Will few men be saved?

[PumpkinCookie]

No response…

On the contrary, he pointed out “there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy”. He wanted to avenge the murder of his father but he knew one crime doesn’t justify another. Hence his indecision. He had a conscience - which is more than can be said of characters like Othello and Iago. Perhaps that is why you think he is pathetic… He is certainly more realistic in you is his recognition of the harsh reality of evil and its devastating effects.

Only God knows how many people go to hell and those who do know full well what they are doing. If our relatives are so evil and selfish they ignore and reject us our respect and love for them will disappear in a flash. It pays to be realistic rather than living in the past and making ourselves miserable because of their detestable decision to exist for themselves without having to be encumbered by obstacles to their independence. We see plenty of evidence of that mentality in this world, let alone the next. My first experience of work in a hospital was caring for an old man whose children couldn’t be bothered to come and see him on his death-bed…

To respond to your first point: depression and suicide are on the rise in the post-Christian west because our religion has been drained of vitality and meaning. It fails to fulifill our deepest longings for God. Islam offers vigor and atheism offers rationality and pleasure and so we see huge growth in those ways of life. We are like the Romans of late antiquity. Our foundational myths no longer inspire (most of) us to nobility or charity. Nietzsche was exactly correct in his diagnosis of western spiritual decay. Except, instead of asserting our own egos to the fullest extent possible, we should return to the true worship of God. Only God can offer us what we seek.

Hamlet is not pathetic (at this point of the play) because he has a conscience, but because he is a coward and impotent. He grows beyond his superstition and fear by the end of the play because he has embraced “fate.” If we embrace God’s will, our transformation will be similar. And we will resolutely obey God no matter the cost, like Abraham.

I don’t know what you mean by alleging that I am not “realistic.” I acknowledge the world is full of evil. God is punishing us in this life, and if we ultimately refuse to “learn our lessons” he will utterly obliterate us, as is his right. No need to torture us forever or sustain the existence of an evil “trickster god.”

 

[tonyrey]

Being closer to God than the rest of us, they were more aware of what can be lost.
They also had greater understanding of their own sinfulness and of what constitutes the will of God.
We are transformed into who we are, ultimately in eternity, by how we choose to behave.
This is how our all-merciful, all-loving and all-knowing God judges and metes out justice, by allowing us to become and remain the person we want to be.
There is no point arguing about hell; what will be will be, and it all boils down to following two commandments.
It is not loving to tell people they can do whatever they want. As hard as it may be, people need to hear the truth.
And that truth, to which you allude, is that the consequences can be dire.
That said, there are scrupulous people for whom such thoughts cause great anxiety. For them and all of us really, the focus should be on loving one another and trusting God.

:clapping: The primary purpose of Our Lord’s mission is to give us hope and confidence not fear and despair. For non-Christians the Cross is a symbol of cruelty and death but for us it is a sign of love and life.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Being closer to God than the rest of us, they were more aware of what can be lost.
They also had greater understanding of their own sinfulness and of what constitutes the will of God.
We are transformed into who we are, ultimately in eternity, by how we choose to behave.
This is how our all-merciful, all-loving and all-knowing God judges and metes out justice, by allowing us to become and remain the person we want to be.
There is no point arguing about hell; what will be will be, and it all boils down to following two commandments.
It is not loving to tell people they can do whatever they want. As hard as it may be, people need to hear the truth.
And that truth, to which you allude, is that the consequences can be dire.
That said, there are scrupulous people for whom such thoughts cause great anxiety. For them and all of us really, the focus should be on loving one another and trusting God.

Infants are given no such chance to become and remain the person they want to be, and yet are punished endlessly simply because they exist as human beings and happen to die prior to baptism. Read the ex cathdra statement of the pope about a matter of faith I posted above. There is a point to arguing about hell: if it can be shown not to exist or to cause God to be evil (heaven forbid!) we should doubt the truthfulness of the ones making claims about it.

Again, no one will answer my very illuminating hypothetical: what if everyone ends up in hell? Is that OK? Is God still “good?” How would we even know, in that case? Now, how many less than “all” people being tormented forever will make it OK?

 

[Vico]

…God is punishing us in this life, and if we ultimately refuse to “learn our lessons” he will utterly obliterate us, as is his right. No need to torture us forever or sustain the existence of an evil “trickster god.”

The Judaeo-Christian teaching is that the body-soul combination ceases at death, but upon resurrection the eternal soul is reunited with the body. The Christian teaching is that one cannot repent after death. Luke 16:19-31. Combined with eternal soul, means eternally without the Beatific Vision. St. Cyprian wrote (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1028): 1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends. 604 (St. Cyprian, Ep. 58,10,1:CSEL 3/2,665.)

