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Will faithful be taught liturgical prayers in Latin and sing Greg. Chant?
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Br.Rich_SFO
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I hope that parishes and diocese get some kind of training in liturgical Latin together soon and offer it to the faithful. So that it can be incorporated into the Mass better. Many do not realize many of the Christmas songs of old were in Latin, people sang them understnading their meaning.
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Cathryn
Guest
My favorite Christmas hymn is the “O Come All Ye Faithful” which was translated from the same hymn in the Latin. It was sung in Latin for 7 hundred years before being sung in english.
Thank God and our Holy Father these hymns and Gregorian Chant are not going to be abandoned. This is the language of the Church. The worldwide Catholic Church can sing “Adeste, Fideles” together in our common language this Christmas!! It’s an outward expression of what Catholic means.
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Sarabande
Guest
That’s a shame that they didn’t teach you completely. That is why I taught the exact meaning of the Latin to my students so that they wouldn’t just be mimicking.
Granted, that is probably true, although not as high as others I know. I sometimes feel like such a doofus when I’m around those “brains”.
haha!I’m fine with either the TLM or the NO and have attended both. I have nothing against the NO having been brought up in that. So, I do not hope that only one form will stay. I’m quite happy that I can attend both now more easily. But, as I said, if there are dedicated people out there who are willing to really teach, the next generations can easily reach a higher level of comprehension, even more so than me. In my city, we actually have Catholic organizations providing courses in Latin and Greek for a number of years, so it is happening at least over here.
God bless!
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mercygate
Guest
Ditto, ditto, ditto! I attend the TLM once a month: GREAT schola cantorum of 6 men. The congregation joins in singing the Ordinary when the chants are familiar (e.g., Missa de Angelis, Missa Dominicalis, Missa Marialis).That’s a shame that they didn’t teach you completely. That is why I taught the exact meaning of the Latin to my students so that they wouldn’t just be mimicking.
Granted, that is probably true, although not as high as others I know. I sometimes feel like such a doofus when I’m around those “brains”.
I’m fine with either the TLM or the NO and have attended both. I have nothing against the NO having been brought up in that. So, I do not hope that only one form will stay. I’m quite happy that I can attend both now more easily. But, as I said, if there are dedicated people out there who are willing to really teach, the next generations can easily reach a higher level of comprehension, even more so than me. In my city, we actually have Catholic organizations providing courses in Latin and Greek for a number of years, so it is happening at least over here.
My NO parish has a 93% abuse-free liturgy, so it’s not bad. And I am NOT willing to give up the NO Lectionary!
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Cat
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I agree with this.
It has nothing to do with bigotry or ignorance.
I just don’t see the point of Latin or any language that isn’t my heart language.
I don’t think it’s a particularly beautiful language. I don’t think that God hears our prayers better if they are in Latin.
I do value tradition, and I can see the value of using a prayer in a foreign language as a tribute to our forbears, and as an outward sign of unity with all the saints in the Church.
But I don’t get thrilled by it as many of you do.
That doesn’t make me biased or ignorant or stubborn or irreverent, or any of the other names that are sometimes levied against those of us who prefer our own heart language.
There is absolutely no mandate from the Church commanding Christians to learn Latin and use it. It is a preference of the Holy Father, but that is not dogma.
When I was Protestant, the missionaries used to visit our churches, and usually they taught at least one phrase or song in the language of the people they were working with . I never saw the point then. I usually forgot it by the time I left the building.
I still feel that way. Latin, to me, is not a conduit to deeper worship.
I have total respect for those of you who like Latin prayers, songs, and Mass. I am thrilled that you will hopefully have more opportunities to attend TLM, and I am impressed by your devotion to mastering this language.
**I ask that you please have the same respect for me in my preference of my heart language. ** Please don’t accuse me and others of being biased, bigoted, uncatechized, or ignorant.
And please don’t judge us when those classes are offered, and only a few people show up. A lack of interest in Latin does not indicate that the Catholic Church is deteriorating.
BTW, I had a year of high school Latin, and five years of German. Both of my children attended a private school where they were required to learn French from grade school through high school. So I am not a language-o-phobe. I just don’t see the point. The learning of foreign languge was a good way for me to master ENGLISH, and that was my main reason for taking these classes back then.
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BlestOne
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Oh Thank the Lord, I was afraid you meant it the other way!!! My priest goes for training in November, it was the soonest he could get in! We are all excited!
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Brendan
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I would agree completely. I go over what the words mean to my children. Not only can they let you know what “Gratia Plena” and “benedictus fructus ventris, Iesu” mean exactly, but it also give us the chance to cover how “quotidianum” is used in one Gospel but “supersubstantialem” is used in another.JimR-OCDS:
That’s a shame that they didn’t teach you completely. That is why I taught the exact meaning of the Latin to my students so that they wouldn’t just be mimicking.
I can then relate that back to how they learned "Transubstantial’ in their First Communion prep, and they can now see exactly WHAT kind of bread we are to ask for daily.
That’s more than most of your average folks in the pew learn.
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Brendan
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Cat,
If you don’t like Latin, that’s fine, that part is strictly a personal preference.
