Will Female Altar Servers be Supressed?

[AltarMan]

Given his obvious drive, do you think that the use of female altar servers will be supressed sometime during the Pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI?

While I am very aware that the Church does allow the use of female altar servers subject to the approvals of the local bishop, and the individual celebrants of the Mass, my own personal feeling is that it is an extremely pernicious (albiet approved) practice for two reasons.

First, it followed widespread abuse of using females in place of altar boys long before it was approved by the Church. That makes for a rather sleazy heritage.

Second, serving at the altar is perhaps the single most wonderful thing a male can do to discern a possible vocation to the priesthood or the permanent diaconate. That strongly suggests that every altar serving position should go to males who might just be discerning a vocation.

(Don’t have enough males? Work a little harder to recruit them! God didn’t stop sending us vocations – we just tend not to listen as well as we once did, back when we had resources like all-male altar serving societies for instance.)

 

[LSK]

I hope not. I hope that the practice will be allowed to continue. While I understand that it may be a wonderful way for young males to discern a vocation to the priesthood, it can also help young females to discern a religious vocation as well. I believe that is why the Holy Spirit lead our leaders to allow this practice in the first place.

 

[Orionthehunter]

AltarMan:

Given his obvious drive, do you think that the use of female altar servers will be supressed sometime during the Pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI?

While I am very aware that the Church does allow the use of female altar servers subject to the approvals of the local bishop, and the individual celebrants of the Mass, my own personal feeling is that it is an extremely pernicious (albiet approved) practice for two reasons.

First, it followed widespread abuse of using females in place of altar boys long before it was approved by the Church. That makes for a rather sleazy heritage.

Second, serving at the altar is perhaps the single most wonderful thing a male can do to discern a possible vocation to the priesthood or the permanent diaconate. That strongly suggests that every altar serving position should go to males who might just be discerning a vocation.

(Don’t have enough males? Work a little harder to recruit them! God didn’t stop sending us vocations – we just tend not to listen as well as we once did, back when we had resources like all-male altar serving societies for instance.)

After participating in a golf tourney, I was sitting around with 8-10 guys drinking a beer or two. Anyway, Michelle Wie came up and her playing in men’s PGA events. Everyone had an opinion. After they were done expressing their thoughts, I polled the group. 100% of the men who didn’t want Michelle to play in men’s events had no daughters. 100% of the men who said that she was free to play had daughters.

My point is that people’s ideas on this are going to be driven by their perspective. I agree that the Church isn’t required to make decisions that are popular or politically correct, but I rhetorically ask a few questions:

1. This will be divisive among the flock. Is this really an issue we want to cause dissent?
2. For those who believe altar serving leads to vocations (I am one of them), don’t you think it can positively affect girls to pursue vocations? The Church also has a critical need for female vocations.
3. We belong to the Universal Church. Do we want to send a message to girls that they have no place in the Church?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

LSK:

I hope not. I hope that the practice will be allowed to continue. While I understand that it may be a wonderful way for young males to discern a vocation to the priesthood, it can also help young females to discern a religious vocation as well. I believe that is why the Holy Spirit lead our leaders to allow this practice in the first place.

I wonder exactly how serving at the altar is supposed to help females discern a reglious vocation. I’m not saying that it can’t, I just fail to see the parallel. In the case of boys and young men, serving at the altar can help one test one’s suitability and attraction to … serving at the altar, albeit later on as an ordained minister.

In the case of girls, no religious vocation, be it active or contemplative (except in the rare case where a cloistered community has recourse only to its females to serve at the altar), would include serving at the altar. There may be teaching, ministering to the poor and sick, or simply constant prayer and assisting at Mass, but I don’t see how serving at the altar can help one discern one’s suitability to these things. Altar servers do not participate any more fully in the Mass than any other person in the pews, so I don’t know how this form of participation is linked to any female religious vocation.

That seems to me like becoming a volunteer firefighter in order to see whether I should pursue a career in law enforcement. Both are public service, but the only enlightenment I can expect from my fire service is the knowledge that I should or should not become a full-time firefighter; nothing as to my “call” to law enforcement. Girls (should) know they can’t be priests or deacons. So that bit of knowledge can be attained without the experience of serving in a role used to foster such vocations.

