Will few men be saved?

[Vico]

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Upon what is “salvation” predicated?

1. Is it having the right beliefs?
2. Is it “forgiving others?”
3. Is it loving others?

If 1, infants cannot have any beliefs. The vast majority of humanity does not hold the right beliefs either.

If 2, OK that’s nice, but what does it have to do with Jesus? Why does anyone have to be a Catholic in order to forgive others?

If 3, same issue as 2 above.

Is salvation predicated upon something else? We’ve already established it isn’t predicated upon baptism (not necessary). What is the sine qua non of salvation?

I think the saints and architects of Catholicism had a much more rigorous understanding of what the essential conditions of salvation are, hence the OP. Read the quotes. Gloom and doom abounds, read Pope_St_Leo’s contribution: more doom. I submit that this is the historical and traditional “gospel.” Were they all wrong? If they were wrong about something so important, can the church be trusted? Why?

Also, yes, welcome to this forum. I see that you are a “Catholic in the making.” Consider carefully! I wish I had been given a choice! Obviously that would have been impossible, since infants are incapable of making choices.

Salvation is justification. CCC
1992 … Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. …
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

“A new creature”

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

 

[MatthewTheLess]

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Upon what is “salvation” predicated?

1. Is it having the right beliefs?
2. Is it “forgiving others?”
3. Is it loving others?

If 1, infants cannot have any beliefs. The vast majority of humanity does not hold the right beliefs either.

The lion does not believe either and God is not seeking to condemn it. I agree most people do not hold the belief God is Love. Seems you don’t believe it either.

If 2, OK that’s nice, but what does it have to do with Jesus? Why does anyone have to be a Catholic in order to forgive others?

You don’t have to be a catholic to forgive others, to be a catholic you have to forgive others.

If 3, same issue as 2 above.

Is salvation predicated upon something else? We’ve already established it isn’t predicated upon baptism (not necessary). What is the sine qua non of salvation?

Salvation simply put…
" * If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions."

(Anger and pride are old time friends, some grade A advice do not be angry with the Catholic Church! Be reconciled! And you will find all these questions circling around your mind will go away or be answered.)

I think the saints and architects of Catholicism had a much more rigorous understanding of what the essential conditions of salvation are, hence the OP. Read the quotes. Gloom and doom abounds, read Pope_St_Leo’s contribution: more doom. I submit that this is the historical and traditional “gospel.” Were they all wrong? If they were wrong about something so important, can the church be trusted? Why?

You are bringing up saints as if you believe what they say and you are in conformity with the teaching. All saints participated in communion and have written many wonderful things about the Eucharist. But you yourself said you no longer participate in communion. So you are not in conformity or in the community of the saints. So why bring them up? Why not wipeout everything every saint has said from your mind since you do not agree with them about the Eucharist?
“Can the church be trusted?” I am in no way offended by what the church teaches. I trust the church was given authority to teach the gospel. What people take from that teaching is a different things.

Also, yes, welcome to this forum. I see that you are a “Catholic in the making.” Consider carefully! I wish I had been given a choice! Obviously that would have been impossible, since infants are incapable of making choices.

Lol thank you, and I appreciate your concern.

 

[tonyrey]

To me this reads like this: “God allowed many people to enter heaven without baptism, but baptism is necessary.” I don’t understand this. I think Vico is saying we should hope that God would not condemn infants because we wouldn’t condemn them. Isn’t that what it boils down to? But, it contradicts the testimony and belief of the greatest saints of the church. Is our “wisful thinking” deserving of more trust than their authority?

What happened to the statistics from a reputable source? Perhaps our thinking is not wishful after all - given that Jesus died for everyone without excluding those below a certain age…

 

[PumpkinCookie]

What happened to the statistics from a reputable source? Perhaps our thinking is not wishful after all - given that Jesus died for everyone without excluding those below a certain age…

Tonyrey, what would you accept as a “reputable source?”

