Will hell spit out its dead?

[Fidei]

in a verse in the book of revelations, (forgot the verse) that all dead will be judged and hell will “throw out it’s dead”. Doesn’t the CC teach that there is no way for the wicked ones out of hell?

the only ones who have hopes out from the flames however are the ones in purgatory, but how about this specific verses that hell will “throw out it’s dead”?

 

[kepha1]

There is no such verse.

Rev. 14:11 - the worshipers of the beast suffer and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.
Rev. 20:10 - they’re tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

 

[thistle]

in a verse in the book of revelations, (forgot the verse) that all dead will be judged and hell will “throw out it’s dead”. Doesn’t the CC teach that there is no way for the wicked ones out of hell?

the only ones who have hopes out from the flames however are the ones in purgatory, but how about this specific verses that hell will “throw out it’s dead”?

There is no way out of Hell. Anyone who ends up there is there forever.

 

[SunnaB16]

In the context of Revelation 20:13, the word means the abode of the dead which the Jews called “Sheol”. The Apostles` Creed says that our Lord “descended into Hell” (ie Sheol, not the Hell of the damned).
In other words: at the end of time, there will be the General Resurrection.

The word for what we generally call “Hell” is “Gehenna”, named after the Valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, where children were sacrificed to the demon god Moloch.

 

[Cachonga]

“And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;” (Rev 20:13-14 emphasis mine). Of course, there is more that happens before and after this, but basically, this will happen before the Great White Throne judgement, and is the only time anyone gets out of hell (Hades). Notice, though, that they leave Hades to be judged, then cast into the lake of fire (along with Death and Hades).

 

[Fidei]

so hell referred here is is actually hades - the place of the dead? (not burning nor in torment)

Now this raises another question, don’t we believe our souls survive after death and are destined to either be in heaven, hell or purgatory? if death and hades will throw out its dead during the resurrection, where is hades in connection to these three places we end up? we already know hades is not hell because there is no way out of it nor is it heaven and purgatory. So we mean to say, there is heaven, hell, hades and purgatory?

 

[Cachonga]

Fidei, there seems to be some confusion here. Hades and hell are the same place (as described in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it is a place of fire and torment). It is true that once someone is in hell, they can never get into heaven. I am not aware of any Scripture that says a soul will never get out of hell. This is obviously not the case, since we see that the dead in hell will get out to stand in judgment before being cast into the lake of fire (along with death and hell, which is appropriate, since there will be no more death, and hell will be an empty, polluted place).

As far as purgatory, I personally do not believe such a place exists, but that is an entirely different topic.

Hope this helps!

 

[Fidei]

I get it, the ones who are dead in hell, will be judged and whoever are deemed worthy in living in the so called “new order” may live but the very wicked ones will be disposed of in this “lake of fire”

i just seem to have this issue of hell being thrown out in judgment and then being thrown down again after judgment, i understand when you’re in hell, you may not go into heaven. but can any catholic here show me the real catholic doctrine of hell? is it a permanent abode where one may not escape from? or is it a temporary fire until we are judged? because ive heard before that hell may not be emptied and that the dead in hell will remain there to suffer eternal fire forever (which means there may be no conceivable way out of it…not even judgment).

 

[MeekandHumble]

in a verse in the book of revelations, (forgot the verse) that all dead will be judged and hell will “throw out it’s dead”. Doesn’t the CC teach that there is no way for the wicked ones out of hell?

the only ones who have hopes out from the flames however are the ones in purgatory, but how about this specific verses that hell will “throw out it’s dead”?

Hell means grave (most of the time)

If those people have not been judged, then why are they being punished?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Again, how can hell (the world view of a fiery place) be thrown into the lake of fire?

 

[Cachonga]

MeekandHumble:

Again, how can hell (the world view of a fiery place) be thrown into the lake of fire?

