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Protestant101
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What did you do right? (guess we’d have to start another thread for that one? Merry Christmas my friend!)
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Yerusalyim
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Try a Catholic Charismatic Community.
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elvisman
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Thank you for the kind words, my friend.Well; now I understand why your posts have the general intonations that are seen on this forum. That would be a hard lump to take; and if I were in your shoes; I would be very upset about it all.
Some Catholics would have counsel and comfort for you; you should seek it heartily. I have some Catholic books that I think you would find comforting - they don’t have much to do with pointing out faults in non-Catholics, yet I know you would be uplifted by reading/studying the sources of comfort God has provided you through brethren in your Church. One book I am thinking of is called “My Only Friend Is Darkness,” and it focuses on “Living The night Of Faith With St. John of The Cross.” Sometimes, we just need comfort, and not to be right or wrong. I will pray for you; you seem like you need prayer. We all have times in our experience where we need that special testimony when we manifest fuller surrender to God’s penetrating and healing goodness.
May our Savior bless you; and keep you; and make His face to shine upon you. This is my prayer, in Jesus’ name. Amen
I’ve come to terms with my siblings and have read just about everything on how to deal with family members having left the fold. I pray for them daily.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
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tqualey
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Hi, Janet1983,
Hold on their, Janet…
You really have not presented an argument here - it appears as though you are just dis-engaging…
One of the really interesting aspects of history is that you can draw a line from one date to another and place events in chronological order. Like us writing a history of what happed 200 years ago by reading what was written in newspapers. Now, no one is claiming that newspapers are divinely inspired - just that they record what they think are earthly facts. With time, people get more information and present these ideas, too - so, those of us today reading what they wrote by during their time, can see what it is they thought at the time - and, how that thinking developed over time. This is how all history develops. And, that includes the history of the Church.
Just who do you think was presenting organized Christianity in the year 101AD? or 501or 1151? or 1501? I do not know what group you claim to be with now - if any - it really does sound like you are following your own whims in this matter - but, just put yourself on this line and and trace yourself back to the historical Christ and the Church He founded on Peter…and then note when you left.
God bless
Hold on their, Janet…
You really have not presented an argument here - it appears as though you are just dis-engaging…One of the really interesting aspects of history is that you can draw a line from one date to another and place events in chronological order. Like us writing a history of what happed 200 years ago by reading what was written in newspapers. Now, no one is claiming that newspapers are divinely inspired - just that they record what they think are earthly facts. With time, people get more information and present these ideas, too - so, those of us today reading what they wrote by during their time, can see what it is they thought at the time - and, how that thinking developed over time. This is how all history develops. And, that includes the history of the Church.
Here it is. Christmas Eve - and, you can draw a line from the birth of Christ to where you are today! Serioulsy, give it a try - we have the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascending of Christ into Heaven - all taking place in approximately the first 33 years of when we started to record modern history. Then by the year 100 we had St. John writing the last book of the NT. Then what?
Just who do you think was presenting organized Christianity in the year 101AD? or 501or 1151? or 1501? I do not know what group you claim to be with now - if any - it really does sound like you are following your own whims in this matter - but, just put yourself on this line and and trace yourself back to the historical Christ and the Church He founded on Peter…and then note when you left.
God bless
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Protestant101
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Well, sometimes those “earthly facts” are really all that we see in “history.” History is very interesting, but it can also be misleading. It depends who wrote it. And why they wrote it.Hi, Janet1983,
Hold on their, Janet…
One of the really interesting aspects of history is that you can draw a line from one date to another and place events in chronological order. Like us writing a history of what happed 200 years ago by reading what was written in newspapers. Now, no one is claiming that newspapers are divinely inspired - just that they record what they think are earthly facts.
When “history” tells us that the “first church” was “Roman Catholic;” we can know that the Bible reveals other Christian individuals and groups who were not Roman Catholics. The first “Church” happened in the first chapter of the Bible.
Roman Catholics cannot trace their Popes even half that far back, nor can their Church be found then either - yet there were believers in Christ “in the beginning.” People have been socialized to say what you claim about the Roman Catholic Church for eons; but that doesn’t make it accurate.
Many denominations have their own brands and sources of history that “prove” how they are the “first,” the “true” or the “remnant” church.
We have to go by the Bible rather than Church History, to see when the first Church members appeared. When Church history is supportive of the Biblical accounts, we can know it is reliable, and only then.
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Protestant101
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Thanks for the kind wishes. I was able to get out of the city and spend christmas in the countryside. What a blessing!Thank you for the kind words, my friend.
I’ve come to terms with my siblings and have read just about everything on how to deal with family members having left the fold. I pray for them daily.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
I had to reply to what you said about how you have read “everything” on how to deal with family members who have left the fold. If you don’t mind, I would like to offer a word of caution there. It doesn’t really matter what denomination we are talking about for the purpose of this comment I want to make - lets just say that I have read such literature from many denominations, including my own; and I find most of it to be very innacurate, and sometimes quite innapropriate to “share.”