I’m glad you don’t think infants and other non-believers are doomed to eternal hell. Neither do I! However, your ancestors and forebears in the Catholic faith clearly and obviously disagree. Are they all wrong? Does everyone on this thread know better? If so, how can you trust an organization that upholds these people as models of faith and sanctity? How can you trust an organization that has basically reversed its teachings in this area? Don’t you hear the hissing forked tongue in these subtle, hedging reversals and qualifications? Where is the clarion call of truth unsullied by politics and equivocation?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Lol thank you, and I appreciate your concern.

Ok so sounds good, forgiveness is the essential element of salvation. No need to worship Jesus, pray to saints, bow before bread, or believe contradictory and impossible things. I am working on forgiving the Catholic Church. It is difficult but I know they don’t intend to deceive. They have done much harm to humanity, but also much good that should not be minimized or ignored.

And you’re right, I have come to believe that the saints were simply in error, possibly as a result of mental illness and/or superstition. It seems most people agree with me! But then, why be Catholic?

 

[tonyrey]

What happened to the statistics from a reputable source? Perhaps our thinking is not wishful after all - given that Jesus died for everyone

Any recognised authority, secular or religious, that provides reliable statistics.

I’m glad you don’t think infants and other non-believers are doomed to eternal hell. Neither do I! However, your ancestors and forebears in the Catholic faith clearly and obviously disagree. Are they all wrong? Does everyone on this thread know better?

“all” begs the question…

If so, how can you trust an organization that upholds these people as models of faith and sanctity?

There is a difference between sanctity and infallibility.

How can you trust an organization that has basically reversed its teachings in this area?

You haven’t cited any infallible document to that effect.

Don’t you hear the hissing forked tongue in these subtle, hedging reversals and qualifications? Where is the clarion call of truth unsullied by politics and equivocation?

In the fundamental teaching of the Church that Jesus died for everyone without exception.

How about a list of saints who have rejected that teaching? That will settle the matter for once and for all…

Don’t you think there is a flagrant contradiction between that doctrine and the notion that infants are damned or at the very least excluded from heaven?

 

[tonyrey]

Ok so sounds good, forgiveness is the essential element of salvation. No need to worship Jesus, pray to saints, bow before bread, or believe contradictory and impossible things. I am working on forgiving the Catholic Church. It is difficult but I know they don’t intend to deceive. They have done much harm to humanity, but also much good that should not be minimized or ignored.

And you’re right, I have come to believe that the saints were simply in error, possibly as a result of mental illness and/or superstition. It seems most people agree with me! But then, why be Catholic?

You have still not specified which saints…

 

[tonyrey]

Ok so sounds good, forgiveness is the essential element of salvation. No need to worship Jesus, pray to saints, bow before bread, or believe contradictory and impossible things. I am working on forgiving the Catholic Church. It is difficult but I know they don’t intend to deceive. They have done much harm to humanity, but also much good that should not be minimized or ignored.

And you’re right, I have come to believe that the saints were simply in error, possibly as a result of mental illness and/or superstition. It seems most people agree with me! But then, why be Catholic?

It is a mistake to identify the Church with some or even many of its members - including Popes. They were not infallible in every respect.

 

[tonyrey]

I am working on forgiving the Catholic Church. It is difficult but I know they don’t intend to deceive. They have done much harm to humanity, but also much good that should not be minimized or ignored.

The truth is a two-edged sword. It can easily be distorted but silence leads nowhere and deprives people of the will to live - as we see in our secular society where depression and suicide are steadily increasing. Belief in Hell is hardly a motive for ending one’s life:

To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?

• Hamlet

 

[MatthewTheLess]

Ok so sounds good, forgiveness is the essential element of salvation. No need to worship Jesus, pray to saints, bow before bread, or believe contradictory and impossible things. I am working on forgiving the Catholic Church. It is difficult but I know they don’t intend to deceive. They have done much harm to humanity, but also much good that should not be minimized or ignored.

And you’re right, I have come to believe that the saints were simply in error, possibly as a result of mental illness and/or superstition. It seems most people agree with me! But then, why be Catholic?

you are looking to justify yourself and holding out your disbelieving heart for all to see. You have made it quite clear you are W/O faith. Where there is no faith your hope will dwindle. And when your hope has dwindled down to nothing you will ask yourself “what is the point of love?” Abandon love and tell me what do you have that anyone would want?