Because Hell is a real place, just like Washington DC. God is able to cast the real Hell into the very real lake of fire, just as He is able to create a “New Heaven and a new Earth” after all is said and done. I recall years ago (when I was still a Catholic in high school), a priest explained it (as best as I can recall) something like this - “Hell is like the county jail. When you die, you either go to heaven, probation (purgatory) or the county jail. When the final judgment comes, the county jail will be emptied out, all the prisoners will be tried and convicted to the state penitentiary (the lake of fire). Since the county jail is now empty, it is no longer needed either, so it can be eliminated as well.” I would end by asking, What would constitute a grave? Some people were buried in caves, some on platforms off the ground, some were eaten by wild animals and their remains scattered all over the place; what would you classify as a grave, and how could it be cast into the lake of fire? (I’ll be nice and not ask if a reliquary with a body part of a dead “saint” would be considered a grave.)

 

[SunnaB16]

Fidei, there seems to be some confusion here. Hades and hell are the same place (as described in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it is a place of fire and torment).

This isnt correct! See my earlier post. What we generally call Hell was called Gehenna in earlier times. Youre getting the word mixed up.
The confusion lies with you (Cachonga). Whatever religion you`ve embraced since leaving the Church has given you false teachings.

It is true that once someone is in hell, they can never get into heaven. I am not aware of any Scripture that says a soul will never get out of hell. This is obviously not the case, since we see that the dead in hell will get out to stand in judgment before being cast into the lake of fire (along with death and hell, which is appropriate, since there will be no more death, and hell will be an empty, polluted place).

Again, theres confusion. Death and Hell (as in Hades: the abode of the dead) will cease to exist. But the abode of the damned, **what we normally call Hell these days, is forever.** And thats Scriptural. “…the everlasting fire…”, “…the worm which dieth not…” etc.

Comparing different Scripture translations shows whats going on... Douay Rheims Bible: "...and **death and hell** gave up their dead that were in them." New King James Version: "...and **death and Hades** delivered up the dead who were in them." Revised Standard Version: "...**Death and Hades** gave up the dead in them." Good News Bible; **"Death and the world of the dead** also gave up the dead they held." Compare the Douay Rheims (revised circa 1750) passage with the Good News (1960s?) passage. Its a pity that the meaning of the word “Hell” has changed with the passing of time.

Also, both the bad AND the good are held in the abode of the dead until the General Resurrection and the General Judgement

As far as purgatory, I personally do not believe such a place exists, but that is an entirely different topic.

Purgatory is a STATE where the souls of those who have died in the state of Grace, but are not totally cleansed of the guilt of their sins go to be purged of that. After the General Resurrection, Purgatory will cease to exist, and there will be just Heaven and Hell. Purgatory is Scriptural, although it`s not called that.

Fidei;
Please read my first post. The earlier and later meanings of the word “Hell” lead to confusion, all right; but just consider everything in a calm manner.
With the Apostles Creed: these days, more and more of us say: “He descended to the DEAD…”, ie to those waiting to be released into Heaven, avoiding the false impression of descending to the damned. No soul could attain the Heavenly state until our Lord`s mission was completed.

Stick with the teachings of the Catholic Church, rather than with the “teachings” of a former Catholic. (Sorry, Cachonga: but sometimes, we can`t afford to mince words.) Keep to the narrow path.

And dont let the Jehovahs Witnesses put one over you!

 

[SunnaB16]

Because Hell is a real place, just like Washington DC. God is able to cast the real Hell into the very real lake of fire, just as He is able to create a “New Heaven and a new Earth”.

Hell, as in the abode of the dead, is only a state. Its the abode of spirits, and spirits dont occupy space.
Hell, as in the abode of the damned, is also only a state; and won`t become a place until after the General Judgement.

I would end by asking, What would constitute a grave? Some people were buried in caves, some on platforms off the ground, some were eaten by wild animals and their remains scattered all over the place; what would you classify as a grave, and how could it be cast into the lake of fire? (I’ll be nice and not ask if a reliquary with a body part of a dead “saint” would be considered a grave.)

“The Grave” is metaphorical.
It symbolizes the fact that the immortal spiritual souls of the dead have not yet been united with resurrected glorified (or otherwise for those souls in Hell) bodies. After Doomsday, every human being who has ever lived will be a whole person again, with both body and soul. No more Grave. So, being cast into the lake of fire is metaphorical as well. Same thing with “Death”.

