Will Jesus judge people into heaven (through Him) or Hell based on conduct?

[francisca]

Hi everyone,

I’d like to once again make it more clear that : I am not against works, nor the ten commandments, and the judgement of God based on our conducts.

My stress is on HOW we can keep the commandments, since this is the key.

We all know that we are all sinners, so how do we go to heaven?

This is my stress on the matter of FAITH.

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Regarding the “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the Lutherans”

The Joint Declaration was signed on 31-Oct 1999 by representatives of Lutheran World Federation and of the Roman Catholic Church in Augsburg, Germany. This comming October will be the 6th anniversary of the declaration.

Both sides has come to a “consensus on the basic truths”. And I am not totally with the idea that this document is “only for ecumenical purpose” without-- from our part-- having to sincerely believe in the points which we have come to an agreement. There are differences but those are no longer a matter of doctrinal condemnations :
The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:

Preamble

1. The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church9 are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ. It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification; it does encompass a consensus on basic truths of the doctrine of justification and shows that the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnations.

4.6 The Assurance of Salvation

1. Catholics can share the concern of the Reformers to ground faith in the objective reality of Christ’s promise, to look away from one’s own experience, and to trust in Christ’s forgiving Word alone (cf. Matthew 16:19; 18:18) . With the Second Vatican Council, Catholics state: to have faith is to entrust oneself totally to God,(19) who liberates us from the darkness of sin and death and awakens us to eternal life.(20) In this sense, one cannot believe in God and at the same time consider the divine promise untrustworthy. No one may doubt God’s mercy and Christ’s merit. Every person, however, may be concerned about his salvation when he looks upon his own weaknesses and shortcomings. Recognizing his own failures, however, the believer may yet be certain that God intends his salvation.

elca.org/ecumenical/ecumenicaldialogue/romancatholic/jddj/jddj_guide.html

elca.org/ecumenical/ecumenicaldialogue/romancatholic/jddj/declaration.html

americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articletypeid=1&textID=544&issueID=276&search=1

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You know guys, When I was baptised in the roman catholic church as a girl of 10 year old, I was “sure” of my salvation because of that baptism. And I had never questioned this until a few years ago somebody “very catholic” told me “the difference” of our teaching compared to the protestant’s.

But this did not change my mind about the assurance of Jesus Cross in my salvation. Even as I read about “judgements & punishments”, I am still sure that I will pass those over because of Jesus. So am I a catholic, or is it better that I go to one of the protestant churches and give myself to be rebaptized there?

This is what my heart has resolved : that I am not going to declare my salvation as “unsure” because I know what Jesus has done for me in my life. Am I condemned because of this?

---

God the Holy Spirit has given a testimony in my life of God’s Love, make me understand God’s Word, giving me more and more of assurance of His Love & Faithfulness to me.

And I believe every word of what Paul wrote here in the most literal meaning :

Romans 8
37 …in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, 9 nor future things, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

bless you all

 

[Catilieth]

Francisca,
Faith is a work. It is something we do in response to God’s freely given Grace. Faith is not something passive, it is an active response…so you are of necessity **doing ** something. We do not merit salvation by our faith but by the Grace of God.

Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary has “saved all of creation”. That does not mean that everyone in the world will go to heaven…you only need to read the Bible to see that many go elsewhere (by their own choices). And we also know that God wills that all men be saved. He offers his Grace to all men, …and then he gives us free will. We now have a choice…we can accept his grace, cooperate with it and believe…or we can reject it. So it is by Grace that we gain salvation, but our first “work” is to cooperate with God’s Grace.

As for the assurance of my salvation, I for one do not claim to be greater than St. Paul. He made it very clear that he was on constant guard, mortifying himself and striving by his behavior, not to loose his salvation. If the great St. Paul could loose his salvation after all that he had done for Christ and His Church, then I really need to pray and “watch my P’s and Q’s”.

