Will Orthodox and Catholics Reconcile?

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Selling indulgences was wrong (just like simony is), but not the teaching of indulgences (which we still retained).
I agree. However the church did it. This to me is a matter of faith and morals. It isn’t something like the modern day pedophile priests where it is individuals acting counter to the teachings of the church, it was the church itself supporting itself with these things.
 
The filioque was meant to highlight the fact that Jesus was divine as well, i.e., not a creature of God as the Arians were proposing (but of the same essence/substance), but due to a language barrier things got confusing. I believe it was St. Maximus the Confessor that acknowledged this and set the record straight concerning the filioque.
Aye, the filioque does not create a false creed. The Holy Spirit does come from Jesus. But the filioque changes the meaning of that part of the creed. The Holy Spirit “proceeds” from Jesus in a way different from how it “proceeds” from the Father alone. It’s not right to change the meaning of the creed except through an ecumenical council.
 
I agree. However the church did it. This to me is a matter of faith and morals. It isn’t something like the modern day pedophile priests where it is individuals acting counter to the teachings of the church, it was the church itself supporting itself with these things.
No, the whole Church didn’t do it (this was relegated to a specific region if I’m not mistaken).
 
Yes.

Notice the use of past tense when talking about the truth?
"Christ built his Church upon Peter is not past tense (and I am yet to be convinced that the Church in Rome officially taught heresy).
 
No, the whole Church didn’t do it (this was relegated to a specific region if I’m not mistaken).
Rome did it. Whether it only happened in a single region (and if it did it is not surprising that Rome lost that region) Rome authorized priests to go out selling them, taking half the funds for themselves, and using those funds to build St. Peters.
 
Rome did it. Whether it only happened in a single region (and if it did it is not surprising that Rome lost that region) Rome authorized priests to go out selling them, taking half the funds for themselves, and using those funds to build St. Peters.
No, this is wrong, i.e., Rome did not authorize Priests to sell indulgences but there were abuses:

Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.

One never could “buy” indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “*t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded.”

catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp*
 
I’m confused. An indulgence was granted upon paying alms, right? But you’re saying that the payment of that money was not the purchase of an indulgence, right? But upon paying the money one got an indulgence, right? But yet, paying the money was not the purchase of an indulgence? Except that, upon paying the money one got an indulgence, right?

There’s a nasty circle here.
 
Which heretics distorted them? You mean the Protestants? Then why weren’t they made doctrine at Trent, rather than at Vatican?
As you should know … Martin Luther accepted the Church’s teachings on Mary :tsktsk:
 
I agree with that. In the early 500’s it was quite correct to say the Apostolic See had kept the Catholic faith without stain.

Notice the use of the past tense. He isn’t making any statement for the future.
Now you & your Orthodox forebears] love to parse words … to enable/sustain your errant separtion 😦
 
I’m confused. An indulgence was granted upon paying alms, right? But you’re saying that the payment of that money was not the purchase of an indulgence, right? But upon paying the money one got an indulgence, right? But yet, paying the money was not the purchase of an indulgence? Except that, upon paying the money one got an indulgence, right?

There’s a nasty circle here.
It is not a ‘sale’, it is a ‘donation’. 😉

But without the ‘donation’, there is no indulgence.

Quid Pro Quo.

This arrangement was authorized by Rome. In fact the Pope wanted it because a proportion of the proceeds collected in northern Europe were to go toward covering the deficits of the diocese of Rome, which were considerable. Tetzel’s expenses had to be covered and the remaining proportion went to the local diocesan/archdiocesan bishop. It is not clear to me whether the local parish was included in the cut but I have never heard of it. Tetzel was able to cross diocesan borders because he had his mission authorized by the Pope and the local bishops.
 
It is not a ‘sale’, it is a ‘donation’. 😉

But without the ‘donation’, there is no indulgence.

Quid Pro Quo.

This arrangement was authorized by Rome. In fact the Pope wanted it because a proportion of the proceeds collected in northern Europe were to go toward covering the deficits of the diocese of Rome, which were considerable. Tetzel’s expenses had to be covered and the remaining proportion went to the local diocesan/archdiocesan bishop. It is not clear to me whether the local parish was included in the cut but I have never heard of it. Tetzel was able to cross diocesan borders because he had his mission authorized by the Pope and the local bishops.
Is there a minimum amount that must be donated?
 
