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paramedicgirl
Guest
I think what most posters mean is that everything else pales in comparison once we get a taste of heaven. We won’t be able to measure or quantify that feeling until we are there.
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seeker63
Guest
Well, I’d certainly agree with that.
We can only try to grasp the concept and approximate the feeling by using human standards of measurement and pleasure, and they will certainly fall very short of what the reality of heaven will be.
It’s like trying to comprehend the infinity of space–we can’t grasp it. We can imagine ot only going so far and then we just give up on it.
The greatest love, the tastiest chocolate cake, the most peaceful state of mind, the most stunning beauty–none of that is adequate.
Mmmm—but chocolate does come close…
We can only try to grasp the concept and approximate the feeling by using human standards of measurement and pleasure, and they will certainly fall very short of what the reality of heaven will be.
It’s like trying to comprehend the infinity of space–we can’t grasp it. We can imagine ot only going so far and then we just give up on it.
The greatest love, the tastiest chocolate cake, the most peaceful state of mind, the most stunning beauty–none of that is adequate.
Mmmm—but chocolate does come close…
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koryp
Guest
Gosh, I apologize… Please let me explain. I don’t think there is something wrong with someone just because they’d miss a loved one if that loved one didn’t get to Heaven (whether that loved one was a pet or a spouse). I think you’re love for your pets is genuine, beautiful, and reminiscent Saint Francis of Assisi (IOW, perhaps you are an earthly saint). I think the main point I was trying to make is that we are so far from being capable of understanding Heaven that when we get there, who knows, maybe we won’t miss our loved ones.
Now I do know that I have been sad when loved ones have passed away. I think grieving is a natural process. But on the brighter side, if that loved one lived a life worthy of Heaven, perhaps I’d celebrate that day in years to come as the day they made it. A feast day. And, if/when I get to Heaven too, I wonder what we’d think of the time we spent grieving. Will we think it was silly, but understandable due to our limited knowledge of God’s ways? I think our perspective on the love we had for others while on Earth will change. If, on the other hand, we continue to see our Earthly relationships the same way, we could raise all sorts of issues. Take for example someone who loses a spouse and re-marries. When they all meet up in Heaven are they going to duke it out to see who’s living where?
With marriage they say, “'till death do you part…” Perhaps post death, there isn’t a need for the connection as it was on Earth. Or worse, what if a couple gets separated and one ends up down below. Will Heaven not be such for the one who made it? It sounds sad now, but perhaps there’s a higher level of understanding that we will achieve.I can certainly say that I hope my spouse, kids, relatives, and friends, and I make it to Heaven. While here on Earth I would even go so far as to point out our differing ideas with the hopes of creating conversation to help us better understand our faith so that we can all make it to Heaven. I pray that they don’t see my questioning of their opinions as accusing them of having something wrong with them. We’re all in this together and, out of love for each other, we must continue to compassionately question our opinions to fine tune our love for Him. But after final judgment, we’ll all have an understanding of what each person was given and what they did or didn’t do with that. (On a side note, with that in mind, suffering can be viewed as an opportunity.) And, although I don’t understand how this can be, I’m convinced that I would whole-heartedly agree with God’s judgment even if that meant my spouse and I were to be separated. Again, my point being, we, as currently imperfect creatures, can’t comprehend how we will think when we are completely purged of our sins and returned to our newly-risen, perfect bodies in God’s perfect Kingdom.
We are to love God with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our souls. While here on Earth we can accomplish this by proclaiming His glory through our love for His creations. When in Heaven, I suppose we’ll continue to love each other as a way of loving Him. Right!?
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seeker63
Guest
There’s nothing you have to say there, Koryp, that I don’t agree with either. Anyway, please don’t apologize–it was Pentecost2005 that I was having difficulties with. I’m sorry you thought otherwise.
You know, one thing I really hope they have in heaven is the ability to see all the possible directions our lives could’ve taken. (Though that could be depressing too.) I’d like to see what would’ve happened had I gone to a different school, took a left turn and not the right, etc. I’ve always been fascinated by that sort of speculation.