 

[JNB]

Actually, the parishes that do not allow altar girls tend to have quite a few female religous vocations. Parishes that allow altar girls usually have neither female or male vocations. As for the holy spirit, do not FOOL yourself, altar girls were allowed because of dissent, not anything that was allowed at Vatican II.

LSK:

I hope not. I hope that the practice will be allowed to continue. While I understand that it may be a wonderful way for young males to discern a vocation to the priesthood, it can also help young females to discern a religious vocation as well. I believe that is why the Holy Spirit lead our leaders to allow this practice in the first place.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Will girl altar servers be repressed? I doubt it.

I wonder if His Holiness is at all in favor of them, but the trend in the modern papacy has been to show extreme deference to one’s predecessors, even if you disagree with their actions (case in point, John Paul II noted in Rise, Let Us Be On Our Way that the rite of episcopal ordination used to be richer; he never took any steps to restore that richness, he just used a rite he felt was, at least in part, inferior). While that’s just speculation, I think our popes have seen what havoc rapid change a la the Pauline Mass can wreak and they are reluctant to do anything other than very gradual adjustment. I think if girl servers were to be suppressed, there would probably first be a period where the Holy See got everyo9ne used to the idea, starting by lauding boy servers without more than passing reference to girls, then showing personal preference for only boys, then indicating institutional or normative preference for only boys, then and only then actually suppressing the use of girls.

BTW, I think there already exists an institutional preference for boys, since they are to be encouraged while girls are only allowed, but that point hasn’t exactly been drilled home and most Joe Catholics are entirely unaware of it.

 

[JNB]

Simple. A parish that allows only altar boys also tends to develop more female vocations, period. The arguement is bunk, period.

*** for number 3, women were part of the church before 94, when fenale altar servers were not allowed, and they feel part of the church where altar girls are not allowed. I know it may be though, but it has to be explained that female service at the altar was a result of dissent before 94. Allowing female altar services probably was the worst decsion Pope John Paul II made, and even then, it was allowed on a technicality.

Orionthehunter:

After participating in a golf tourney, I was sitting around with 8-10 guys drinking a beer or two. Anyway, Michelle Wie came up and her playing in men’s PGA events. Everyone had an opinion. After they were done expressing their thoughts, I polled the group. 100% of the men who didn’t want Michelle to play in men’s events had no daughters. 100% of the men who said that she was free to play had daughters.

My point is that people’s ideas on this are going to be driven by their perspective. I agree that the Church isn’t required to make decisions that are popular or politically correct, but I rhetorically ask a few questions:

1. This will be divisive among the flock. Is this really an issue we want to cause dissent?
2. For those who believe altar serving leads to vocations (I am one of them), don’t you think it can positively affect girls to pursue vocations? The Church also has a critical need for female vocations.
3. We belong to the Universal Church. Do we want to send a message to girls that they have no place in the Church?

 

[SnorterLuster]

Well I have a son and a daughter and I wish they would drop the females from serving. Although girls do not serve in my parish, in talking to my relatives in other areas, girl servers have replaced boy servers in their parishes. For many younger boys, they don’t want to partake in activities with girls. The youngsters in my family now look at serving on the altar as a “girl thing” and are no longer interested in serving. So yes, serving should be reserved for boys and hopefully awaken their interest in the priesthood.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Andreas Hofer:

I wonder exactly how serving at the altar is supposed to help females discern a reglious vocation. I’m not saying that it can’t, I just fail to see the parallel. In the case of boys and young men, serving at the altar can help one test one’s suitability and attraction to … serving at the altar, albeit later on as an ordained minister.

In the case of girls, no religious vocation, be it active or contemplative (except in the rare case where a cloistered community has recourse only to its females to serve at the altar), would include serving at the altar. There may be teaching, ministering to the poor and sick, or simply constant prayer and assisting at Mass, but I don’t see how serving at the altar can help one discern one’s suitability to these things. Altar servers do not participate any more fully in the Mass than any other person in the pews, so I don’t know how this form of participation is linked to any female religious vocation.

That seems to me like becoming a volunteer firefighter in order to see whether I should pursue a career in law enforcement. Both are public service, but the only enlightenment I can expect from my fire service is the knowledge that I should or should not become a full-time firefighter; nothing as to my “call” to law enforcement. Girls (should) know they can’t be priests or deacons. So that bit of knowledge can be attained without the experience of serving in a role used to foster such vocations.

