Will I go to Hell

[benedictus2]

We have to go by the Bible rather than Church History, to see when the first Church members appeared. When Church history is supportive of the Biblical accounts, we can know it is reliable, and only then.

Yes, that is true. So we pick up from Pentecost and move on from there. The accounts in Acts is quite short, so we need to go back to outside sources. I think Josephus is one that most go to and also we have the other writings in the early church which though not canonized, shed light on the early church.

 

[benedictus2]

I have some Catholic books that I think you would find comforting - they don’t have much to do with pointing out faults in non-Catholics, yet I know you would be uplifted by reading/studying the sources of comfort God has provided you through brethren in your Church. One book I am thinking of is called “My Only Friend Is Darkness,” and it focuses on “Living The night Of Faith With St. John of The Cross.” Sometimes, we just need comfort, and not to be right or wrong. I will pray for you; you seem like you need prayer. We all have times in our experience where we need that special testimony when we manifest fuller surrender to God’s penetrating and healing goodness.

Yes, St John of the Cross is indeed a good guide in our spiritual journey. St Teresa of Avila is the same (both of them founded the Discalced Carmelites).

I would also recommend St Therese of Lissieux’s Story of a Soul - in particular Manuscript C.

But when everything is down, we should take heart in Jesus’s revelation to St Julian of Norwich: “All will be well, all manner of things shall be well”.
http://mariannedorman.homestead.com/JulianofNorwich.html

 

[Protestant101]

Yes, that is true. So we pick up from Pentecost and move on from there.

No, “we” don’t “pick up from Pentecost.” but even at Pentecost, there was more than one Christian Church/denomination. Catholics such as Josephus of course have led many to believe otherwise.

We “pick up from Genesis” and move on from there, if we believe ALL that the Bible says about Church.

 

[crenfro]

I very much want to quit the catholic church and become an
Assembly of God member. Am i doomed for hell?

I don’t fit in with the CC, there is no enthusiasm there.

Hello.

I haven’t read this thread so if you’ve already got this same answer please disregard.

First, look up at a crucifix for a long, good while. Do you understand, and have you sought to further your faith and understanding about why Jesus is up on that cross? Then pray. And go to confession and talk to the priest about what you just posted as soon as possible.

As I understand things, and please correct me if I’m wrong, for a sin to be mortal, it must be a sin of grave matter with full knowledge of the sinner and with deliberate consent of the sinner. The sin of apostasy, denying the Catholic faith, with these three attributes of mortal sin make it a grave sin.

I’d be very concerned about the state of my immortal soul if I knew these things then left the Catholic faith for another.

There are saints who didn’t fit in with the Catholic Church. For example, read some things about Saint Benedict Joseph Labre.

I will keep you in my prayers. Please pray for me.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, P101,

And, I had such hopes for you … sigh! Oh, well… let’s try again.

Well, sometimes those “earthly facts” are really all that we see in “history.” History is very interesting, but it can also be misleading. It depends who wrote it. And why they wrote it. And, just what do you propose?

When “history” tells us that the “first church” was “Roman Catholic;” we can know that the Bible reveals other Christian individuals and groups who were not Roman Catholics. The first “Church” happened in the first chapter of the Bible. Actually, P101, Genesis would be filled with instances of God’s Hand interveneing in history - so we go beyond Adam and Eve to Abraham and the Chosen People. But, the item you are obviously tortured with is Matt 16 when Christ built His Church on Peter. There isn’t anything after this in Scripture - and we have to wait almost 20 centuries to Ellen to come on the scene!

Roman Catholics cannot trace their Popes even half that far back, nor can their Church be found then either - yet there were believers in Christ “in the beginning.” People have been socialized to say what you claim about the Roman Catholic Church for eons; but that doesn’t make it accurate. Are you claiming that Adam and Eve believed in Christ? If so, you will really need to clarify this rather novel idea. Did Abraham believe in Christ? I do not think so - but, the ball is in your court P101 for documentation here.

This really isn’t a ‘socialization process’ - just go to Matt 16 (it took place about the year 33AD - and with your pencil start drawing a line. Draw it al the way to Ellen if you wish - but, please note, all the divisions and sub-divisions and sub-sub-divisions you must make once you leave the Church founded by Christ.

Many denominations have their own brands and sources of history that “prove” how they are the “first,” the “true” or the “remnant” church. Would you care to share Ellen’s claim?