As far as saints being in error, have you considered perhaps it is your own reasoning that is in the dark? To think Saint Peter was in error or some type of mental illness because he believed in God is laughable. Am I to take your opinion over the truth?

When you see the saints living in the kingdom cohabiting with the Angels in profound peace your opinion will be changed. Until then I urge you to try and enter that small humble door, so that you may be found among them, and not raging at them as you do now. God did not put the disdain of the saints in your heart, if not from God then who?

They shall say among themselves, rueful
and groaning through anguish of spirit:
“This is the one whom once we held as a laughingstock
and as a type for mockery,
fools that we were!
His life we accounted madness,
and death dishonored.
See how he is accounted among the heavenly beings;*
how his lot is with the holy ones!
We, then, have strayed from the way of truth,
and the light of righteousness did not shine for us,
and the sun did not rise for us.
We were entangled in the thorns of mischief and of ruin;
we journeyed through trackless deserts,
but the way of the LORD we never knew.
What did our pride avail us?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Any recognised authority, secular or religious, that provides reliable statistics.

I don’t care about this issue too much, but if you do, go ahead and do a yahoo or google search. I cannot produce a federal form 990 (required charity disclosure in the USA) because the missionaries of charity choose to hide their financial information instead of publishing it like pretty much all other reputable and honest charities. There are several books about the abuses and financial mismanagement of this group available. There are many eyewitness reports from ex-members of the order and investigative journalists.

“all” begs the question…

What? Find me a single church authority or saint pre 1960 who said something to the effect of: “I think most people, including unbaptized children and non-catholics, go to heaven.”

There is a difference between sanctity and infallibility.

I never suggested they all need to be infallible. I just want you to own your implicit beliefs. Man up and say it directly: “St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are flat out wrong about the salvation of the majority of people.” My guess is, you won’t own this, even though you must hold it in order to believe what you seem to. You won’t own it, because if the heavyweight list of important saints are all utterly wrong about the salvation of infants and non-catholics…what else could they be wrong about?

You haven’t cited any infallible document to that effect.
In the fundamental teaching of the Church that Jesus died for everyone without exception.

How about a list of saints who have rejected that teaching? That will settle the matter for once and for all…

Don’t you think there is a flagrant contradiction between that doctrine and the notion that infants are damned or at the very least excluded from heaven?

1. Scripture is infallible right?

Enter by the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Right there, in black and white. The greatest saints, popes, doctors, mystics, miracle-workers, and architects of the Catholic faith have always and unanimously understood that this means most men will spend eternity in unrelenting, endless torment and pain both physical and spiritual. Read Catholic Answers own tract about hell. It is very clear

1. Yes, point one above is in tension with your point that scripture also says Jesus died for everyone. But, if at least some people are in hell, that death really didn’t do a whole lot of good for them did it? It is easy to see why Calvin had the insights he did, he was just clarifying what is obvious.

Read this most illuminating and concise article on Augustine here: ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM

You will see clearly that a scholar and Catholic priest Fr. William Most shows that Augustine believed “God wills all to be saved” to be an exaggeration at best. Is Augustine wrong, in your view? Do you know better? Why?

Yes, there is a flagrant contradiction in believing that infants without baptism are doomed to eternal hell and…being a decent human being!!! Yet:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Letentur coeli,” Sess. 6, July 6, 1439, ex cathedra: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.”77

 

[PumpkinCookie]

You have still not specified which saints…

Read the OP. Click the link. Listen to the “grim chorus of doom.”

 

[PumpkinCookie]

The truth is a two-edged sword. It can easily be distorted but silence leads nowhere and deprives people of the will to live - as we see in our secular society where depression and suicide are steadily increasing. Belief in Hell is hardly a motive for ending one’s life:

• Hamlet

Hamlet’s famous speech here is about fear of the unknown. He thinks we continue to live because we’re too afraid of the alternative, since we don’t know. “Conscience makes cowards of us all.” Is this your “reason for living?” You’re too afraid to die? Hamlet is a pathetic individual, not to be emulated, in my opinion.