I am reminded here of the little boy who let the dog in, just after Mom washed the floor. Rover went jovially all through the house, slipping and smearing his muddy paws all over the place. Well, the little boy got heck and had to clean up the damage; but after it all, he said assertively to his Mom: “Well, I still love him ANYWAYS.”
That’s probably the best thing we can do with someone who “leaves the fold.” Happy New year to you as you ponder this thought!! May God bless your family as you share His love!! :tiphat:
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benedictus2
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But what I have shown you and what others have shown you is that what you believe about the Catholic Church and Catholic doctrine is wrong. But it seems you persist on believing this even when you have been corrected.
Well no it’s not. The whole point of that answer which you seem to fail to grasp is that your answer and your belief (which you tried to support with a Biblical verse) does not hold water. But failure at logic is one key shortcoming of a lot of protestant theology. The kind of reasoning you have exhibited is just one such example.
That is you. But I sort of like to keep people thinking
. After all you are the one who left the church. I am trying to show you that you left the Church for the wrong reasons. Because there is no right reason ever t leave the church.And as we have shown, no we don’t. But if you persist in believing the lie that you have convinced yourself to belive I suppose that is all par for the course fo being protestant.
We cannot ask Mary and the saints to pray for us? You do - my friends and family do. I’m not sure what that’s going to get for you. I don’t - I pray to Jesus. He hears me. I don’t need to pray to Mary or the Saints.
Does that answer your questions?
Not really. Evading the heart of the question is not answering it. Your response boils down to I believe what i choose to belive whether right, wrong of indiferent.
Well, I know some day God will lead you back home to His true Church. In His time.
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benedictus2
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Well no. Christ did not say that we should venerate the saints. But God provided us these saints to be of help on our way to holiness. God does not do things without purpose.
As for the other teachings of the Church well we will need to look at them in detaill.
This is one thing that I would like people to answer. If it does not matter which Church one belongs to, then why did Jesus go to all the trouble of establishing a Church? He could have just written the NT Himself, promulgated a set cannon of scripture and said here follow this book.
Yet, He did not do that. What He did is establish A Church.
Catholicism is all about God’s will. It was God’s WILL to build a church. It is God’s willed that salvation should come via this Church.
The question is which one has priority in our lives, God’s will or ours?
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benedictus2
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That is true. But if you get a broader representative (good historians) then you will get to the truth regarding history. Interpretations of the event may differ (say in wars) but there will always be the truth that there was a war just told from different angles of the opposing sides.
A good example would be say Luther. What ever Luther’s reasons may be, the fact is the Church he left was the Catholic Church.
Well I have not seen in much of the posts here by protestants, once they get to the nitty gritty of the how and whys of salvation, any mention of love.
As a matter of fact, I said in one of my posts that “God is Love” and another protestant said something like “that is a ridiculous statement”.
While Calvinism may not be entirely representative of Protestantism, I think it is the underlying theology of most of evangelical and pentecostal theology. So really, most of Protestantism today is Calvinistic at heart.
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benedictus2
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I am reading a book by Peter Kreeft called “The Snakebite Letters” which is a kind of updated version of CS Lewis’s Screwtape letters.
Here Kreeft follows the same pattern of “letters of the senior devil giving advice to the junior devil.”
I think one of the sections go to the heart of the OP.
Here is the senior devil (Snakebite)'s advice to Braintwister (junior devil) regarding going to Church.
"… follow up your advantage with some preventative maintenace against repentance by strnogly stirring the tides of his soul in the direction of drifting away from church attendance.
The sacrifice of time it takes to go to church is a deliberate act of choice to give something precious ( a little of one’s lifetime) to the Enemy for no earthly, practical reason. That is extremely dangerous to us. We must blur the distinction between sacred time and secular time, between “their” time and and the Enemy’s time. …
If you can’t keep his body from going to church, at least stop his soul: pervert his motives. Get him to go for any other reason than an act of obedience and worship to the Enemy. Let him go not to give but to get something: comfort, or good feelings, or fellowship. He’ll soon stop going, for he can find those things more easily in a bar.
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benedictus2
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Ronin, if it does not matter what Church we belong to, why then did Christ establish His very own church? Why did Christ pray that we may be one? Why did Christ promise to send the Holy Spirit to guide His Church in to all truth?
This is similar to the question, does it matter if one is Christian or not? Are all beliefs the same? If they are, then why did Jesus have to come?
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benedictus2
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The Immaculate Conception does not refer to Jesus. It refers to the conception of Mary. The doctrine regarding Jesus’s conception is called the Incarnation.
Doing some saintly acts does not constitute a saint. A saint is one who we can say is for sure to be in God’s presence now. So therefore can intercede for us. In the same manner you pray for others, Saints can pray for us with greater efficacy. They have been declared righteous. The prayers of a righteous man are efficacious.