We have to go by the Bible rather than Church History, to see when the first Church members appeared. I think we could go to the Apostles - the men chosen by Christ to follow Him in a special and intimate manner. These Apostles were recognized as the first Bishops - and later we see how Paul passed this Power of God on to Titus and Timmothy. And, you know what? It did not end there - with that same pencil you can trace this all the way to the Catholic Bishops of today!

When Church history is supportive of the Biblical accounts, we can know it is reliable, and only then. Seriously now - just what Bible account supports Ellen? If you are looking for reliability - yet are going to throw out history you disagree with - and supplant it with wishful thinking - your mission is doomed from the beginning. Honest.

Draw your lines from Christ and you will find that it is the heretics that formed their own break-away, man-made (or woman-made in your case) religions that form the core you now claim to base you happy state in. Time to move out of emotionalism and look at some hard facts - and these facts are from secular history.

God bless

 

[Protestant101]

Hi, P101,

And, I had such hopes for you … sigh! Oh, well… let’s try again.

I know Catholics like to call everyone else “breakaways;” but the fact remains that Catholics have stayed where Pharisees were, and it is Protestants who kept the faith once given to the saints. Jesus was a Protestant, it is Catholics who broke away from Protestants, and made their own version of Church, which they keep calling “first.”

 

[benedictus2]

No, “we” don’t “pick up from Pentecost.”

Actually yes we do. All Churches prior to Pentecost (if there were indeed others since the only religion back then is Judaism) are not considered Christian. So these have to be discounted. Jesus established his Church on the apostles. When Pentecost arrived, they started proclaiming the gospel. This is the birth of Christ’s Church. Any churches before then cannot be called Christian so is not relevant to the discussion.

but even at Pentecost, there was more than one Christian Church/denomination. Catholics such as Josephus of course have led many to believe otherwise.

No there weren’t. The apostles (including Paul) established churches but they all belonged to the one Christian group. That is why when there was a question about circumcision Paul had to go to the apostles to check up whether it was necessary or not. And this was the first council. The Council of Jerusalem.

And no, Josephus was not a Catholic. Josephus was a Jew who remained faithful to Judaism.

We “pick up from Genesis” and move on from there, if we believe ALL that the Bible says about Church.

No we don’t. Because as I have mentioned above, whatever church there was before Christ, it was not Christian. The religion was Judaism. But we do acknowledge that our tradition is Judeo Christian. But unlike Christians who believe that Jesus is the Christ, Jews are still waiting for the messiah.

The only religions that can be called Christians are those that came after Pentecost.

 

[benedictus2]

I know Catholics like to call everyone else “breakaways;” but the fact remains that Catholics have stayed where Pharisees were,

Not quite. The writers fo the NT who all happened to be Catholic were writing against the Pharisees.

and it is Protestants who kept the faith once given to the saints.

Very far from it. The protestants have in fact corrupted the faith given to the saints. But this is to be expected. Once they severed themselves from the Body of Christ, then doctrinal corruption is only a natural outcome.

Jesus was a Protestant,

Now that is rather ridiculous. He was not a protestant. He was not even protesting again the Judaism. How can He when His Father established that religion. What He came to do was fulfill the promise that is in Judaism. What he was railing against was what the blindness in the pharisees, i.e. their failure to see that He has come to fulfill the law not to abolish it, that He is the messsiah, the Son of the living of God as St Peter pronounced.
it is Catholics who broke away from Protestants, and made their own version of Church, which they keep calling “first.”
Extremely erroneous statement. If there was any religion that Catholics broke away from it was udaism. Originally, what the apostles did was worship along side the Jews during the Sabbath and then break bread on Sunday. You see Paul and the apostles doing this. Then the pharisees decided to run them out of the synagogue so they combined their reading from scripture with the breaking of the bread. This worship is what we now call the Mass.

 

[Protestant101]

Actually yes we do. All Churches prior to Pentecost (if there were indeed others since the only religion back then is Judaism) are not considered Christian. So these have to be discounted. Jesus established his Church on the apostles. When Pentecost arrived, they started proclaiming the gospel. This is the birth of Christ’s Church. Any churches before then cannot be called Christian so is not relevant to the discussion.

The only religions that can be called Christians are those that came after Pentecost.

I think that all of your answers can be summed up with what I have quoted from your above replies. Your entire response is based on the premise that no one who was in the old testament can be called “Christians.”

1. Lets say that you are correct: what does that mean for the church today?
2. Lets say that I am correct when I say that is not true, and that there were always Christians. What would/could that mean for the Church today?

 

[benedictus2]

I think that all of your answers can be summed up with what I have quoted from your above replies. Your entire response is based on the premise that no one who was in the old testament can be called “Christians.”