​

 

[Aloysium]

Infants are given no such chance to become and remain the person they want to be, and yet are punished endlessly simply because they exist as human beings and happen to die prior to baptism. Read the ex cathdra statement of the pope about a matter of faith I posted above. . .’

At the centre of the town where my mom was born, a century ago, there was the church. It was not only the geographical centre, but that of most social activities in the area. Everyone was Catholic. The name used to designate a person was “Christian”, as in “three Christians died in the fire”. People would meet at the church in the evening to say prayers, that much I know. They may have had the daily mass then because it was a farming community. They all celebrated religious festivals and the day of specific Saints. You tell me what it would be the outcome of someone not baptizing their child in that sort of environment which is very common, albeit in different cultures, even today.

To me, it sounds like you have not been able to reconcile how love and justice are one and the same; and, you bring up the issue of baptism to discredit the church. I believe that you are engaging in a fundamentalist sort of thinking that misses the nuances of existence. Hell clearly exists as revealed in scripture.

You are free to believe what you want, but the rather cartoonish vision that you are trying to argue against is probably better than actual hell itself. We have to be ourselves for eternity; imagine what would that be like without God, having cut ourselves off from love. As far as I understand, hell is nothing that we have, or will not experience and we can give up to our Lord Jesus Christ, who took on all our sins and died for them, that we might live.

 

[tonyrey]

No response…

On the contrary it’s the rampant materialism in the West that has drained people’s lives of vitality and meaning. In the UK there are many Catholics from all over the world who go to church every week.

Islam offers vigor and atheism offers rationality and pleasure and so we see huge growth in those ways of life. We are like the Romans of late antiquity. Our foundational myths no longer inspire (most of) us to nobility or charity. Nietzsche was exactly correct in his diagnosis of western spiritual decay. Except, instead of asserting our own egos to the fullest extent possible, we should return to the true worship of God. Only God can offer us what we seek.

Nietzsche was one of the causes of spiritual decay with his doctrine of the Superman and the Will to Power which led to the Nazis and the Holocaust. Do you think martyrs like Archbishop Romero don’t inspire us to follow their example and defend the rights of the poor? They have done far more than armchair philosophers who live in a world of fantasy…

Hamlet is not pathetic (at this point of the play) because he has a conscience, but because he is a coward and impotent. He grows beyond his superstition and fear by the end of the play because he has embraced “fate.” If we embrace God’s will, our transformation will be similar. And we will resolutely obey God no matter the cost, like Abraham.

A man who believes there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in heaven and earth is hardly likely to embrace “fate”.He tries to do what is right even though his efforts are in vain. He is a victim of misfortune but his outstanding characteristic is his moral integrity.

I don’t know what you mean by alleging that I am not “realistic.” I acknowledge the world is full of evil. God is punishing us in this life, and if we ultimately refuse to “learn our lessons” he will utterly obliterate us, as is his right. No need to torture us forever or sustain the existence of an evil “trickster god.”

God punishes no one because it is not necessary. Our virtues bring their own rewards and our vices incur their own punishment. Evil is self-destructive because we trick ourselves if we regard ourselves as more valuable and important than anyone else. God is not a Destroyer but our Creator who creates us in His own image and loves even if we reject His love because we are His children. He transcends human imperfection and respects our freedom because He knows we would otherwise be incapable of love. That is why Jesus died for us on the Cross: to liberate us from our ignorance, weakness and selfishness, not to obliterate us like a monster but to share His life with us in Heaven forever.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

On the contrary it’s the rampant materialism in the West that has drained people’s lives of vitality and meaning. In the UK there are many Catholics from all over the world who go to church every week.

Why have people turned to materialism and vanity in pursuit of happiness? Christianity has been tried and found wanting, over a period of many centuries! People are failing to find meaning and fulfillment in modern life because we have abandoned God. It started with intellectuals and leaders during the late Renaissance but has spread to the common people since the early 20th century. We abandoned Christian faith only to replace it with emptiness, no wonder we’re unhappy as a civilization even though our material circumstances would make prior generations weep with joy! We must return to the true worship of God. When the Messiah comes, knowledge of God will cover the earth and peace will reign forever. May this happen soon!

Nietzsche was one of the causes of spiritual decay with his doctrine of the Superman and the Will to Power which led to the Nazis and the Holocaust. Do you think martyrs like Archbishop Romero don’t inspire us to follow their example and defend the rights of the poor? They have done far more than armchair philosophers who live in a world of fantasy…

Nietzsche was no cause, merely a prophet of the ills of his society which have further deteriorated into our time. I believe Nietzsche’s diagnosis was exactly correct, but his solution was terribly wrong! Those with no spiritual moorings will always be attracted to strong ideologies, whether fascist, libertine, communist, etc.