UniversalistGuy;6963172:
But isn’t there conflicts in the Catholic churches too? Tell me the overarching principle that unites the Catholics?
I read the post that answered your question with the comment that Christ unites. Well, all Christians worship Jesus Christ, but there are thousands of Protestant denominations that conflict and compete with the Catholic Church and with one another. The Protestant Bible has 66 books; the Catholic Bible (the original Bible) has 73.

Less competitive but still separate are the Orthodox Churches, divided along national and ethnic lines. And – the Greeks have one Bible, the Russians another, and the Ethiopian Orthodox still another. The Oriental Orthodox are not admitted to Communion in an Eastern Orthodox Church (and, I think, vice versa). Their beliefs are similar, but different. The OO’s only accept the first three Ecumenical Councils; the EO’s accept seven (of 21). I don’t think the Russian Orthodox invite other Orthodox to their Communion, but I’m not sure how that works among the several Eastern Orthodox groups. And so it goes. The Body of Christ is severely wounded.

The center of unity among all 22 Rites of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is St. Peter – and his successors – of whom there have been 265, including Benedict XVI.

The Orthodox added to the Catholic Bible, the Protestants subtracted from it. If you’re interested in this subject, go to this Methodist website: Which Bible, Whose Canon?
gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

Pray for the unity of Christendom.

Peace, Jim Dandy
Why are you telling me about how wrong you think non-Catholics are? And why are you sending me to a Methodist website to check out what they think about the Bible? I asked you to tell me the overarching principle that unites the Catholics after you stated that you’d studied Orthodoxy and found out there is no overarching principle that unites them.
I found out in my study of Orthodoxy (before I became a Catholic) that each Church stands alone, and there is no overarching principle that unites them. So there is no Orthodox Church, but there are several Oriental Orthodox Churches and several Eastern Orthodox Churches. And there is conflict among them.
An Orthodox poster suggested before that you need a basic primer on Orthodoxy so perhaps you didn’t study it properly before you became a Catholic. I guess that’s what happened. You say you’re an industrial strength Catholic. So can you tell me what the overarching principle is that unites Catholics or not? Maybe there isn’t one? If there is no overarching principle that unites the Catholics how can you attack the Orthodox for not having what you ain’t got yourself? 🤷
 
After Alexius was unable to pay the crusaders they attacked city. Alexius fled once the crusaders breeched the outer wall and took part of the city. The remaining garrison (which greatly outnumbered the crusaders) along with most of the population decided to surrender rather than fight. They fully knew the consequences which would include adopting the Latin rite and recognising a Latin as king. What they didn’t expect was the savagery that ensued.
OK–I thought you were talking about the initial decision to accept Alexius.
Thomas F. Madden’s ‘The New Concise History Of The Crusades’ is my source. Very good book.
Yes, I need to read it, and other contemporary Crusade scholarship. (Madden’s review of Kingdom of Heaven is great!) I read a large part of Runciman in my youth–and yes, I recognize that Runciman is outdated and arguably biased against the Crusaders–but a very good read.

Edwin
 
I agree that there’s a controversy, in the sense that this question comes up regularly, and people dispute it all the time. I wonder, though, are those disputing it sufficiently aware of the passage below, from John’s Gospel, Chapter 1. In the quoted passage, a bunch of people confess that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, starting with John the Baptist and ending with the Apostle Nathanael.
I know you’re going to be upset by this, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to use John to interpret Matthew in this way. In Matthew, Peter is the first person to confess Jesus, and the promise follows immediately on that.

The fact that John does something different is interesting. But of course, in John Peter is not singled out as a leader until after the Resurrection.
Reading the quoted text, it seems that Jesus didn’t even wait for Simon to open his mouth and confess his belief in Jesus being the Messiah, he practically greeted Simon with this prophecy, before Simon could say anything at all! 😛
John has a tendency to describe events together with the theological ramifications that they had acquired in later reflection. All the Gospel writers do this–arguably the “upon this Rock” passage in Matthew is an editorial addition reflecting early Christian theology–but John probably does it the most.

I know that this is a more “liberal” view of Scripture than many folks are comfortable with. But I think the evidence points to it, and truth matters more than not offending people.