But do keep in mind that Vatican II said that you should be able to say the prayers and responses of Mass IN LATIN.
Pope Benedict re-interated that recently in Sacramentum Caritatis .
They are both pretty clear on that, if one is mentally able to memorize these responses, one has that obligation to do so, if one is to follow the teachings of the Church as articulated by Vatican II.
Whether you like or not, or if you don’t think it has any value for the Church is all immaterial.Chalk it up to penitential suffering if you have to.
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JimR-OCDS
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In the Name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
I know now, more so because I attend Mass at a Benedictine Monastery, where they say the parts of the Mass in Latin. I have a Roman Missal, which has Latin on one page, and English on the other.
The Mass is beautiful, but I also go to a Trappist Monastery, where they say the Liturgy of the Hours and the Mass, in English. I enjoy the Trappist English services much better than the Benedictine.
Growing up in Catholic School in pre-Vatican II, we mimicked the Latin words. We didn’t learn Latin, until High-School, which by that time I was in a public school.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
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I hope the Pope and those who are pushing for the TLM to become the ordinary, realise that not everyone has the aptitude, to learn a different language. There are old people, simple minded people, and mildly retarded people who attend Mass, and know the Mass in English. What will you do with them, when they are forced to attend Mass in Latin, which the are not able to learn?
The Mass is for everyone, not just the intellectual elite. Keep this in mind when you demand that the Mass should be said in Latin.
Jim
The Mass is for everyone, not just the intellectual elite. Keep this in mind when you demand that the Mass should be said in Latin.
Jim
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Brendan
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As I mentioned before, children learn these responses. I hardly consider my 7 year old to be a member of the ‘intellectual elite’
So yes, maybe people without less reasoning ablilty than a 7 year old would be exempt from Vatican II’s instructions in this matter, but since that is also the reasoning abilily required by Canon Law for admission to the Eucharist in the Latin Church, the available popluation for learning the Latin responses is pretty high.
In addition, the local Catholic elementary teaches the kids their prayers in Spanish starting at kindergarten. If they can learn their “Padre Nuestro”, why not their “Pater Noster” as well.
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chrisb
Guest
Grace and Peace,
Personally, I don’t know a lick of Latin but I adore our Latin Church and I would welcome the opportunity to learn Latin.
Peace and God Bless.
Personally, I don’t know a lick of Latin but I adore our Latin Church and I would welcome the opportunity to learn Latin.
Peace and God Bless.
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japhy
Guest
Indeed!
Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites. - Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy), 36.1
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. - Sacrosanctum Concilium, 54
Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. - Sacramentum Caritatis (Pope Benedict’s recent Apostolic Exhortation), 62
Pastors of souls should take care that besides the vernacular “the faithful may also be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them”. - Musicam Sacram, 47
The use of the Latin language, customary in a considerable portion of the Church, is a manifest and beautiful sign of unity, as well as an effective antidote for any corruption of doctrinal truth. - Mediator Dei, 60
Pastors shall carefully see to it that the Christian faithful, especially members of lay religious institutes, also know how to recite or sing together in Latin, mainly with simple melodies, the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass proper to them. - Inter Oecumenici (which prepared for the Missal of 1965), 59
Nevertheless, there are also those people who, having been educated on the basis of the old liturgy in Latin, experience the lack of this “one language,” which in all the world was an expression of the unity of the Church and through its dignified character elicited a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery. It is therefore necessary to show not only understanding but also full respect towards these sentiments and desires. As far as possible these sentiments and desires are to be accommodated, as is moreover provided for in the new dispositions. The Roman Church has special obligations towards Latin, the splendid language of ancient Rome, and she must manifest them whenever the occasion presents itself. - Dominicae Cenae, 10
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Cat
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The way I read it is that learning the responses in Latin is not a requirement, but a preference.
You know, those of you who aren’t former Protestants don’t have a clue, do you?
It has taken me three years to learn the responses and some of the prayers in Mass in ENGLISH! I still stumble through certain prayers like the St. Michael’s prayer–I have memorized it at least a hundred times, but then when it comes time to say it, it’s gone. No idea where to start). I have tried over and over again to memorize the Memorare, the prayer for the dead, etc.–the brain just won’t cooperate.
This isn’t just a problem with “church” stuff. I have never been able to memorize piano music. Ever. That is the major reason I changed my college major from music to medical technology–I can’t memorize music.
As for medical technology–I have worked in the lab for almost thirty years, yet I STILL have to have a written procedure when I perform certain tests. I have done these tests for 30 stinkin’ years, but I don’t have the procedures memorized. Other techs do it all by memory, but I am strictly by the book.
Even though I am a musician, I still don’t know the familiar Latin phrases like “Agnus Dei” and “Miserere,” etc. When I attend a Mass where these phrases are used, I stand there like a dummy and stumble through them. I’ve heard or sung them thousands of times, and it just doesn’t sink in!!!
I just don’t have a very good memory!
So what you are saying is that I should spend my remaining years on this earth struggling to remember phrases in Latin that mean NOTHING to me, rather than spend the time doing good works and serving God using the gifts I have been given?
To me, this would be a waste of time, especially since it is not a “command” from the Pope or the Lord Jesus.
