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Cristiano
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Do you know who is your father?
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Robertanthony
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Exactly. Why does God have to “suffer” the scrutiny of your if-I-don’t-see-it-it-doesn’t-exist mind, whereas I’m sure there’s lots of things (true or false) that you swallow hook, line, and sinker?
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Armor_of_Light
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…bolding by me…
Well now that is just grasping at semantic straws.
You must believe in something that cannot be proven…? Who do rely on for the proof? Surely not yourself in all cases. Also, I’d love to hear you explain Fatima to me. I have never proposed this to an atheist before, so It is an honest question.
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Poseidon
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I’m not sure what the principle of noncontradiction is, but my intent when I asked people not to psychoanalyze me was to keep people on the question, and to avoid people telling me that I’m angry at God and such.
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PeterGStanley
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Well you have rejected God there really isn’t much more to say - you’ve made your choice - I can’t say what your judgement will be - hopefully God’s mercy exceeds all imagination.
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Poseidon
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Fatima is an excellent question, and my answer to you is that I can’t explain it. It really does seem to be an example of a real miracle. However, the miracles at Fatima by themselves do not convince me that the Christian God exists, because while they do appear to be supernatural in origin, they don’t answer any of the objections I have about the existence of God (e.g. the problem of evil). It’s also possible that there is a perfectly naturalistic explanation for them that we just don’t know about. Maybe something about the human mind that allows so many people to see the same illusion, or maybe even some aliens with very advanced technology were having a bit of fun at our expense (I certainly am not saying that I believe this, I’m just trying to illustrate a point that Fatima by itself does not prove God. It’s a piece of evidence in his favor, but not, in my mind, enough to give an unequivocal answer.).
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Armor_of_Light
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I just Wikipedia’d it. Holy cow…good luck. Kind of makes sense though.
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insideitall
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poseidon, I’m curious as to how you decided god doesn’t exist. were there certain books you read, or a particular argument someone posed to you?
as an aside, I believe it is up to the individual to determine *why *they believe what they believe. there are a lot of catholics who say they don’t agree with certain church teachings… but when asked why, they either “just know” the teachings are wrong, or they give a potentially logically sound argument that starts from a false premise, or they are arguing against something that isn’t actually what the teaching is!
I knew many people in college who were atheists because the idea that there could be a god was just too ridiculous to accept… but so was the idea for people a long time ago that the earth actually went around the sun. their not believing that didn’t make it any less true
and they all failed to see how that argument was intellectually dishonest.
as an aside, I believe it is up to the individual to determine *why *they believe what they believe. there are a lot of catholics who say they don’t agree with certain church teachings… but when asked why, they either “just know” the teachings are wrong, or they give a potentially logically sound argument that starts from a false premise, or they are arguing against something that isn’t actually what the teaching is!
I knew many people in college who were atheists because the idea that there could be a god was just too ridiculous to accept… but so was the idea for people a long time ago that the earth actually went around the sun. their not believing that didn’t make it any less true
and they all failed to see how that argument was intellectually dishonest.
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Poseidon
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I hope that you don’t really mean that it’s beyond your imagining for God to accept someone like me - a lack of belief is really not that terrible a sin
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Armor_of_Light
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Good. Thank you. So you believe in something (or acknowlege its existence) that cannot be explained. The pysical reality is not the only reality.
Evil is the result of our free will. Nothing more. Are ducks evil? No. they are perfect the way they are because God created them that way without free will. God loves us above all to give us free will, with which we can choose to serve Him (after seeking Him and finding Him of course) or not. “I’m a good person…bla bla bla” does not cut it! Not even for people who believe in God. You have morals and a conscience because God gave them to you. You can love because he first loved you.
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Poseidon
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I acknowledge the existence of things that cannot be explained yet. There may be a day when we know just what happened at Fatima. Maybe we’ll find out it was God. Maybe we’ll find out it was mass hysteria. Maybe we’ll find out it was aliens. Maybe we’ll find out it was all a fabrication. I have no idea. It does not necessarily mean that the physical reality is not the only reality. It means that there’s something we can’t explain, and one of the hypotheses put forward to explain it is supernatural intervention.
As for the problem of evil, that’s not something I want to get into on this thread, since there are a lot of other threads out there on that specific topic, and it’s a whole can of worms that we don’t need to open here.
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Armor_of_Light
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bolding by me
So, maybe you don’t believe in God…yet? I hope so. I’m continuing on in this thread out of concern for you and all atheists.
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Poseidon
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Certainly. If someone could present to me evidence or an argument that provides enough evidence for the existence of God then of course I would believe in him. As it stands though, I haven’t seen that evidence or heard that argument. So at least for now, I’ll live my life under the assumption that there is no God.
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Armor_of_Light
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I wish you well. I pray for you. I hope to see you in heaven. That means we will both have to get there!!
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insideitall
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just bumping my previous post down a bit, I think it got lost in the shuffle above!poseidon, I’m curious as to how you decided god doesn’t exist. were there certain books you read, or a particular argument someone posed to you?
as an aside, I believe it is up to the individual to determine *why *they believe what they believe. there are a lot of catholics who say they don’t agree with certain church teachings… but when asked why, they either “just know” the teachings are wrong, or they give a potentially logically sound argument that starts from a false premise, or they are arguing against something that isn’t actually what the teaching is!
I knew many people in college who were atheists because the idea that there could be a god was just too ridiculous to accept… but so was the idea for people a long time ago that the earth actually went around the sun. their not believing that didn’t make it any less true
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CatherineOH
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psychoanalyzing aside your question is intellectually illogical.
If you don’t believe Hell existed, then why ask the question?