Remember that not one atom thats in a persons body now will be in it in seven years time (is that the right number of years?)
In other words, a resurrected body doesn`t need the component atoms that it had at death.

 

[Benadam]

I thought this verse was a reference to the final judgement when everyone, whether in hell or heaven or on earth recieve their bodies. For those who go to God glorified flesh and those in hell flesh eternally bound by the physical law it glorified during earthly life. The bodies of the souls in hell are recieved disfigured with the pattern of their life of sin, unseen during their earthly life made visible in the eternal life after the resurrection of the dead…

 

[Fidei]

sunna, lol, put it the other way around, im trying to put one on THEM.

so let me get this straight, there is a hell “as an abode/grave” which will cease to exist and another hell which is the real description of hell as a fiery torment and eternal? so this makes two kinds of hell?

this it what i understand so far… every wicked ones destined for hell TODAY are in this so called “grave” but in the day of judgment, this “grave” will cease to exist and will be thrown to this eternal flame along with death itself?

Again, theres confusion. Death and Hell (as in Hades: the abode of the dead) will cease to exist. But the abode of the damned, what we normally call Hell these days, is forever. And thats Scriptural. “…the everlasting fire…”, “…the worm which dieth not…” etc.

 

[SunnaB16]

sunna, lol, put it the other way around, im trying to put one on THEM.

GOOD SHOW!
Keep it up comrade!
Remember that even if we as individuals on CAF can`t answer something, the Church as an Entity certainly can.

i went a bit overboard when Cachonga threw in his contribution, and probably posted too much in an attempt to refute his posts.

so let me get this straight, there is a hell “as an abode/grave” which will cease to exist and another hell which is the real description of hell as a fiery torment and eternal? so this makes two kinds of hell?

You could say that the “abode/grave” "hell’ covers all of the souls of the deceased: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. Theyre like divisions in it. Yep: on Doomsday, each of these souls wil be (re)united with a body. No more dying. No more disembodied souls. No more "Grave". The REAL (!) Hell is forever. If only the words meaning hadn`t changed! (Growl!)

this it what i understand so far… every wicked ones destined for hell TODAY are in this so called “grave” but in the day of judgment, this “grave” will cease to exist and will be thrown to this eternal flame along with death itself?

Right.

Just a bit of background:
Theres a parallel between The Lake of Fire and the Valley of Hinnom, mentioned earlier, where children were sacrificed to Moloch (Satan really). Because of that horror, it was regarded as defiled, and an abode of demons. It became Jerusalems garbage dump where dead animals were thrown as well. There was fire and smoke going up…imagine the stink if you were downwind!!!. The valley became a symbol of the abode of the damned.
So, along with Death and The Grave, all of the damned will be thrown in like refuse, totally worthless; but unlike Death and The Grave, the damned arent destroyed. God doesnt consign anyone to Hell, though; we consign ourselves. Actually, a damned person doesnt want to be with God, and couldnt survive being in Heaven.

It`s hard to put thoughts in print…

 

[Cachonga]

This is what I’ve come to expect from “devout” Roman Catholics (see SunnaB16’s “comments” to what I posted). There is no good argument against what I said, so there is an ad hominen attack upon me (and a red herring thrown in for good measure). SunnaB16 ignored the comments I recalled hearing from my priest when I was still very Catholic in high school (which is very close to the comments I made), instead accusing me of receiving “false teaching” from whatever religion I embraced after leaving the RC Church. I did scan the CCC, and found no reference to Rev 20:13, but there were references to Hell (go here and search for Hell). If I’m wrong in my understanding, it’s because of what my priest taught when I was still Catholic. I would ask SunnaB16 how it is that a “state” of Hell can have gates (see Matt 16:18)?

In regard to purgatory, that was just a quick aside and not meant for comment since it is not on topic.

 

[Cashue]

in a verse in the book of revelations, (forgot the verse) that all dead will be judged and hell will “throw out it’s dead”. Doesn’t the CC teach that there is no way for the wicked ones out of hell?

the only ones who have hopes out from the flames however are the ones in purgatory, but how about this specific verses that hell will “throw out it’s dead”?