I was an altar boy and I am now a husband, father, and grandfather. Serving Mass gave me an understanding of the Mass, allowed me to meet my Priest personally one-on-one, gave me a sense about my obligation to serve the Church, helped me to become more reverrant, exposed me to funerals and weddings of people other than family and let me witness joy and sadness, and probably many other things. I think too much is made about the serving on the altar is in some way being a jr. priest or priest in training. I’m at a loss to understand why girls should be denied these very tangible benefits or how people can’t see how it can lead to their vocations.

Furthermore, as someone who knows three seminarians personally, if you were to talk to them about their vocation, while they would give some credit to being an altar boy, the more critical factors were their family, support and encouragement from their parish, and the invitation to consider the Priesthood from their Pastor. We as laity have more responsibility for the lack of vocations than allowing female servers. Any boy who might be called to the Priesthood isn’t being denied being an altar boy because girls are doing it.

 

[genealogist]

It is very clear that the Vatican was trying to sanitize an abuse. Granted there CAN be altar servers who are female but they came about in a pushy way.

In our archdiocese the rule is there are supposed to be EQUAL numbers of boys AND girls at each Mass or more boys. GIRLS are NEVER to outnumber the altar boys at any specific Mass. That may be the rule but it is ignored and abused again and again. Hardly the environment to breed vocations for the priesthood or religious life.

People should follow the Church’s rules as she is the bride of Christ and not trying to wiggle around all the rules. They really aren’t that tough to follow, are they?

 

[Catholic2003]

Andreas Hofer:

I think if girl servers were to be suppressed, there would probably first be a period where the Holy See got everyo9ne used to the idea, starting by lauding boy servers without more than passing reference to girls, then showing personal preference for only boys, then indicating institutional or normative preference for only boys, then and only then actually suppressing the use of girls.

BTW, I think there already exists an institutional preference for boys, since they are to be encouraged while girls are only allowed, but that point hasn’t exactly been drilled home and most Joe Catholics are entirely unaware of it.

There is currently an institutional preference for boys, but this is different than having an institutional preference for only boys.

 

[yinekka]

You can’t put the genii back into the bottle; female altar servers will never be supressed.

Yes boys are supposed to be enouraged to be altar servers but boys see it as a ‘girly thing’ and don’t want to apply.’ Priests these days are nervous about being around young boys and so don’t go out of their way to encourage boys to be altar servers.

In the USA 80% non clerical ministry is undertaken by females. Female altar servers are just the beginning of this.

 

[AltarMan]

yinekka:

You can’t put the genii back into the bottle; female altar servers will never be supressed.

Yes boys are supposed to be enouraged to be altar servers but boys see it as a ‘girly thing’ and don’t want to apply.’ Priests these days are nervous about being around young boys and so don’t go out of their way to encourage boys to be altar servers.

In the USA 80% non clerical ministry is undertaken by females. Female altar servers are just the beginning of this.

We really have no idea if they will be supressed or not. My guess is that they certainly will be in time – the wording in RS alone strongly suggests this. My question however deals specifically with the current pontificate and I’m still not sure what to think. I’m sure I could answer this better with another year of observing Pope Benedict XVI though.

I know of no priests who are “nervous” around boys and not around girls. They tend to be ill at ease around children or not, period.

Where did you get your 80% number? Can you offer a reputible source? While it might be true, it would likely be because men are the primary bread-winners in most families.

I’m not sure what you mean by “just the beginning of this” but if women do indeed hold 80% of the jobs and given the fact there will never be female clergy (including deacons) I’m not sure where their growth will come from.

 

[Catholic2003]

AltarMan:

I’m not sure what you mean by “just the beginning of this” but if women do indeed hold 80% of the jobs and given the fact there will never be female clergy (including deacons) I’m not sure where their growth will come from.

You sound a lot like the former CA member “Crusader”.

Where do you get the idea that there will never be female deacons?

 

[AltarMan]

Catholic2003:

You sound a lot like the former CA member “Crusader”.

Where do you get the idea that there will never be female deacons?