1. Lets say that you are correct: what does that mean for the church today?

I don’t really know.

The only thing I know is that there are Jews who have converted to Catholicism / Christianity and they found that they did not lose their jewishness by converting. In fact they became fulfilled Jews. This is especially true for those who became Catholics because they recognized in the the Mass the Todah - the Sacrifice of Thanksgiving and Praise.

1. Lets say that I am correct when I say that is not true, and that there were always Christians. What would/could that mean for the Church today?

Well I can’t make that assumption because it defies reason. How can there always be Christians before Christ?

Christianity is a belief that God became Incarnate, became human and dwelt amongst us in Jesus Christ. How can there have been Christians ( those who believed that Christ is God, the person of Jesus is God) before the Second Person of the Trinity was ever incarnate.

It would be a different proposition altogether if you were to say that there were people who believed in the coming Messiah before Christ. The problem is, when Jesus appeared, most of those who were waiting for the Messiah did not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, much less that He is God.

In Jesus time, the only one who confessed Him as the Messiah, the Son of God was Peter in Matthew 16. Prior to Pentecost no one believed this to be so. And Jesus said that the only reason Peter was able to acclaim Him as the Messiah was because the Father revealed that to Peter.

 

[freedomwriter]

I very much want to quit the catholic church and become an
Assembly of God member. Am i doomed for hell?

I don’t fit in with the CC, there is no enthusiasm there.

No, You will not go to hell for leaving the Catholic Church. Those are man made rules. You will not be leaving the “one true church that God started”. If you have truly given your heart and life to Christ, The “Word of God” says you will be saved. You can take comfort in the fact that the Holy Spirit is leading you to a church that will teach you the whole counsel of God. I and my family left the Catholic church 11 yrs ago and now attend Calvary Chapel. I have learned more in the first 6 months about God’s Word than the 33 yrs that i was at the catholic church.

God Bless

 

[benedictus2]

No, You will not go to hell for leaving the Catholic Church. Those are man made rules. You will not be leaving the “one true church that God started”. If you have truly given your heart and life to Christ, The “Word of God” says you will be saved. You can take comfort in the fact that the Holy Spirit is leading you to a church that will teach you the whole counsel of God. I and my family left the Catholic church 11 yrs ago and now attend Calvary Chapel. I have learned more in the first 6 months about God’s Word than the 33 yrs that i was at the catholic church.

God Bless

Quick question:

You were a Catholic for 33 years. What did you do at Mass (assuming that you attended Mass every Sunday and Holy days of obligation?

At Sunday Mass: There are 4 readings from the Bible. 1 from the Old Testament, 1 followed by Psalms, Readings from the Letters and finally the Gospel.

So what did you do when the Word of God was being proclaimed to you? Were you sleeping? Perving some girl/boy in the few? Thinking about work? Because honestly, there is no way of avoiding the Word of God at Mass. So what were you doing?

How is that Catholics know scripture without leaving the Catholic Church?

Let me ask you, how many readings from the Bible do you have in your Sunday service?

Is your pastor impartial about which books and verses to read or does he only concentreate on the ones he know and evade others?

I would be very interested in your reply.

 

[Answersplease]

No, You will not go to hell for leaving the Catholic Church. Those are man made rules.

Can you prove that?

You will not be leaving the “one true church that God started”.

Can you prove that?

If you have truly given your heart and life to Christ, The “Word of God” says you will be saved.

Can he give his heart and life to Christ while in the Catholic Church?
Barring any other reason that might send him to hell, will he be saved if he doesn’t leave but he still gives his heart and life to Christ?

If you have truly given your heart and life to Christ,

What does that mean exactly? And be specific with details.

If you have truly given your heart and life to Christ, The “Word of God” says you will be saved.

That’s not the first thing that Jesus The Christ said to the rich young ruler.
Doesn’t your religious community teach that “The Word of God” is Jesus The Christ?

You can take comfort in the fact that the Holy Spirit is leading you

Can you prove that?

to a church that will teach you the whole counsel of God.

Can you prove that?

the whole counsel of God

What is the whole counsel of God? And be specific.

and now attend Calvary Chapel. I have learned more in the first 6 months about God’s Word than the 33 yrs that i was at the catholic church.

What is “God’s Word”? And be specific.

 

[schaick]

That is not a very good reason to leave the Church that Jesus established. Church is not a place of entertainment but a place of worship. And yes, you could be putting your soul in danger. Do you know that the Catholic Church is the True Church, the one that Jesus established for you?