However, if hell is real, and most people go there: it would have been better if we had never been born. We should be in constant despair over the knowledge that our brothers and sisters, and most of our precious children are tormented endlessly and cutoff from God forever. I have made this argument extensively before, and don’t feel the need to repeat it.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

you are looking to justify yourself and holding out your disbelieving heart for all to see. You have made it quite clear you are W/O faith. Where there is no faith your hope will dwindle. And when your hope has dwindled down to nothing you will ask yourself “what is the point of love?” Abandon love and tell me what do you have that anyone would want?

What? I am beginning to think you are very young, is that true? If so, that is not a bad thing but it would explain some of what you say. I believe in God and pray to him and him alone every day. But, that is beside the point of this thread. I have a lot of hope for everyone, but when I was a Catholic I lived under a cloud of doom and gloom that I wouldn’t wish upon my worst enemy. The more I learned, the more depressed and disgusted I became. My hope was dwindling with every saint read, with every council proclamation studied, with every work of theology analyzed. Fortunately God rescued me from the pit! That is why I’m here. God showed me a way out and rescued me, and I wish the same for others, but I am not here to proselytize so please believe whatever you want. I’m sure God will be generous to those who earnestly desire to obey him, no matter how young, old, or whatever nation and culture they come from.

As far as saints being in error, have you considered perhaps it is your own reasoning that is in the dark? To think Saint Peter was in error or some type of mental illness because he believed in God is laughable. Am I to take your opinion over the truth?

Yes of course! I constantly examine my own beliefs and reasoning. I discuss with others and read opposing opinions all the time. I am not interested in living in an intellectual echo chamber, and honestly desire to know the truth. I never said anything about Saint Peter being mentally ill because he believed in God. I think the saints quoted in the OP are mentally ill or pathologically callous and unloving if they think most people go to hell. My opinion is just my opinion. Take it or leave it. I do not proclaim to be the arbiter of truth. It does seem that there are certain falsehoods that are rather obvious though, and I just want to point them out.

When you see the saints living in the kingdom cohabiting with the Angels in profound peace your opinion will be changed. Until then I urge you to try and enter that small humble door, so that you may be found among them, and not raging at them as you do now. God did not put the disdain of the saints in your heart, if not from God then who?

I have disdain for the opinion that most people go to hell. Many saints hold that opinion, and I have disdain for that opinion nonetheless. I think it is the fruit of an ill or cruel mind.

They shall say among themselves, rueful
and groaning through anguish of spirit:
“This is the one whom once we held as a laughingstock
and as a type for mockery,
fools that we were!
His life we accounted madness,
and death dishonored.
See how he is accounted among the heavenly beings;*
how his lot is with the holy ones!
We, then, have strayed from the way of truth,
and the light of righteousness did not shine for us,
and the sun did not rise for us.
We were entangled in the thorns of mischief and of ruin;
we journeyed through trackless deserts,
but the way of the LORD we never knew.
What did our pride avail us?

I do not recognize the authority of this book of the Catholic bible. It is not included in the Jewish scriptures. Even so, this has nothing to do with Jesus at all, but the true God who will make all things right, may he be praised! I won’t argue further because it would probably be considered proselytism, and I am not here to engage in this activity.

 

[tonyrey]

Read the OP. Click the link. Listen to the “grim chorus of doom.”

The simplest interpretation is that the saints followed the example of Jesus in warning everyone of the risk of giving way to temptation:

’

Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!’

The Jewish custom of using hyperbole for effect is well-known:

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:29-30

If there is a real danger of going to hell it is absurd to mince words. The blood-stained history of the human race is a stark reminder of the reality of evil and all the needless suffering it has caused. Why? Because so many people have believed they can do exactly what they like and get away with it.“Without God everything is permissible” is the answer to your sarcastic “grim chorus of doom”. Can you suggest a better alternative?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Again, think about those who commit a mortal sin every day.