You know, one thing I really hope they have in heaven is the ability to see all the possible directions our lives could’ve taken. (Though that could be depressing too.) I’d like to see what would’ve happened had I gone to a different school, took a left turn and not the right, etc. I’ve always been fascinated by that sort of speculation.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
What Jesus says about this: *For in the ressurection they shall neither marry nor be maried; but shall be as angels of God in heaven" * (Matthew 22:30)I think our perspective on the love we had for others while on Earth will change. If, on the other hand, we continue to see our Earthly relationships the same way, we could raise all sorts of issues. Take for example someone who loses a spouse and re-marries. When they all meet up in Heaven are they going to duke it out to see who’s living where?
The above passage refers to the reply of Jesus when the Saducees tried to trick Jesus by asking him whose wife the woman would be in heaven, after she married all of her first husband’s brothers.
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
Well, I did once wonder … how can Heaven be that grand if there are loved ones in Hell? Whew, that’s a dark and dreary thing to ponder! But I needn’t worry.
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Princess_Abby
Guest
I don’t take issue with your attachment to your pets, because my attachment to my husband is equally strong. I don’t ever want to be anywhere without him, eternity or otherwise. He has been the biggest joy of my life, and while I know God will supercede all joy that I could ever even fathom, I want to share that with the man whom I love with all my heart.
I have a friend who is always saying we won’t really even take notice of our spouse or children in heaven, because we will be so mesmerized by God, our Heavenly Father. But I have a hard time believing that the spouse whom God gave me with the sole intention of helping to sanctify me will suddenly be forgettable in heaven. I just don’t believe it. The love I have here is but a taste of what waits for me in heaven, but to that end, I also beleive that I will love my husband in a far greater way than I could ever imagine here on earth.
My husband and I always pray for our mutual salvation, for a long life together here on earth, as well as an eternity of splendor and joy with our Lord, together, in heaven.
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seeker63
Guest
Well, I’m 41 and have never come close to even dating steady, much less marrying, so I figure I’d best not hold my breath that I’ll ever know what that sort of love is like. But who knows? It could happen…
I tell my friends that one of my greatest regrets is that I’m unable to show others what my dreams are like. They are so beautiful and fascinating and very cinematic, and although I’m a good writer and a so-so artist, I can’t come close to conveying what I see when I dream. I suspect heaven may be in some ways akin to my dreams.
Like a lot of people, some of my attachment to my pets is due to the fact I’ve been let down and/or betrayed too many times by humans, especially the ones I’ve loved.
I tell my friends that one of my greatest regrets is that I’m unable to show others what my dreams are like. They are so beautiful and fascinating and very cinematic, and although I’m a good writer and a so-so artist, I can’t come close to conveying what I see when I dream. I suspect heaven may be in some ways akin to my dreams.
Like a lot of people, some of my attachment to my pets is due to the fact I’ve been let down and/or betrayed too many times by humans, especially the ones I’ve loved.
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Mike_O
Guest
Where in the Catechism is this teaching about “levels” of Heaven?
This sounds quite preposterous to be frank. This is not some video game where we must advance to the next stage.
This sounds quite preposterous to be frank. This is not some video game where we must advance to the next stage.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Mike O:
VII. ATTRIBUTES OF BEATITUDE
There are various degrees of beatitude in heaven corresponding to the various degrees of merit. This is a dogma of faith, defined by the Council of Florence (Denz., n. 693 – old, n. 588). The Bible teaches this truth in very many passages (e.g., wherever it speaks of eternal happiness as a reward), and the Fathers defend it against the heretical attacks of Jovinian. It is true that, according to Matt., xx, 1-16, each labourer receives a penny; but by this comparison Christ merely teaches that, although the Gospel was preached to the Jews first, yet in the Kingdom of Heaven there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and that no one will receive a greater reward merely because of being a son of Judah. The various degrees of beatitude are not limited to the accidental blessings, but they are found first and foremost in the beatific vision itself. For, as we have already pointed out, the vision, too, admits of degrees. These essential degrees of beatitude are, as Suárez rightly observes (“De beat.”, d. xi, s. 3, n. 5), that threefold fruit Christ distinguishes when He says that the word of God bears fruit in some thirty, in some sixty, in some a hundredfold (Matt., xiii, 23). And it is by a mere accommodation of the text that St. Thomas (Supp:96, aa. 2 sqq.) and other theologians apply this text to the different degrees in the accidental beatitude merited by married persons, widows, and virgins.