Give me a book, and I will follow along and pronounce the Latin phrases phonetically, with only a vague idea of what they mean.
Frankly, I think that sounds like a terrible way to do Mass. Never knowing what anything means, just reciting the phrases. But like Brendan said, penitential suffering. Our Lord went through much worse.
I hope it doesn’t come to that. I don’t think it will. I honestly think a LOT of people, including cradle Catholics, feel the same way I do about Latin.
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chrisb
Guest
Grace and Peace CAT,
Class of '04 too!!!
God Bless.
Class of '04 too!!!
God Bless.
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Brendan
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It’s a command from the Vatican II Council. Take that on what level of authority you choose.
One thing that might seriously help is to chant the prayers. Music is a great tool for memorization. How often have you finding yourself singing along to a old song you haven’t heard in years.
That was a BIG reason monks chanted the liturgy. There were certainly many, many monks through the ages who had the same difficulty with memorization that you have, but it is substantially easier when set to music, and chant in particular.
One of the ways I practice is to chant the Rosary, this is really the ideal way of saying the Rosary, as the verbal prayers themselves are really a chant that allows the mind to focus on the Mysteries.
One reasource that I would recommend is Jubilate Deo. In 1973, Pope Paul VI issued a list of simple chants that every Catholic should know ( his phrasing), note that this too was after Vatican II.
The music is simple, here is a site with free MP3 of the music.
adoremus.org/hymns/
Start with the Pater Noster. There are enought true cognates in that prayer that you should be able to understand what each (major) word means.
Then try the Salve Regina ( this is one I use at the end of the Rosary)
Now Cat, that’s being a bit dramatic, don’t you think?
Do you really not understand what “Ave Maria” means, or “In nomni Patris, et Fili, et Spritus Sanctus”?
I didn’t grow up knowing this stuff, or even being taught it. I learned it out of necessity. First of all, when I started reading the Vatican II documents, it became clear that I was sold a bill of goods in the Catholic eductation. It didn’t match up to what the Popes or the Council itself taught. So I started learning the Latin responses.
I had never been good and languages, I barely cleared the two years of high school Spanish that was necessary for graduation. And I specifically chose a college that had no foreign langauge requirement.
But that didn’t mean I could not see where Latin corrisponds to English ( true cognates). It am be no means fluent in Latin, or even know how to make even a basic conversation. But that doesn’t mean that a reasonably intelligent person cannot understand what they are saying. Catholics have been doing that for millenia with little or no difficulty.
Later, I began a phase in my carrer when I was travelling globally. Instead of trying to learn enough Korean, Dutch, German, Italian, Amenian etc… to be able to understand Mass in those countries, I simply learned the Latin responses, (and what they meant). So now, I could go to Mass in each of those countries, seek out the local Latin Mass and participate there. In that way, I didn’t have to do what you described ( not understanding what is being said), or worse, I couldn’t even parrot the responses.
But all that travel opened my eyes to how exactly unneighborly we are in the US. We are so danged proud of our ‘vernacular’ Masses, we forget that there might be others in our midst who don’t speak English or Spanish. We aren’t about to lift a finger and give them a chance to worship in the same language as us. We refuse to instruct our kids in a language that they may worship in world wide, and would rather have a stranger sit alone while we pray in English, than to take the time and effort to learn a language more universal to our Church and all pray together.
And make no mistake, they do know it, better than we did. I had a much easier time finding a Latin (N.O.) Mass in virtually every other country other than my own. I’m not saying that every Mass should be in Latin, but why not follow the teachings of the Church and give everyone the opportunity to learn and practice the universal responses. Maybe if a parish has 3 Masses on Sundays, have one be in Latin? And throw in the Sanctus or Gloria in Latin a few times each month in the others.
This is one other thing that Pope Benedict said in Sacramentum Charitas, (echoing Pope John XXIII) that in an increasing global world, Catholics at interlanguage events should worship in Latin, as it (at least elsewhere) is commonly taught, and gives no preference to one person’s language over another.
Is it too much to ask that we make an effort to be part of a world wide Church and to welcoming to foreign visitors, as I was made welcome in so many places.
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BobP123
Guest
Why was this not a problem prior to Vatican II? You yourself said you went to a public high school where I presume you learned some Latin. I had several public high school friends who knew the Latin prayers better than I. I think some of those non-Catholics would put a lot of Catholics to shame today.
If Agatha Christie loved the Latin Mass, then why shouldn’t Catholics?
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JimR-OCDS
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It was a problem before Vatican II, which is why Vatican II changed it and allowed the Mass to be said in the language of the people. The entire purpose for the change in the Sacred Liturgy, was to bring the people into closer participation in the Mass. Latin was a barrier for the majority in this case.
I did not take Latin in high school, it was not required for me.
Also, knowing how to recite a prayer in Latin and understanding the words are different things. When I was in 4th grade learning to be an altar boy, I too could recite the parts of the Mass in Latin. I had little idea about what the words meant, because all we did is memorise the words, not the meaning. This is what you’ll have today, even from the priest who say the Mass in Latin, who did not study Latin, but merely mimic the words.
Jim
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