Edwin
 
An Orthodox poster suggested before that you need a basic primer on Orthodoxy so perhaps you didn’t study it properly before you became a Catholic. I guess that’s what happened. You say you’re an industrial strength Catholic. So can you tell me what the overarching principle is that unites Catholics or not? Maybe there isn’t one? If there is no overarching principle that unites the Catholics how can you attack the Orthodox for not having what you ain’t got yourself? 🤷
The overarching principle (ecclesiologically) that unites all Catholics is the papacy, i.e., it is he, as head of the (visible) Church, with whom we are (must be) in communion with. Theologically-speaking, all Catholics should adhere to the beliefs set out in the catechism of the Catholic Church, so a common faith unites us, i.e., these are the teachings of the Church if you’re interested in learning about the faith (you can buy a copy for less than 10$).

p.s. Have you been doing your own research concerning Catholicism? If so, what have you learned?
 
This arrangement was authorized by Rome. In fact the Pope wanted it because a proportion of the proceeds collected in northern Europe were to go toward covering the deficits of the diocese of Rome, which were considerable. Tetzel’s expenses had to be covered and the remaining proportion went to the local diocesan/archdiocesan bishop. It is not clear to me whether the local parish was included in the cut but I have never heard of it. Tetzel was able to cross diocesan borders because he had his mission authorized by the Pope and the local bishops.
I would like a source please, moreover, giving alms means that any donation no matter how small can be given for an indulgence, which is the remission of the temporal punishment due to (forgiven) sin.
It may seem strange that the doctrine of indulgences should have proved such a stumbling-block, and excited so much prejudice and opposition. But the explanation of this may be found in the abuses which unhappily have been associated with what is in itself a salutary practice. In this respect of course indulgences are not exceptional: no institution, however holy, has entirely escaped abuse through the malice or unworthiness of man. Even the Eucharist, as St. Paul declares, means an eating and drinking of judgment to the recipient who discerns not the body of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). And, as God’s forbearance is constantly abused by those who relapse into sin, it is not surprising that the offer of pardon in the form of an indulgence should have led to evil practices. These again have been in a special way the object of attack because, doubtless, of their connection with Luther’s revolt (see LUTHER). On the other hand, it should not be forgotten that the Church, while holding fast to the principle and intrinsic value of indulgences, has repeatedly condemned their misuse: in fact, it is often from the severity of her condemnation that we learn how grave the abuses were.
Even in the age of the martyrs, as stated above there were practices which St. Cyprian was obliged to reprehend, yet he did not forbid the martyrs to give the libelli. In later times abuses were met by repressive measures on the part of the Church. Thus the Council of Clovesho in England (747) condemns those who imagine that they might atone for their crimes by substituting, in place of their own, the austerities of mercenary penitents. Against the excessive indulgences granted by some prelates, the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) decreed that at the dedication of a church the indulgence should not be for more than year, and, for the anniversary of the dedication or any other case, it should not exceed forty days, this being the limit observed by the pope himself on such occasions. The same restriction was enacted by the Council of Ravenna in 1317. In answer to the complaint of the Dominicans and Franciscans, that certain prelates had put their own construction on the indulgences granted to these Orders, Clement IV in 1268 forbade any such interpretation, declaring that, when it was needed, it would be given by the Holy See. In 1330 the brothers of the hospital of Haut-Pas falsely asserted that the grants made in their favor were more extensive than what the documents allowed: John XXII had all these brothers in France seized and imprisoned. Boniface IX, writing to the Bishop of Ferrara in 1392, condemns the practice of certain religious who falsely claimed that they were authorized by the pope to forgive all sorts of sins, and exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next. When Henry, Archbishop of Canterbury, attempted in 1420 to give a plenary indulgence in the form of the Roman Jubilee, he was severely reprimanded by Martin V, who characterized his action as “unheard-of presumption and sacrilegious audacity”. In 1450 Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa, Apostolic Legate to Germany, found some preachers asserting that indulgences released from the guilt of sin as well as from the punishment. This error, due to a misunderstanding of the words “a culpa et a poena”, the cardinal condemned at the Council of Magdeburg. Finally, Sixtus IV in 1478, lest the idea of gaining indulgences should prove an incentive to sin, reserved for the judgment of the Holy See a large number of cases in which faculties had formerly been granted to confessors (Extrav. Com., tit. de poen. et remiss.).
to be continued. . .
 