Here is the website for the encyclopedia
newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm
Here is some text from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia that may answer your question
VII. ATTRIBUTES OF BEATITUDE
There are various degrees of beatitude in heaven corresponding to the various degrees of merit. This is a dogma of faith, defined by the Council of Florence (Denz., n. 693 – old, n. 588). The Bible teaches this truth in very many passages (e.g., wherever it speaks of eternal happiness as a reward), and the Fathers defend it against the heretical attacks of Jovinian. It is true that, according to Matt., xx, 1-16, each labourer receives a penny; but by this comparison Christ merely teaches that, although the Gospel was preached to the Jews first, yet in the Kingdom of Heaven there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and that no one will receive a greater reward merely because of being a son of Judah. The various degrees of beatitude are not limited to the accidental blessings, but they are found first and foremost in the beatific vision itself. For, as we have already pointed out, the vision, too, admits of degrees. These essential degrees of beatitude are, as Suárez rightly observes (“De beat.”, d. xi, s. 3, n. 5), that threefold fruit Christ distinguishes when He says that the word of God bears fruit in some thirty, in some sixty, in some a hundredfold (Matt., xiii, 23). And it is by a mere accommodation of the text that St. Thomas (Supp:96, aa. 2 sqq.) and other theologians apply this text to the different degrees in the accidental beatitude merited by married persons, widows, and virgins.
Here is the website for the encyclopedia
newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
So it is based on a controversial interpretation of the Bible?
paramedicgirl:
We can love God without knowing Him fully, as we do know. Here on earth we can never fully know Him. But if it will be impossible to know Him forever . . . well, that doesn’t seem like much of a Heaven if we still don’t know Him fully. That’s what “face to face” is . . . knowing fully . . . not “face to part of face”
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Mike_O
Guest
That NewAdvent article seems to skirt around the issue.
The most compelling point made is that the Lord said that some will bear the fruit of His Word 100-fold, others 60-fold, etc. In what way does this mean that there are different degrees of Heaven?
I am asking if there is a specific discussion of this in the Catechism.
Indeed, if this is true, then one cannot maintain that everyone sees God in His fullness, because a saint would necessarily perceive God in a greater fullness than a lesser person admitted to Heaven. This smacks of reward system that seemed to have been done away with in the epistles of St. Paul, and in all years of studying the faith I have never heard this.
The most compelling point made is that the Lord said that some will bear the fruit of His Word 100-fold, others 60-fold, etc. In what way does this mean that there are different degrees of Heaven?
I am asking if there is a specific discussion of this in the Catechism.
Indeed, if this is true, then one cannot maintain that everyone sees God in His fullness, because a saint would necessarily perceive God in a greater fullness than a lesser person admitted to Heaven. This smacks of reward system that seemed to have been done away with in the epistles of St. Paul, and in all years of studying the faith I have never heard this.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Mike O:
Here is what the CCC says about those degrees:
1053 “We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also,* to various degrees*, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern” (Paul VI, CPG § 29).
Did you by any chance read post #2? The article readily explains the degrees of glory there are in heaven, with scriptural references.
Here is what the CCC says about those degrees:
1053 “We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also,* to various degrees*, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern” (Paul VI, CPG § 29).
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
paramedicgirl said:
This doesn’t seem to say anything about degrees of Heaven in the sense that some will be closer to God, though. This says “to various degrees, accociated with holy angels in the divine governance … etc”
Also, the scriptural references made in the site you linked to in post #2 can be interpreted differently. For example, "Let not your heart be troubled . . . . in My Father’s house there are many mansions” (Jn. 14:1,2). This does not have to imply anything about levels, it could simply mean Heaven is not going to overflow, there are quite enough places for everyone, and a place is being prepared for us all.
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Rebecca_New
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Rebecca_New
Guest
I don’t think this works, it makes you think that God is on a stage and the seating is around him.
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