With all respect, I think you need to revisit your “intellectual objections.”
I’m serious about this as I have found that there are many who think they are atheist, but when I hear them talk, they talk themselves right back into believing.
Something to think about. Are you truly an Atheist, Agnostic or a Nontheistic
Sometimes it just takes time.
Though I was never a non believer, I am 49 and have just converted.
I too hope I make it to Heaven, and that I see you there.
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Bonjovie
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The thing is, Poseidon, that if there is a God, then He is infinitely superior to everything. Now, while it is nice that you want to know for sure if there is a God, this God, if He exists makes the rules. Why? Because he made you and everything. So why then would He require “faith” as the prerequisite for being in Him or with Him? Because it is with faith that one can bridge the gap between our reason and who He is. If God can be explained prefectly by reason and science, there would be no difference between Him and the things He had created now, would there?
I wish we could see things through the eyes of an infinite being who keeps things in existence. How could they know me by using materials I gave them? They can only suspect or perceive me.
Do you perceive God from the universe Poseidon? Or, do you think that there is a posibility that everything “just happened”? (If this life wasn’t supposed to have a meaning, why do we feel the need for things to last? Why do we preserve things? How can something be hard-wired if it never existed? Why would we even want a society? What would we care?)
And then,why would He ask for Faith when He could just reveal Himself unreservedly? This God, it would seem, does not want zombies. He wants creatures who would be with Him because they wanted to, so He chose not to make that decision for us. Since He could do everything, He gave us, along with reason, free-will. This he did not give to other creatures on earth. To put it in another way, he put within our reach the “choice” of hurting Him by rejecting Him. Now I find it funny that the other poster Nonserviam (even his alias is scary) says how can God allow him to suffer in hell. I ask him some questions- did he choose to be born? Somethings are left out of choice and are left to nature and providence. How is it that he can choose to believe in something or not to believe? Can he explain why somethings don’t sound quite right? What makes him feel he would be suffering in Hell? Hell can only be bad if a God exists and that God has all goodness in Him, in which case anything outside of Him is-bad. But more to the point, if not believing in God feels right, and thinking that God, if He does exist in the way that people (Christians) believe He does, is unjust and can be likened to a tyrant, and at the end of His life he realises that God does exist but that he can’t be with Him because of his choices and that he has to go to hell, tell me, why would it hurt him? If one hates God, hell is the best place for him to be because it is the one place where he would be free of that tormenting presence. God is simply allowing him to be where he always wanted-away from him forever. Pain comes from deprivation. He can only be pained if he realises that being with God would have meant life and he cannot have that life now. So who really causes the pain and the hurt, God? I don’t think so.
The visible pointers to God’s existence are there for everyone to take notice of if they please. If the burning sun shining everyday is explained away as cosmic forces, then even if God were to show His very Face, we would still explain it away with something else.
The real question for each person is this: A man in Asia saw the world and believed in God; one in Africa saw and believed too, in America the same and everywhere-I see the world and I don’t believe in God. Is something wrong with the world, or with the people in it, or with me?
Has science found a perfectly reasonable evidence for the creation of the world and all that is in it? If we are the centre of the universe, why do some things still lie outside our control? (The atheist scientist would say, “for now” but why should things evolve at all if man is the centre of the universe? He should have nothing to learn, no one to teach him, he can’t make mistakes or be wrong about things, there should be perfect unity and consent between all mankind and no one would try to be superior to the other because there is no higher state-we are at the highest level, right?
Seeing, however, that we are none of this things, is it ridiculous to think that there exists this highest state, this perfect unity, this lack of neediness, this total knowledge, and autonomy in decision making, in fact, this GOD?
Isn’t it more pitiful to clutch feverishly and delude ourselves that we possess powers millions and billions of generations of the same mankind did not have?
Is it madness to hold that since we sense this perfection, irrespective of geographical location and generation, it does exist?
Is it silly to realise that things happen which human nature couldn’t possibly account for? What makes miracles miracles? Is it not that something extra-ordinary has happened?
I do know one thing; as long as we set ourselves as the centre and creators of the world we will lack the humility that is required to admit that not everything is within our power and that the “universe” or “nature” are not beings. They do not regulate themselves but are kept in existence and bound to keep to certain modes d’emploi.
Humility is required for faith and faith is the proof we give to God that we are humble and can now begin to know Him.
To know God requires faith, and you can’t see Him and know Him until you at least allow yourself to think that He could be there.
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Bonjovie
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Only the day mankind can create himself and the universe without any material can he decide what is fair and what is not. Until then, to use the analogy of a tyrant or some mafia person only reveals a pitiful and sorry attempt to place man as the centre of the universe. Be humble, Non-serviam, your very name suggests that you don’t know what it means to be humble. Admiting your insufficiency takes nothing out of you. God does not hide Himself from those who sense and seek Him. However, He resists the proud. Why? Because they wish to wrestle from Him the very things He provides for them, putting Him out of the picture. He is patient in that He doesn’t immediately take these things away, butb leaves and sometimes increases them so that the soul would have no excuse.
I will be praying for you two…
I will be praying for you two…
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NonServiam
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Because atheism (not accepting the claim that any gods exist) is the default position: for any claim, the default is not to accept the claim until there is sufficient evidence for the claim.
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NonServiam
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No, actually.
This is a massive side-step of the issue.
No atheist is “requesting” to spend eternity without some great reward. Atheists are simply not convinced of a claim.
I don’t think it’s fair to deny someone a great reward (or, allow that person to experience the pains of not having that reward, or allow that person to be tormented forever…whichever flavor of spin you prefer) simply because that person was not convinced of a claim. You apparently do think it’s fair, which tells us an awful lot about your values.
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