Will I go to Hell

[Richard_Kastner]

In Jesus time, the only one who confessed Him as the Messiah, the Son of God was Peter in Matthew 16. Prior to Pentecost no one believed this to be so. And Jesus said that the only reason Peter was able to acclaim Him as the Messiah was because the Father revealed that to Peter.

This is just wrong.
Matt.1:20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luke 1:30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luke1: 67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Here are just three of them that believed in Jesus before Peter. There are others. But your statement brings up a good question. What is the old testament about? Is it just an account of the Jews and if so why do we have it? I mean what’s the point?
I think Zacharias above gives us a clue. It says:“Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied” and Matt 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. and Matt. 20: 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

What was Zacharias talking about when he prophecised. What was Jesus talking about when He talked about the law and the prophets.

Rev19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

When an angel of God appears to John to tell him of the marraige feast of the Lamb (uniting of Christ with His church throughout eternity) John falls down to worship him, but the angel says, don’t do that because I am not God but a brother prophet, **“for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” ** So, what Zacharias did was talk about Jesus. What John and the angel talked about was Jesus, what all the prophets talked about was Jesus. So, when Jesus says:40On these two commandments hang all the **law and the prophets. ** He is talking about the law (ten commandments) that show us we are sinners and the prophets (testimony of Jesus Christ) which show us the solution to the sin problem. This leads us to your second point.

Well I can’t make that assumption because it defies reason. How can there always be Christians before Christ?

As I have shown above. Rev 19:10b for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Christianity is a belief that God became Incarnate, became human and dwelt amongst us in Jesus Christ. How can there have been Christians ( those who believed that Christ is God, the person of Jesus is God) before the Second Person of the Trinity was ever incarnate.It would be a different proposition altogether if you were to say that there were people who believed in the coming Messiah before Christ. The problem is, when Jesus appeared, most of those who were waiting for the Messiah did not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, much less that He is God.

The first prophecy in the bible is Gen 3:15 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Which is Jesus telling Satan that there would always be bad feelings (enmity) between him and God’s church (woman). Here is where Jesus starts His church. The bible is about the controversy between God and Satan and about the ultimate victory of Christ and His church. You seem to think that the people of the old testament were saved some other way. But doesn’t Jesus tell us. Jn.14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. What he means by this is exactly what he says, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” This includes the patriarchs of the old testament.

 

[tqualey]

Hold on there, P101… this statement of yours truly deserves some careful review…

I know Catholics like to call everyone else “breakaways;” but the fact remains that Catholics have stayed where Pharisees were, and it is Protestants who kept the faith once given to the saints. Jesus was a Protestant, it is Catholics who broke away from Protestants, and made their own version of Church, which they keep calling “first.”

Now, let me see if I understand you correctly… (all dates are approximate…)

1 - 29 Christ is born, escapes into Egypt, returns, at about age 12 found in Temple, lives non-public life

30-33 Begins Public Ministry, calls Apostles, changes water into wine at Canna, gives the keys and all authority to Peter (Matt 16), promises He will always be with Church, dies, rises for dead, three timex re-affirms Peter’s role as leader of the Apostles (John 21) ascends into Heaven, sends Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

34-100 All of the New Testament is written, last Apostle, John, dies.

100- 787 Catholic Church met several times and, under the direction of the Holy Spirt, forumlated the following:

    325 - The First Council of Nicaea formulated the original Nicene Creed. Most importantly, the council defined the equality of God Father and Christ, his son. It taught, that Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father and not just merely similar, and repudiated Arianism.

    431 - The Council of Ephesus proclaimed the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos ("Mother of God").  It rejected Nestorianism.

    451 - The Council of Chalcedon defined the two natures (divine and human) of Jesus Christ. 

    553 - Second Council of Constantinople The Council again dealt with the issue of the two natures of Christ, as monophysitism had spread through Christianity despite the decisions of Chalcedon. 

    680 - Third Council of Constantinople repudiated Monothelitism, and reaffirmed that Christ, being both human and divine, had both human and divine wills. 

    787 - Second Council of Nicea The council discussed and restored of the veneration of icons using the Bible and tradition of the Church as arguments. Pictures of Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints were used to stimulate piety and imitation.

For brevity - let’s see what we have for the first 800 years of history: the basic beliefs of the Christian faith in general (as generally recognized by most main streat protestant groups) and the Catholic Faith in particular. All traced out in historic terms using a secular source en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ecumenical_Councils

And, your position is that the Catholic Church “…stayed where the Pharisees were…” we you guys finally managed to get the light in 1517 when Luther posted his 95 Theses? So, all of this time the Church that Christ promised to protect from the Gates of Hell was … on ‘automatic pilot’ awating Luther & Co to begin the process of splintering (ah, don’t forget, Ellen had to wait in a long line of people wanting to splinter from the last splinter group…).

Are you sure this is your basic position - for 16 centuries (20 in Ellen’s case…) Christ had abandoned His Church? This is really a critical quesiton and depends on your honest look at real world history.