As a matter of fact you are the one who quoted that line from the Bible. So debunks your argument right there and then quite neatly.
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Protestant101
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“God’s will or our’s” is a fitting way to begin with any Bible topic. “A Church” is defined differently by as many different people as you would ask. This is what you are choosing to call “failing to grasp” by those who understand differently than you the Church and it’s make up.
God established His Church; yes! But did He say everyone had to agree with Catholics or with Adventists when he did this? You know the answer has to be no. You cannot deny that the Bible says you do not have to belong to a particular church to be saved and avoid going to hell. So now the question presents; do you yourself know why Jesus established His Church? What does official Catholic teaching tell you about that question that you could share with us here?
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benedictus2
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And this is you and others get so derailed. You think we are here to talk about hearts and intentions.
We are here to feret out the truth. That is why we debate. And in debates what we use is rational thought processes, not feelings and inclinations.
And truth can be arrived at via this forum if one is open to and capable of handling it.
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benedictus2
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That is a terribly misinformed assesment of the whole thing. It is very important because we are trying to discuss here truth against lie. The devil is the father of lies so we need to get to the truth. That is why this Catholic / Protestant debate is important. Because Christ said He is the Truth, therefore Truth is important.
And the division is something that the devil created. As PO18guy said: The Holy Spirit unites, the Devil divides.
Another thing that the devil is good at is fudging the issue.
As Peter Kreeft wrote in his books "Snakebite Letter"s the devil’s tactic is always to “dim the lights”. And one way of dimming the lights is to say that all religions are the same.
Because other denominations are coming from a lie. This is something that converts to Catholicism realize. That the lie is so interwoven into their thinking they cannot distinguish the truth. The smaller lies are even more insidious.
But that is just the thing. They don’t preace the truth that is in the Bible. Other denominiations do eisegesis (misinterpreting scripture by introducing their own ideas into it ) rather than exegesis (allowing scripture to speak for itself).
And the reason they misinterpret scripture is they do not have Sacred Tradition to draw from, Sacred Tradition upon which Scritpure was based.
And that is true. It would not be so bad if it remained there. What was worse was they fabricated lies. And you know who the father of lies is.
That is wonderful that you have done this.
And Catholics don’t say you need the saints to bring your sins in repentance to the Father. We pray for their intercession for temporal help. And they are marvelous at helping. When it comes to repentance, Jesus is clear as to who He has given that authority to forgive to, that is the priests in the sacarament of Confession.
Well, it does not matter what you think in this matter. What matters is what Christ thinks and wills. And this is what Christ thinks about it. He has given the power of forgiveness of sins to these men that He has chosen. Refer to John 20:21-23.
When you think about it, He did not have to do that. But HE DID DO IT. So again, it boils down to which one you follow: HIS WILL OR YOURS?
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benedictus2
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That is true. God indeed allowed it. God is more than capable of creating a greater good out of evil. He did that with Adam and Eve’s sin by sending us His Son. He will do the same thing with regards the Protestant rebellion.
And that is true, Martin Luther was well intentioned at the beginning. But as with good intentions, our pride can get in the way and that is what happened with his rebellion. If he had been more humble he would have been a real force for the good. He assesed the situation correctly. It was his solution which went wrong. Humility is always the key.
Yes, they do. Because without the guidance of tradtion, the Bible is very open to misinterpretation. The evangelicals get it so wrong that is why we end up with the “prosperity gospel” groups.
Well said. That is why we have the magisterium. It requires a lot of humility to submit our wills to the Church that Christ founded. But people who church hop don’t want to submit their wills. They want to decide for themselves, have everything their way. So pride again is the culprit.
In the end non-denominational means an idolatry of the self. It means the self decides, rather than God.
So it all comes back again to whose will takes pre-emininece in your life: God’s or yours.
When it comes to Church, the Bible is very clear which one is God’s will.
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benedictus2
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Let us know when you get there.I wonder if hell will hotter than the Arabian desert?
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benedictus2
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Look at it this way.
Christ specifically established a Church. If you leave the church because of lack of knowledge then of course it is not a mortal sin.
But many people leave the church because of pride or wilfullness. They want to have their way (usually has something to do with a sexual sin) so they leave for a church that allows them to have their way. Deep inside them, they know that what the Church teaches is true, but they want someone else to validate the evil that they are about to commit so they will feel good about committing it.
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benedictus2
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If people do not leave for doctrinal reasons, the only thing I can think of is because of slot (as Elvis said) or because of some moral teaching that they cannot abide by (contraception, fornication, divorce,etc,etc)
Other protestant churches have succumbed to the lie of the devil in these instances and have managed to sanitize these evils .
In this case, they are leaving the church so that they can sin without feeling guilty about it.
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benedictus2
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I am not TQualey and I am not even married, but what usually goes right in a marriage is making sure that it is a trinity: Husband, Wife and God in the midle.
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