The One true Church was established by Jesus with HE HIMSELF as the cornerstone. All members of trinitarian churches hold the same basic tenents of faith and simply celebrate that faith differently.

The rock that Jesus built his church on is the statement of faith uttered by Peter:

Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “**You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” **

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

 

[jericho777]

The One true Church was established by Jesus with HE HIMSELF as the cornerstone. All members of trinitarian churches hold the same basic tenents of faith and simply celebrate that faith differently.

The rock that Jesus built his church on is the statement of faith uttered by Peter:

Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “**You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” **

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

^ +1 It’s not about religion it’s about relationship. We are called to abide in Him. John 15:4. He is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2.

 

[benedictus2]

The rock that Jesus built his church on is the statement of faith uttered by Peter:

Very wrong. The rock was Peter. So let’s break down the quote you supplied below.

Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “**You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” **

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are YOU, Simon son of Jonah,

The YOU here is Simon.

for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

The YOU here is Simon still

18And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church

In Aramaic which Jesus spoke, this reads: You are KEPHA and upon this kepha I will build my church. ( Kepha is the Aramaic for rock and explains why Paul and John refer to Simon Peter as Cephas)

Straigh English translation: You are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church.

So the Rock is not Peter’s statement of faith but Peter himself.

 

[benedictus2]

^ +1 It’s not about religion it’s about relationship. We are called to abide in Him. John 15:4. He is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2.

That is true in a way.

But tell me this, if it is not about religion, why did Jesus establish a Church instead of just writing the New Testament himself?

 

[jericho777]

That is true in a way.

But tell me this, if it is not about religion, why did Jesus establish a Church instead of just writing the New Testament himself?

We are called as the body to come together to do His will and that we would be built up in our faith Eph 4:10-12 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

As you know Jesus is the living incarnate Word of G-d that became flesh and dwel among us (He embodies the whole writ of scripture) and men under inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote scripture.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Quick question:

You were a Catholic for 33 years. What did you do at Mass (assuming that you attended Mass every Sunday and Holy days of obligation?

At Sunday Mass: There are 4 readings from the Bible. 1 from the Old Testament, 1 followed by Psalms, Readings from the Letters and finally the Gospel.

So what did you do when the Word of God was being proclaimed to you? Were you sleeping? Perving some girl/boy in the few? Thinking about work? Because honestly, there is no way of avoiding the Word of God at Mass. So what were you doing?

How is that Catholics know scripture without leaving the Catholic Church?

Let me ask you, how many readings from the Bible do you have in your Sunday service?

Is your pastor impartial about which books and verses to read or does he only concentreate on the ones he know and evade others?

I would be very interested in your reply.

Benedictus:

To be honest, the scripture readings at Mass, as you said, are taken from the Old Testament, Psalms, Epistles, and and the Gospel. So what you are getting is a short clip from each of those portions of scripture, read out of context. It is difficult to understand the true meaning of scripture when it is given in that way. It is like seeing short clips of a movie, apart from the rest of the movie. Again, you can’t understand the true meaning when portions are taken out of context.

A better way to understand the meaning of scripture is to read through a book of the Bible from beginning to end. So when former Catholics say they never learned the bible in the Catholic Church, this could be what they mean. That was certainly the case for me. I’ve learned far more of the bible in the 13 years since I left the Catholic Church than I did in the 38 years that I was a practicing (mass attending) Catholic.

 

[schaick]

Very wrong. The rock was Peter. So let’s break down the quote you supplied below.

Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “**You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” **

The YOU here is Simon.

The YOU here is Simon still

In Aramaic which Jesus spoke, this reads: You are KEPHA and upon this kepha I will build my church. ( Kepha is the Aramaic for rock and explains why Paul and John refer to Simon Peter as Cephas)

Straigh English translation: You are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church.

So the Rock is not Peter’s statement of faith but Peter himself.

Great explanation:
carm.org/is-peter-the-rock
*
•Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”
•Matt. 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”
•1 Cor. 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”
•1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed." *

*Furthermore, in John 1:42 it says, “He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas,” (which is translated Peter).” The word “Peter” here is petros, not petra. It is used to elucidate the Aramaic kephas which is not a name in Aramaic.

"Except in Jn. 1:42, where it is used to elucidate Aramaic kēphás, Pétros is used in the NT only as a name for Simon Peter…The translation supports the view that Kēphás is not a proper name, since one does not usually translate proper names."1*

What did Peter do that a whole church should be built around him with him as the foundation? Is he the savior? Did he do miracles on his own?

What is Peter’s foundation?-“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

What is every Christian’s foundation?-“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”