In my opinion, and based on the evidence I have presented, there is no way that your statement has any validity.

God bless

 

[jericho777]

Quote:
Christianity is a belief that God became Incarnate, became human and dwelt amongst us in Jesus Christ. How can there have been Christians ( those who believed that Christ is God, the person of Jesus is God) before the Second Person of the Trinity was ever incarnate.It would be a different proposition altogether if you were to say that there were people who believed in the coming Messiah before Christ. The problem is, when Jesus appeared, most of those who were waiting for the Messiah did not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, much less that He is God.

Because the bible is one continous book. G-d over time revealed His will and purposes to mankind and Israel through the bible. The blood of bulls and goats could never save any one. It was the looking forward to the coming Messish of the torah and prophets and us looking back at the finished work of Christ on the cross. Christ is savior from Genisis to Revelation. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forevermore. In Genisis 1:1 the word for God is Eloheim which is a singular plural form of the word God. Incidently Eloheim is the third word mentioned in Gen 1:1 Bereshit bara Eloheim

People were looking for the warrior king not the suffering servent.

 

[Protestant101]

Hold on there, P101… this statement of yours truly deserves some careful review…

Now, let me see if I understand you correctly… (all dates are approximate…)

1 - 29 Christ is born, escapes into Egypt, returns, at about age 12 found in Temple, lives non-public life

30-33 Begins Public Ministry, calls Apostles, changes water into wine at Canna, gives the keys and all authority to Peter (Matt 16), promises He will always be with Church, dies, rises for dead, three timex re-affirms Peter’s role as leader of the Apostles (John 21) ascends into Heaven, sends Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

34-100 All of the New Testament is written, last Apostle, John, dies.

100- 787 Catholic Church met several times and, under the direction of the Holy Spirt, forumlated the following:

    325 - The First Council of Nicaea formulated the original Nicene Creed. Most importantly, the council defined the equality of God Father and Christ, his son. It taught, that Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father and not just merely similar, and repudiated Arianism.

    431 - The Council of Ephesus proclaimed the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos ("Mother of God").  It rejected Nestorianism.

    451 - The Council of Chalcedon defined the two natures (divine and human) of Jesus Christ. 

    553 - Second Council of Constantinople The Council again dealt with the issue of the two natures of Christ, as monophysitism had spread through Christianity despite the decisions of Chalcedon. 

    680 - Third Council of Constantinople repudiated Monothelitism, and reaffirmed that Christ, being both human and divine, had both human and divine wills. 

    787 - Second Council of Nicea The council discussed and restored of the veneration of icons using the Bible and tradition of the Church as arguments. Pictures of Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints were used to stimulate piety and imitation.

For brevity - let’s see what we have for the first 800 years of history: the basic beliefs of the Christian faith in general (as generally recognized by most main streat protestant groups) and the Catholic Faith in particular. All traced out in historic terms using a secular source en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ecumenical_Councils

And, your position is that the Catholic Church “…stayed where the Pharisees were…” we you guys finally managed to get the light in 1517 when Luther posted his 95 Theses? So, all of this time the Church that Christ promised to protect from the Gates of Hell was … on ‘automatic pilot’ awating Luther & Co to begin the process of splintering (ah, don’t forget, Ellen had to wait in a long line of people wanting to splinter from the last splinter group…).

Are you sure this is your basic position - for 16 centuries (20 in Ellen’s case…) Christ had abandoned His Church? This is really a critical quesiton and depends on your honest look at real world history.

In my opinion, and based on the evidence I have presented, there is no way that your statement has any validity.

God bless

Yes indeed and when a “careful review” is done; it can be seen that your mistakes start in your accounting for 30-33 AD above in your last post. But your biggest mistake is trying to present as rock-solid evidence, as some kind of reliable fact, information gleaned from Wickipedia, which is known to be populated by activists with less than objective viewpoints; and certainly, not always accurate. It is certainly not “real world history.” No need to question my honesty on that count. It has nothing to do with who I am or where I am on this issue. Just take the facts I am presenting and judge only them; not me.

“Use of a secular source” does not denote a truthful, relevant source of facts. According to the protestant tradition; I am going by the Bible alone on this one. Kostner, in an above post gave just a few of the reasons I would also give.

Your reference to “Ellen” is quite irrelevant, as she was not the founder of our Church.

One example of your many mistakes is where you mention The Council of Chalcedon, as if this was the first time anyone ever stated the two natures of Christ, but this was done long before there was ever any such thing as The Roman Catholic Church. The Old Testament provides us with all the details we need on that.

The Catholic claim that they were the first Christians is patently false. It’s something they have worked very hard both within their church and through secular sources to convince people of; yet, upon a closer look, it can be seen to be falsehood.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed. There seems to be many topics going on here - which can be taken up in their own threads if you wish.

Thank you and God bless-

Rachel