As a Catholic, I realize that I can accomplish not one good thing without the help of God’s Grace, so that any good that I do is to God’s credit, not mine and any evil that I do is totally of my doing. That doesn’t absolve me from striving with all my might to do good and to love God with all my heart, for that is plainly how we will be judged at the end of our lives and at the end of time.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Catilieth:

And probably 70 - 90% fornicate and another 50% commit adultery. The popes also teach that these are mortal sins and can land you in hell . The popes teach this because it is the truth, not it is the truth because the popes teach it. Until 193? all Protestant denominations acknowledged that contraception was intrinsically evil, then modern thought took hold of them and they changed their teachings. Contraception has be recognized as sinful since the time of the old testament (the sin of Oman-for which God struck Oman dead).
The question is not so much will someone go to hell because he rejected papal teaching, but will one go to hell for committing grievous sins. The answer is obvious…grievous sin causes one the loss of heaven(i realize that such sins are forgiven in confession, but only if one is repentant). The popes merely point us to the Truth which is eternal and unchanging.
Now, you may not like the Truth…few people really do. And as a Catholic, one cannot claim that they were never told the truth. Therefore, especially as a Catholic, to practice contraception is a grievous sin, a mortal sin, and those that contracept will be judged by their actions. To say otherwise is to say that you believe that we are judged according to those works we agree to do.

Hello Catilieth,

I am told by other Catholics on other threads that Popes do not bind non-Catholics to papal bindings. If papal bindings were just pointing out grave sin how can papal bindings not be just as binding, other than invincible ignorance, on non-Catholics?

Is there or is there not going to be two standards of judgement. One where Catholics will be judged on contraception because Popes have bound this as mortal sin upon them and One where Protestants will not be judged on contraception because Popes have not bound this as mortal sin upon them?

Jesus left St. Peter in authority over all His flock. Why do Popes only use their Christ given authority to bind mortal sin, with the threat of eternal damnation, on Catholics alone?

Or are these Catholics in error who claim that papal bindings are not bound on non-Catholics?

Does papal use of the “keys to the Kingdom” to call upon Jesus to “hold sins bound in heaven”, upon Catholics only, have any effect on our salvation? Is there any variation on the judgement of souls between Catholics held bound and Protestants not held bound by papal use of the “Keys to the Kingdom”?

 

[Catilieth]

The Church’s teachings on what is moral and immoral (sinful and not sinful) are binding on everyone, not just Catholics. It’s more of a question of whether others accept the teachings. For example, abortion. Most protestant denominations now accept abortion as an alternative (not always desirable, but acceptable). Many(if not most) protestant denominations are also caving in on the homosexual issue. So, since the Church (and by default her popes) says abortion is intrinsically evil, is it binding to non-Catholics that belong to denominations that okay it? In other words, is it killing a human child only if you are Catholic, and merely an option if you are not??? Is engaging in homosexual behavior sinful or not?? It doesn’t matter what church you belong to, you are bound by the truth.
Some issues are more in line with Church legal issues…aspects of Canon law or such things as to whether one is to eat meat on Fridays. At one time the Bishops , as our shepherds, bound Catholics to perform this abstinance as a sign of unity and a common sacrifice. That was not binding to non-Catholics. There is no sin in eating or not eating meat on Fridays, the sin was in disobeying a direct “order” from the Church, and was not binding on those who were not Catholic.
Do you see the difference?

 

[Matt16_18]

Steven Merten:

… Do those who do not practice artificial birth control “merit” eternal life more than those who practice artificial birth control?

