and some relatives know their Hebrew or at least understand their prayers. My Armenian friends know their Armenian for their mass, even though most speak basically only English and a little Armenian. My mother’s family all had to be dually or triple fluent in languages or dialects. Yes, it will be harder for older people, but it will be easier for youngsters - our next generation. My generation was practically lost, so we need to maybe go back to basics. Start 'em young. It’ll make it much easier. And please, I’m not being some wide-eyed idealist kid thinking that everything was better when we had Latin. That’s totally not where I’m coming from.

 

[Sarabande]

You mimiced English prayers by choice. However, once you chose to understand, language was not an added barrier to understanding.

If you are not fluent in Latin, it will only exacerbate the difficulties in understanding the prayers.

Jim

I’m just having a hard time understanding this. In my training as a musician, even if I’m not totally fluent in a language, I have to know the exact meaning of every word I sing - that means learning scores of hundreds of pages of nothing but Italian, German, French, etc. I’ve had my training in all the languages, and can get by elementary-wise, but I’m not totally fluent. BUT I’d better know exactly what is being said or sung in whatever I’m performing. I guess my experience is different - I guess also because I grew up with one part of my family who was bi-lingual or tri-lingual I’m just used to being surrounded by different languages all the time. I just can’t comprehend that just because one is not totally fluent there will be horrible difficulties. It’s like learning how to understand Shakespeare. If you have enough classes in it, you can pretty much understand all of the language or at least most and really appreciate it. If classes are put in place for our next generation starting out when they are very young, the same will happen for them.

 

[mercygate]

Ask my sixth graders! They are learning the sign of the cross, the Our Father, and the Hail Mary in Latin. And believe-you-me, they will KNOW what the Latin words mean by the end of the term!

 

[japhy]

You mimiced English prayers by choice. However, once you chose to understand, language was not an added barrier to understanding.

If you are not fluent in Latin, it will only exacerbate the difficulties in understanding the prayers.

I simply don’t think that’s true. I do not “know” Latin. I do not know about conjugations, declensions, etc., but I know what Gloria Patri et Filio et Spiritui Sancto; sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum means. I know what In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti means. And I know there’s a reason it’s “Patri” in one and “Patris” in the other, and I know which to use when, because I’ve learned those prayers by heart.

When I am reading or singing Gregorian Chant, I look for a translation for parts I do not understand, but more and more I am finding I already get the gist of a prayer or chant. The more exposure I have to Latin, the more comfortable I am with it.

(I also know that, if I’m praying the Gloria Patri in Latin with other people, they’re going to say it the same way as I do. We won’t need to worry how we each personally interpret “in saecula saeculorum”… is it “unto ages of ages”, or “world without end”, or “now and forever”?)

 

[Sarabande]

Ask my sixth graders! They are learning the sign of the cross, the Our Father, and the Hail Mary in Latin. And believe-you-me, they will KNOW what the Latin words mean by the end of the term!

I agree. My 1st through 8th graders all understood the Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei and Mortem Tuuam and chanted it pretty well. This was after two years of “drilling” it into them during choir. You could ask them what it meant in English and they would tell you. And they chanted it beautifully at my nuptial mass loud and clear.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m just having a hard time understanding this. In my training as a musician, even if I’m not totally fluent in a language, I have to know the exact meaning of every word I sing - that means learning scores of hundreds of pages of nothing but Italian, German, French, etc. I’ve had my training in all the languages, and can get by elementary-wise, but I’m not totally fluent. BUT I’d better know exactly what is being said or sung in whatever I’m performing. I guess my experience is different - I guess also because I grew up with one part of my family who was bi-lingual or tri-lingual I’m just used to being surrounded by different languages all the time. I just can’t comprehend that just because one is not totally fluent there will be horrible difficulties. It’s like learning how to understand Shakespeare. If you have enough classes in it, you can pretty much understand all of the language or at least most and really appreciate it. If classes are put in place for our next generation starting out when they are very young, the same will happen for them.

When I was in Catholic School, 1958, the nuns kept us after school on Fridays, to learn the Latin hymns that we were to sing at that Mass on Sunday. We did not learn the meaning of the words, but merely memorised the words. We mimicked what the good sister sang, period.

Your level of language and music is much higher than the average Catholic sitting in the pews of an American Church.

But, you’ll probably be happy to know that if the TLM(God Forbid) becomes the ordinary, you’ll be the one of the few who will be singing and know what you’re singing.

Jim

 

[mercygate]

I agree. My 1st through 8th graders all understood the Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei and Mortem Tuuam and chanted it pretty well. This was after two years of “drilling” it into them during choir. You could ask them what it meant in English and they would tell you. And they chanted it beautifully at my nuptial mass loud and clear.

:bounce: :clapping: :dancing: Lovely!

 

[scylla]

When I was in Catholic School, 1958, the nuns kept us after school on Fridays, to learn the Latin hymns that we were to sing at that Mass on Sunday. We did not learn the meaning of the words, but merely memorised the words. We mimicked what the good sister sang, period.

Your level of language and music is much higher than the average Catholic sitting in the pews of an American Church.

But, you’ll probably be happy to know that if the TLM(God Forbid) becomes the ordinary, you’ll be the one of the few who will be singing and know what you’re singing.

Jim

Jim, I did not have the luxury of going to Catholic School, that must have been great.

I have 2 questions for you,
Do you know what “In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti” means?

Did you learn any latin at all?

(please give me a succint answer, as I am just curious)

God Bless
Scylla

 

[pyropam]

I’m a fairly new Catholic Convert (Easter 2007). I guess, I’m really confused as to why several of you want to have Mass in a different language (Latin).

When our priest announced that he did not have to turn his back on his people to face God, and he was not planning to have a Mass in Latin, He received a standing ovation from a crowd of about 400 (young and old).

Not one person sat during the ovation! He then told us where we could go if we for some reason wanted to go to a Latin Mass.

As he puts it… I don’t pray in a foreign language, when I talk to God, I talk to him in English. I don’t speak to anyone daily in a foreign language, I speak to others in English, so why should we say Mass in a foreign language.

Do you not feel that God hears your prayers in your daily language? Why do people assume that God understands “Latin” more than he does your everyday language?

I too would never have come into the Church had the first Mass I attended been in Latin.

 

[Pious_Mat]

What about the fact that nowadays, most Catholics don’t completely understand the prayer in English. Ask the average persons in the pews what “thy kingdom come” means, and you’ll probably get a confused shrug by way of reply.

Just like the “participation” (read: mindless mumbling that people don’t think about and just do for appearance’s sake) at the NO mass.

Although if one readily applies oneself, it is easier to understand the prayers in English, if one applies oneself, it can’t be much harder to learn the meaning it Latin.

The fact of the matter is that Catholics ought to at least be somewhat familiar with the language of their Church. To not do so is much the same as moving to the United States, becoming a citizen, and still refusing to learn even basic English words such Yes and No.