A man who believes there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in heaven and earth is hardly likely to embrace “fate”.He tries to do what is right even though his efforts are in vain. He is a victim of misfortune but his outstanding characteristic is his moral integrity.

Consider this quote:

Sir, in my heart there was a kind of fighting
That would not let me sleep. Methought I lay
Worse than the mutines in the bilboes. Rashly—
And praised be rashness for it: let us know
Our indiscretion sometimes serves us well
When our deep plots do pall, and that should teach us
There’s a divinity that shapes our ends,
Rough-hew them how we will—

Here Hamlet acknowledges that his inner turmoil is pointless since fate has always directed him to avenge his father’s death. He embraces fate or “God’s will” here. This is in contrast to Hamlet’s earlier attempt to flee from fate by exiling himself. This is a common theme in Shakespeare, Macbeth being his other most famous example of the tension between free will and fate. In fact, we love to discuss this same problem on this very forum. It is one of the most compelling and fascinating questions of human life.

God punishes no one because it is not necessary. Our virtues bring their own rewards and our vices incur their own punishment. Evil is self-destructive because we trick ourselves if we regard ourselves as more valuable and important than anyone else. God is not a Destroyer but our Creator who creates us in His own image and loves even if we reject His love because we are His children. He transcends human imperfection and respects our freedom because He knows we would otherwise be incapable of love. That is why Jesus died for us on the Cross: to liberate us from our ignorance, weakness and selfishness, not to obliterate us like a monster but to share His life with us in Heaven forever.

What you call the “old testament” is brimming with instances of God directly punishing people for violating his law. You must know this! The 1993 Catechism explicitly states that hell is a punishment. If you believe in it, you believe God punishes. Yes, oftentimes, the natural consequences of our sins seem punishment enough, but God must avenge the innocent whom we have harmed as well. Is jail time truly enough for the suffering caused by a person like Bernie Madoff? Is a despairing death by his own hand truly enough punishment for Hitler? I say, probably not. HOWEVER, that does not mean God will punish them endlessly in a relentless, torment-filled hell! That is clearly disproportionate and unjust. If you say it is just, because everything God does is just by definition, then you have destroyed the meaning of the word “just.” It no longer refers to anything recognizable at that point.

 

[punisherthunder]

Reasons few will be saved:

• Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (No salvation outside of the Church)
• Catholics in mortal sin
• If the planet has 7 billion people and if in the next hour 60,000 die. You can apply the above two reasons and I now see how the saints could arrived at such a number.

 

[Aloysium]

Why have people turned to materialism and vanity in pursuit of happiness? Christianity has been tried and found wanting, over a period of many centuries! . . . It no longer refers to anything recognizable at that point.

People have always turned to materialism and vanity because it is in our nature to do so. Christianity offers the only possibility for any and every person to find eternal joy.
What is unrecognizable is your cosmology.
I have faith in Jesus and His church.
If I might suggest that you focus less on hell, as it is leading you astray.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Reasons few will be saved:

• Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (No salvation outside of the Church)
• Catholics in mortal sin
• If the planet has 7 billion people and if in the next hour 60,000 die. You can apply the above two reasons and I now see how the saints could arrived at such a number.

Right, if St. Leonard is correct, and only 3/60,000 people go to heaven, this means only 0.00005% of people go to heaven. 7 billion x 0.00005% = 350,000 total saved people if everyone died today. More people attended the Tour De France this year. What is more likely: God created a universe where a laughably small amount of people go to heaven, turning his “desire to save all men” into a sick joke, or the testimony of saints like this is the product of mental illness (if sincerely believed) or cynical manipulation (if not actually believed)?

 

[tonyrey]

Reasons few will be saved:

• Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (No salvation outside of the Church)
• Catholics in mortal sin
• If the planet has 7 billion people and if in the next hour 60,000 die. You can apply the above two reasons and I now see how the saints could arrived at such a number.

How do you reconcile your conclusion with the belief that God is an infinitely loving Father whose Son suffered and died for everyone to liberate us from evil? It seems as if His sacrifice wasn’t very effective. According to your calculations diabolical evil must be far more dominant and powerful than divine love…

 

[punisherthunder]

How do you reconcile your conclusion with the belief that God is an infinitely loving Father whose Son suffered and died for everyone to liberate us from evil? It seems as if His sacrifice wasn’t very effective. According to your calculations diabolical evil must be far more dominant and powerful than divine love…

My argument is an attempt to try an answer the question of how can only just a few men be saved?

I’m trying to validate the numbers of this. However, I’m also up for studying the ideology of “Massa Damnata” during this particular moment in history too.

 

[tonyrey]

How do you reconcile your conclusion with the belief that God is an infinitely loving Father whose Son suffered and died for everyone

It sounds like an academic exercise which bears no relation to reality.

The vast majority of people are not evil nor is God an implacable Judge…