I see that you are having a hard time accepting this teaching in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:“One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God …”

 

[Steven_Merten]

Catilieth:

The Church’s teachings on what is moral and immoral (sinful and not sinful) are binding on everyone, not just Catholics. It’s more of a question of whether others accept the teachings. For example, abortion. Most protestant denominations now accept abortion as an alternative (not always desirable, but acceptable). Many(if not most) protestant denominations are also caving in on the homosexual issue. So, since the Church (and by default her popes) says abortion is intrinsically evil, is it binding to non-Catholics that belong to denominations that okay it? In other words, is it killing a human child only if you are Catholic, and merely an option if you are not??? Is engaging in homosexual behavior sinful or not?? It doesn’t matter what church you belong to, you are bound by the truth.
Some issues are more in line with Church legal issues…aspects of Canon law or such things as to whether one is to eat meat on Fridays. At one time the Bishops , as our shepherds, bound Catholics to perform this abstinance as a sign of unity and a common sacrifice. That was not binding to non-Catholics. There is no sin in eating or not eating meat on Fridays, the sin was in disobeying a direct “order” from the Church, and was not binding on those who were not Catholic.
Do you see the difference?

Hello Catilieth,

I invite you to visit and comment. Did JP2 abolish anathema spiritual death Church punishments?

I am told by fellow Catholics on this forum that most Church encyclicals, dogmas and cannons have spiritual death anathema’s backing them up. Some claim that Pope John Paul II abolished the spiritual death anathema’s when he redesigned the CCC in 1984. If it is true that Pope’s only point out what is mortal sin in papal bindings, obviously a Pope could not abolish a spiritual death anthema backing up a Church cannon.

Here is an example of a Church canon backed up with a spiritual death anathema. A Church canon that most Protestants stand guilty of anathematization.

CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

Anathema

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

**NAB MAT **16:13

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[Catilieth]

And the Bible clearly says that who ever does not eat of Christ’s body and drink of Christ’s blood shall not have life within them (eternal life). Not an easy thing to think about when one thinks of dear friends who do not believe, but so it is.

As Aragorn told Eomer when Eomer asked,“How shall a man judge what to do in such times?”
“As he ever has judged,” said Aragorn, “good and ill have not changed since yesteryear, nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.”

So, we redouble our efforts in prayer and in deeds to bring our friends back into the fold, so that they may live in the light of the Truth.

As far as your reference to the True Presence, either it is true or false. It doesn’t matter how sincerely I believe the train is headed for Philadelphia, it either is or it isn’t . My sincerity and conviction does not determine truth. Many people are sincerely wrong. And if the Bible teaches that one must eat of His body and Drink of his Blood, and the Church also unfailingly teaches it, they it must be so. Perhaps invincible ignorance is not an available excuse for most, but I would venture to say that the example given by many if not most Catholics, as we fail to live up to our faith, scandalizes others and we are in part guilty for their unbelief. As Ghandi said, if Christians truly lived their faith, there would be no Hindus in India.

 

[Pug]

I would like to add a clarification for the general audience in case there is a confusion. The glossary is not part of the CCC, not really. It does not carry the same approbation, afaik.

I like this quote, stripped from Aquinas Nature and Grace, which is, in turn, quoting Augustine: :whacky:

“it is certain that eternal life is the reward for good works, but works so rewarded are the result of God’s grace” (De Grat. et Lib. Arb. 8)

Alternatively, I suspect this is in question 109 article 6 in Summa.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Catilieth:

And the Bible clearly says that who ever does not eat of Christ’s body and drink of Christ’s blood shall not have life within them (eternal life). Not an easy thing to think about when one thinks of dear friends who do not believe, but so it is.

As Aragorn told Eomer when Eomer asked,“How shall a man judge what to do in such times?”
“As he ever has judged,” said Aragorn, “good and ill have not changed since yesteryear, nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.”

So, we redouble our efforts in prayer and in deeds to bring our friends back into the fold, so that they may live in the light of the Truth.

As far as your reference to the True Presence, either it is true or false. It doesn’t matter how sincerely I believe the train is headed for Philadelphia, it either is or it isn’t . My sincerity and conviction does not determine truth. Many people are sincerely wrong. And if the Bible teaches that one must eat of His body and Drink of his Blood, and the Church also unfailingly teaches it, they it must be so. Perhaps invincible ignorance is not an available excuse for most, but I would venture to say that the example given by many if not most Catholics, as we fail to live up to our faith, scandalizes others and we are in part guilty for their unbelief. As Ghandi said, if Christians truly lived their faith, there would be no Hindus in India.