NO! This will never happen, hell is for eternity this verse is only saying that hell will spit out its dead so they can go back to hell and continue to be tortured for ever and ever!

 

[Benadam]

This passage describes the invisible spiritual realities becoming visible physical realities. The state of a soul eternally rejecting God will become a visible physical state and it’s rejection of God will appear. This would look like hell spitting out it’s dead because the souls that eternally reject God would “in a twinkling of an eye” become visible. They are those who St Paul refers to when he say’s ‘we will not all be changed’ The damned will not be changed by putting on incorruption but those who are heaven bound are changed.

 

[SunnaB16]

This is what I’ve come to expect from “devout” Roman Catholics (see SunnaB16’s “comments” to what I posted). There is no good argument against what I said,

To save your having to go back to an earlier post, heres the Bible translation comparison again: Douay Rheims Bible: "...and **death and *hell*** gave up their dead that were in them." New King James Version: "...and **death and *hades*** delivered up the dead ..." Revised Standard Version: "...**Death and *Hades*** gave up the dead in them." Good News Bible: "**Death and *the world of the dead*** also gave up the dead they had." Compare the Douay Rheims (revised circa 1750) passage with the Good News (1960s?) passage. The word "hell" has been replaced by "the world of the dead", because these days, "hell" has (for most of us) become more specific, and refers only to the state of the damned souls. In other words, there is a good argument against what you said. And there are others. Our Lords (human) soul went to the “abode” of the souls who couldn`t enjoy the Heavenly state until His mission was completed.
Some background to Gehenna/Hell was mentioned…

so there is an ad hominen attack upon me (and a red herring thrown in for good measure).

Eh? Its after 1:00am (Monday) here, and my eyes are hanging out. Wheres the red herring?
Speaking of red herrings, your reference to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a red herring (unintended). At the risk of sounding like a parrot: the recent restriction in "hell’`s meaning…

SunnaB16 ignored the comments I recalled hearing from my priest when I was **still very Catholic in high school **(which is very close to the comments I made), instead accusing me of receiving “false teaching” from whatever religion I embraced after leaving the RC Church. I did scan the CCC, and found no reference to Rev 20:13, but there were references to Hell (go here and search for Hell). If I’m wrong in my understanding, it’s because of what my priest taught when I was still Catholic.

“…still very Catholic in high school…” If your catechesis at school was no better than mine was…you wouldnt have learned much Catholic teaching... So you may well have ended up with a caricature of what the Church really is. At high school, i thought flying saucers were more exciting. Re the Catechism: Its no good just looking at paragraphs in isolation.

In reference to what the priest said:
The county jail would be “where” the disembodied immortal spiritual souls of the damned are: a STATE, rather than a PLACE.
Come Doomsday: the souls of the damned are (re)united with bodies “which” are shipped off to the penitentiary. But, its a bit of a misleading analogy. Do you understand that a spirit consists of intellect and will, and doesnt occupy 3-dimensional space? In other words, the county jail would have to continue to exist as a STATE for the souls of the damned. Or else, get rid of it right at the start. The closest that we come to “locating” a spirit is to say that a spirit is where “it:” acts. Or: a spirit is wherever “its” intellect and will are focussed.

I would ask SunnaB16 how it is that a “state” of Hell can have gates (see Matt 16:18)?

How about a metaphor? Our lord called Himself a “Vine” etc. The world`s full of metaphors.

In regard to purgatory, that was just a quick aside and not meant for comment since it is not on topic.

It may have been a “quick aside”, but you still mentioned it. So, i had a right to respond. You`re right to deny that such a “place” exists. In reply, i said that Purgatory is a STATE.

Instead of using that vague term “Former Roman Catholic”. why dont you be more specific? At least i dont hide where i stand.

Time to go beddy byes…

 

[Vile_Servant]

Hell, as in the abode of the dead, is only a state. Its the abode of spirits, and spirits dont occupy space.
Hell, as in the abode of the damned, is also only a state; and won`t become a place until after the General Judgement.

Incorrect. Hell is a place.

(Numbers 16:33)
And they went down alive into hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.