Just my own opinion. In more specific terms I think the Church is hitting an inflection point right now. It has been sliding downhill for well over 40 years and I see that changing under Pope Benedict XVI. Just look at the results of the recent synod.

Back to the point, one thing I see this Pope determining is that the permanent diaconate has the same status as the priesthood in terms of the Church not having the authority to ordain female deacons. If and when that happens under the current Pope, it will be forever.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

JNB:

Actually, the parishes that do not allow altar girls tend to have quite a few female religous vocations. Parishes that allow altar girls usually have neither female or male vocations. As for the holy spirit, do not FOOL yourself, altar girls were allowed because of dissent, not anything that was allowed at Vatican II.

I’m in agreement on this point. There are going to be a greater number of male and female vocations without female servers.

Not to get off track in the thread, but since the subject was raise…What females need to spark vocations is to have examples of sisters who look to Mother Mary as their role model. When I was growing up, the nuns were plainclothes and were charged up with the women’s ordination thing. It turned me off to their kind of sisterhood, yet back then there wasn’t much I could do about it. If I were under 35, I’d be joining the Dominicans below.

Mary did not use the grace God gave her to challenge the church being established at that time. Rather, she humbled herself quietly and ended up with the greatest responsibility bestowed on any human, aside from Jesus Christ himself. That responsibility: Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum. (Be it done unto me according to your word.)

Seeing this in and around a parish is what inspires female vocations. There are nuns at my parish in full habit and it’s not too hard to see which girls in the parish are discerning.

Take a good look at the very happy young faces on these very young women.

Oblates of Mary

http://www.oblatesofmary.com/images/sistersonstairs.jpg

And, the order in Ann Arbor bursting at the seams with over 40 in formation. These are the Dominicans: Mary Mother of the Eucharist.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Vocations for women are booming in traditional orders, while the more progressive orders simply are not getting that many young. Ditto with the traditional men’s orders like Miles Christi, Fathers of Mercy, etc.

 

[AltarMan]

The above post is GREAT!

 

[Catholic2003]

AltarMan:

Just my own opinion. In more specific terms I think the Church is hitting an inflection point right now. It has been sliding downhill for well over 40 years and I see that changing under Pope Benedict XVI. Just look at the results of the recent synod.

I think Pope Benedict will be more proactive in enforcing Church rules, but I don’t really see him making any significant changes to those rules. The recent synod wasn’t much different than any of the synods under Pope John Paul II.

AltarMan:

Back to the point, one thing I see this Pope determining is that the permanent diaconate has the same status as the priesthood in terms of the Church not having the authority to ordain female deacons. If and when that happens under the current Pope, it will be forever.

Given that Pope John Paul II modestly refrained from making any ex cathedra proclamations, it will be interesting to see if Pope Benedict will break this trend.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Orionthehunter:

After participating in a golf tourney, I was sitting around with 8-10 guys drinking a beer or two. Anyway, Michelle Wie came up and her playing in men’s PGA events. Everyone had an opinion. After they were done expressing their thoughts, I polled the group. 100% of the men who didn’t want Michelle to play in men’s events had no daughters. 100% of the men who said that she was free to play had daughters.

My point is that people’s ideas on this are going to be driven by their perspective. I agree that the Church isn’t required to make decisions that are popular or politically correct, but I rhetorically ask a few questions:

1. This will be divisive among the flock. Is this really an issue we want to cause dissent?
2. For those who believe altar serving leads to vocations (I am one of them), don’t you think it can positively affect girls to pursue vocations? The Church also has a critical need for female vocations.
3. We belong to the Universal Church. Do we want to send a message to girls that they have no place in the Church?

1. This already is divisive among the flock. Just come to my parish hall after Mass and ask everyone what they think of girl altar boys. You’ll hear plenty of divisiveness.
2. The only vocation a girl would want to pursue after serving at the altar is to become a girl priest. Which is fine, seeing as how the Episcopalians can always use a few more girl priests.
3. I can’t believe you threw out this stinky old canard. No place in the Church? Please. :nope:

 

[Dr.Bombay]

And yes, eventually girl altar boys will be supressed. It may not be for another century, but eventually it will happen. All the trendy innovations that attempt to make the Church conform to the world will eventually be tossed on the ash heap of history. Easily forgotten and never mourned.