Hello Catilieth and Matt,

So can we say that believing in and participating in the Real Presence of the Eucharist for salvation must be in the Lutheran Catholic Joint Statement on Justification or the Document is in error?

I remember that someone in the Vatican released the statement, “No Salvation Outside the Church” soon after the Joint document was signed. There were some very upset Protestants over the statement. The Protestants had spent years of working together with the Catholics on every little detail of the document without any mention of this being a criteria for salvation. I think they were justified in thier complaint.

Should the auto-anathemas enforcing most Church encyclicals, dogmas and cannons, which must be obeyed by both Catholics and Protestants, in order to not be rejected from the bosom of the Catholic Church and be damned, been included in the Joint Statement?

If the Joint Statement was just to state that we must go through the blood of Jesus to go to heaven, one only had to step into a Catholic Church and see Christ on the cross to understand this. Luther was a Catholic. He knew this.

If “faith alone” now over rides all auto-anathemas, the need to recieve the Eucharist, the need to be within the bosom of the Catholic Church, the need to obey Jesus call to obey the commandments and feed the poor, in order to go to heaven, then I think all of us need to take a close look at this new Catholic dogma Church teaching being ushered into our Church through Lutherans.

Possibly the Catholics and Lutherans just need to add a bold warning in large print to the front of the Joint Catholic Lutheran Statement on Justification. Do Not Use This Statement To Answer The Question, "What Must I Do To Share In Everlasting Life?. This way no one will be decieved by the Joint Statment.

vatican.va/roman_curia/p…aration_en.html

 

[Steven_Merten]

Pug:

I would like to add a clarification for the general audience in case there is a confusion. The glossary is not part of the CCC, not really. It does not carry the same approbation, afaik.

I like this quote, stripped from Aquinas Nature and Grace, which is, in turn, quoting Augustine: :whacky:

“it is certain that eternal life is the reward for good works, but works so rewarded are the result of God’s grace” (De Grat. et Lib. Arb. 8)

Alternatively, I suspect this is in question 109 article 6 in Summa.

Hello Pug,

Many times the Protestants refer to Old Testament people being under the law but now we New Testament people are under grace. Jesus tells us that Abraham is in heaven. Isaiah tells us that the sins of all the Israelites and others are placed upon the “arm of the Lord” (Jesus). Adulterous, murderer, then repentant, King David proclaims salvation through the “Right Hand” of God (Jesus). Do you know of and where Augustine and Aquinas addressed what the Protestants see as a difference between Old Testament people and New Testament people in regard to grace and the law?

Is Abraham’s salvation (through Jesus) a fulfillment of God’s covenant of the Law?

NAB LUK 13:28 And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see **Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of **God and you yourselves cast out.

**NAB ISA 53:4 **(Isaiah to the Israelites.)

Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him. He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.

Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted. But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed. We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.

NAB PSA 118:15

The joyful shout of victory in the tents of the just: “The right hand of the LORD has struck with power: The right hand of the LORD is exalted; the right hand of the LORD has struck with power.” I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. Though the LORD has indeed chastised me, yet he has not delivered me to death.

Open to me the gates of justice; I will enter them and give thanks to the LORD. This gate is the LORD’s; the just shall enter it. I will give thanks to you, for you have answered me and have been my savior. The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. By the LORD has this been done; it is wonderful in our eyes. This is the day the LORD has made; let us be glad and rejoice in it. O LORD, grant salvation! O LORD, grant prosperity!