Someone close to me works in law, the amount of people who are arrested for a myriad of things every day is staggering, and this would be coming from a smaller city. I can only imagine what a larger one would yield.

If these criminals were to die, how many do you think are saved? How many people are murdered in Chicago (Chiraq) every weekend?

Not all sin is mortal, and even grave sins are not mortal unless the person who commits them has full knowledge and intent.

 

[tonyrey]

The truth is a two-edged sword. It can easily be distorted but silence leads nowhere and deprives people of the will to live - as we see in our secular society where depression and suicide are steadily increasing.

No response…

Belief in Hell is hardly a motive for ending one’s life.

Hamlet’s famous speech here is about fear of the unknown. He thinks we continue to live because we’re too afraid of the alternative, since we don’t know. “Conscience makes cowards of us all.” Is this your “reason for living?” You’re too afraid to die? Hamlet is a pathetic individual, not to be emulated, in my opinion.

On the contrary, he pointed out “there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy”. He wanted to avenge the murder of his father but he knew one crime doesn’t justify another. Hence his indecision. He had a conscience - which is more than can be said of characters like Othello and Iago. Perhaps that is why you think he is pathetic… He is certainly more realistic in you is his recognition of the harsh reality of evil and its devastating effects.

However, if hell is real, and most people go there: it would have been better if we had never been born. We should be in constant despair over the knowledge that our brothers and sisters, and most of our precious children are tormented endlessly and cutoff from God forever. I have made this argument extensively before, and don’t feel the need to repeat it.

Only God knows how many people go to hell and those who do know full well what they are doing. If our relatives are so evil and selfish they ignore and reject us our respect and love for them will disappear in a flash. It pays to be realistic rather than living in the past and making ourselves miserable because of their detestable decision to exist for themselves without having to be encumbered by obstacles to their independence. We see plenty of evidence of that mentality in this world, let alone the next. My first experience of work in a hospital was caring for an old man whose children couldn’t be bothered to come and see him on his death-bed…

 

[tonyrey]

Not all sin is mortal, and even grave sins are not mortal unless the person who commits them has full knowledge and intent.

And who knows how many repent when they die?

“Do not judge lest you be judged…”

 

[Aloysium]

The simplest interpretation is that the saints followed the example of Jesus in warning everyone of the risk of giving way to temptation . . .

Being closer to God than the rest of us, they were more aware of what can be lost.
They also had greater understanding of their own sinfulness and of what constitutes the will of God.
We are transformed into who we are, ultimately in eternity, by how we choose to behave.
This is how our all-merciful, all-loving and all-knowing God judges and metes out justice, by allowing us to become and remain the person we want to be.
There is no point arguing about hell; what will be will be, and it all boils down to following two commandments.
It is not loving to tell people they can do whatever they want. As hard as it may be, people need to hear the truth.
And that truth, to which you allude, is that the consequences can be dire.
That said, there are scrupulous people for whom such thoughts cause great anxiety. For them and all of us really, the focus should be on loving one another and trusting God.

 

[tonyrey]

No response…

On the contrary, he pointed out “there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy”. He wanted to avenge the murder of his father but he knew one crime doesn’t justify another. Hence his indecision. He had a conscience - which is more than can be said of characters like Othello and Iago. Perhaps that is why you think he is pathetic… He is certainly more realistic in you is his recognition of the harsh reality of evil and its devastating effects.

Only God knows how many people go to hell and those who do know full well what they are doing. If our relatives are so evil and selfish they ignore and reject us our respect and love for them will disappear in a flash. It pays to be realistic rather than living in the past and making ourselves miserable because of their detestable decision to exist for themselves without having to be encumbered by obstacles to their independence. We see plenty of evidence of that mentality in this world, let alone the next. My first experience of work in a hospital was caring for an old man whose children couldn’t be bothered to come and see him on his death-bed…

One outstanding Catholic doctrine missing in this discussion is Purgatory which the Church in her wisdom realises is a more realistic response to how most people live. We are saved by Christ on the Cross but only if we are prepared to suffer for Him in this life or the next. Love is not a one-way road and death is not the end of our development…