Continued here:
Traffic in indulgences
These measures show plainly that the Church long before the Reformation, not only recognized the existence of abuses, but also used her authority to correct them.
In spite of all this, disorders continued and furnished the pretext for attacks directed against the doctrine itself, no less than against the practice of indulgences. Here, as in so many other matters, the love of money was the chief root of the evil: indulgences were employed by mercenary ecclesiastics as a means of pecuniary gain. Leaving the details concerning this traffic to a subsequent article (see REFORMATION), it may suffice for the present to note that the doctrine itself has no natural or necessary connection with pecuniary profit, as is evident from the fact that the abundant indulgences of the present day are free from this evil association: the only conditions required are the saying of certain prayers or the performance of some good work or some practice of piety. Again, it is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, alms giving would naturally hold a conspicuous place, while men would be induced by the same means to contribute to some pious cause such as the building of churches, the endowment of hospitals, or the organization of a crusade. It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded. Looked at in this light, it might well seem a suitable condition for gaining the spiritual benefit of an indulgence. Yet, however innocent in itself, this practice was fraught with grave danger, and soon became a fruitful source of evil. On the one hand there was the danger that the payment might be regarded as the price of the indulgence, and that those who sought to gain it might lose sight of the more important conditions. On the other hand, those who granted indulgences might be tempted to make them a means of raising money: and, even where the rulers of the Church were free from blame in this matter, there was room for corruption in their officials and agents, or among the popular preachers of indulgences. This class has happily disappeared, but the type has been preserved in Chaucer’s “Pardoner”, with his bogus relics and indulgences.
While it cannot be denied that these abuses were widespread, it should also be noted that, even when corruption was at its worst, these spiritual grants were being properly used by sincere Christians, who sought them in the right spirit, and by priests and preachers, who took care to insist on the need of true repentance. It is therefore not difficult to understand why the Church, instead of abolishing the practice of indulgences, aimed rather at strengthening it by eliminating the evil elements. The Council of Trent in its decree “On Indulgences” (Sess. XXV) declares: “In granting indulgences the Council desires that moderation be observed in accordance with the ancient approved custom of the Church, lest through excessive ease ecclesiastical discipline be weakened; and further, seeking to correct the abuses that have crept in . . . it decrees that all criminal gain therewith connected shall be entirely done away with as a source of grievous abuse among the Christian people; and as to other disorders arising from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or any cause whatsoever–since these, on account of the widespread corruption, cannot be removed by special prohibitions—the Council lays upon each bishop the duty of finding out such abuses as exist in his own diocese, of bringing them before the next provincial synod, and of reporting them, with the assent of the other bishops, to the Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence measures will be taken for the welfare of the Church at large, so that the benefit of indulgences may be bestowed on all the faithful by means at once pious, holy, and free from corruption.” After deploring the fact that, in spite of the remedies prescribed by earlier councils, the traders (quaestores) in indulgences continued their nefarious practice to the great scandal of the faithful, the council ordained that the name and method of these quaestores should be entirely abolished, and that indulgences and other spiritual favors of which the faithful ought not to be deprived should be published by the bishops and bestowed gratuitously, so that all might at length understand that these heavenly treasures were dispensed for the sake of piety and not of lucre (Sess. XXI, c. ix). In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.
 
This arrangement was authorized by Rome. In fact the Pope wanted it because a proportion of the proceeds collected in northern Europe were to go toward covering the deficits of the diocese of Rome, which were considerable. Tetzel’s expenses had to be covered and the remaining proportion went to the local diocesan/archdiocesan bishop. It is not clear to me whether the local parish was included in the cut but I have never heard of it. Tetzel was able to cross diocesan borders because he had his mission authorized by the Pope and the local bishops.
Which part of my post would you like a source for?
 
Which part of my post would you like a source for?
The whole part concerning indulgences, i.e., I do not believe that the Church allowed the selling of indulgences (as it was condemned in the past), although I am pretty sure some ecclesiastics did.
 
Why are you telling me about how wrong you think non-Catholics are? And why are you sending me to a Methodist website to check out what they think about the Bible? I asked you to tell me the overarching principle that unites the Catholics after you stated that you’d studied Orthodoxy and found out there is no overarching principle that unites them.
He did tell you the overarching principle that unites Catholics, it was in essence the same thing I said, i.e., the papacy:
The center of unity among all 22 Rites of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is St. Peter – and his successors – of whom there have been 265, including Benedict XVI.
 
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