 

[sara888]

**Fransica said:We all know that we are all sinners, so how do we go to heaven?

Sara says:
"Deny self, and follow me ", said Jesus

Become Holy, again I reiterate, that is why Catholics have purgatory as we all are sinners and unless we become Holy then we do not enter into the Kingdom of God. Or we could do some of our Purgatory here on earth and thus we could be granted a pardon for Heaven. However most of us do deserve Purgatory since we do not love one another as ourselves. Humility and Divine Love is what the Lord wants from all of us Faithful Christians. **

Sara

 

[Matt16_18]

Pug:

I would like to add a clarification for the general audience in case there is a confusion. The glossary is not part of the CCC, not really.

The glossary was added to the second revision of the CCC. If the glossary that is in the CCC is not a part of the CCC, what is it a part of?

Let us put that question aside for a moment.

Scripture has the highest authority of all Catholic writings. Note that the snippet from the glossary that I quoted is itself making a reference to scripture, namely Romans 6:23. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Eternal life in Christ Jesus is a FREE GIFT.

Paul says sin is a WAGE. A wage is the compensation justly given for the work that the worker does. In other words, Paul is saying that we earn our eternal damnation by our sin. Paul contrasts the wages of sin with the free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus. A gift is not something that is earned, because if is something that is earned, it would be a wage that is justly due the worker.

No one earns a right to heaven because of his works, not even his good works, not even his good works aided by grace. This truth is a fundamental part of Paul’s theology of justification. In no way is it possible to put God into a position where divine justice would require God to give man eternal life because of any good work that a man may do.

Adam and Eve were created in a state of sanctifying grace, and they were supposed to work in the garden as sin free human beings. If the Fall had never occurred, their good works in the terrestrial Paradise work would never have obligated God to give them the gift of the beatific vision. It is true that God’s plan was to give Adam and Eve the gift of full divinization, but that is because God is free to give the gifts he desires, not because Adam and Eve had a right to the gift.

How can we, sinners in a fallen world, ever claim that our works would obligate God to give us the gift of the beatific vision? Even if our works are holy works because we have given sanctifying grace, so what? If the Fall had never occurred, we also would have been doing works in a state of sanctifying grace in the terrestrial Paradise, and we would not have earned a right to heaven because of our works done in a state of sanctifying grace.

 

[Catilieth]

First of all, the joint declaration does not say or imply that Catholics and Lutherans have the same faith. It is an attempt to clarify one issue…that of justification. It says that both Catholics and Lutherans believe that we are saved by Grace, which is freely given by God as gift and not earned. Nothing more. That does not change anything that Catholics have ever believed. Grace is freely given and is the underlying cause and first principle of our salvation. But that does not mean that we will all go to heaven just because God sends all of us Grace…we have to **do ** something…we have to cooperate with that Grace. The first thing we must do is to have faith…our first and most necessary reponse to Grace. Then we must *perform the works of grace. * Read James, read the Gospels, read the posts above…

Paul’s central message when saying that works of law were not required, was not “works” as in feeding the poor, loving neighbor, partaking in the Eucharist, obeying the commandments etc. What he talked of was " works of law", which are works of Torah. There is a world of difference. For example, in Romans2:6, Paul says that God will judge each person according to his works. And in the next verse he says that God will reward those who perservere in doing good works.Hardly one who says that faith is all we need.
The admonitions against “works of law” (Torah) are within the context of requiring Gentile to be circumcised, which is/was an initiation into Judaisma and and “the law” (Torah). Becoming a Jew would not give salvation and was not a necessary prerequisite.

 

[Pug]

Matt16_18:

Scripture has the highest authority of all Catholic writings. Note that the snippet from the glossary that I quoted is itself making a reference to scripture, namely Romans 6:23. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Eternal life in Christ Jesus is a FREE GIFT.

This quote does need to be addressed. However, I don’t feel up to the task, not having read the first half of Romans through in over a year, so I will be evasive, and hopefully another poster will do it.

I agree with the majority of your post. The thing that bothers me is that I believe it is proper to associate the work of God with man in some sense, on account of God having done this associating himself.

I would like to give a canon of Trent that always seems to linger in my thinking somewhere… I am not intending to say anything about “anathema sit”:

Sixth Session Canon 32 If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified are in such a way the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works, which are done by him throught the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (whose living member he is), does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase in glory: let him be anathema.

However, men have no strict merit before God. Grace preceeds and upholds every one of our merits. We never merit as Christ can merit. Heaven is too supernatural for us to work so as to obligate God to share it with us, in any strict sense, like a wage in pure justice due. What do any of us have that we did not also receive?

In no way is it possible to put God into a position where divine justice would require God to give man eternal life because of any good work that a man may do.

I agree, man cannot so bind God. What God may bind himself to, that is some other question.

I agree, Adam and Eve, on strict justice, did not need to go to heaven.

 

[Pug]

Steven Merten:

Do you know of and where Augustine and Aquinas addressed what the Protestants see as a difference between Old Testament people and New Testament people in regard to grace and the law?

Steven,

Offhand, I do not know the answer to your question. I have one place to look, though, so I’ll take a gander and see if I can dig up anything. I’ll post back if I find something.

 

[Matt16_18]

Pug:

…men have no strict merit before God. Grace preceeds and upholds every one of our merits. We never merit as Christ can merit. Heaven is too supernatural for us to work so as to obligate God to share it with us, in any strict sense, like a wage in pure justice due. What do any of us have that we did not also receive?

My point exactly. Thank you.

I agree, man cannot so bind God.

Understanding this is the key to understanding Paul’s letter to the Romans.

Many Protestants think that Paul teaches in his letter to the Romans that justification is legal process where God and man are bound in a contractual manner (forensic justification). Forensic justification teaches a man’s work of faith-alone obligates God to give him entrance into heaven. The legal contract between God and man makes entrance into Heaven a wage that is due the man because of the man’s one time work of faith-alone.

In truth, it is not the Catholic Church that teaches works salvation; it is the faith-alone antinomian Protestants.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Pug:

Steven,

Offhand, I do not know the answer to your question. I have one place to look, though, so I’ll take a gander and see if I can dig up anything. I’ll post back if I find something.

Hello Pug,

Thank you greatly.

Both Old Testament and New tell us that salvation comes through God’s Right Hand Jesus. Both Old Testament and New Testament tell us we choose eternal life through obedience to God’s commandments. Both Old Testament and New Testament tell us that obedience to God is love for God and love for God is what God desires out of man.

Yet I always hear the Protestants insist that Old Testament people were under the law and New Testament people are under grace. What is up with that?

Thanks for the help.

NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.
"Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live

**NAB MAT **19:16
“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.

Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

NAB JOH 15:10

"You will live in my love if you keep my commandments, even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and **live **in his love."

 

[sara888]

****It seems we all are agreeing on the same issues or teachings however the problem seems to be the the definition of Faith.

Faith is Love and obidence to God.

What does that Mean.?

Of course we are being judged by our Faith and conduct or obedience to God.

We are being judged by our beliefs and our actions with this belief or Faith.

How hard is that to comprehend.?

If one has faith he follows Christ. One who hears Christ out of Faith is required to listen We cant just hear his word we also must follow his word.****

So we are saved by Grace but we are judged by our actions to this great Faith in Christ.

For all our sakes Thank God for Purgatory!

Sara

 

[Steven_Merten]

It seems we all are agreeing on the same issues or teachings however the problem seems to be the the definition of Faith.

Faith is Love and obidence to God.

What does that Mean.?

Of course we are being judged by our Faith and conduct or obedience to God.

We are being judged by our beliefs and our actions with this belief or Faith.

How hard is that to comprehend.?

If one has faith he follows Christ. One who hears Christ out of Faith is required to listen We cant just hear his word we also must follow his word.

So we are saved by Grace but we are judged by our actions to this great Faith in Christ.

For all our sakes Thank God for Purgatory!

Sara

Well said Sara.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello all,

This thread is filled with a great deal of scriptural teachings on who Jesus teaches will enter into eternal life through Him. I wanted to bring it forward for study when discussing things on the salvation thread.