Will Pope Francis Invite Lutherans into an Ordinariate?

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Peter_J said:
That goes back to my point:
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However, working against your point is the other purpose of the ordinate: to bring about unity. If we’re to have true unity then there must be the best, and most charitable pathway into Holy Mother Church, and I think this is not too small a point with regards to what was done. I don’t think it was merely done in response to doctrinal problems among the Anglicans, though that probably didn’t hurt.

Saying Lutherans can switch association and remain happily separated with a some what more orthodox group doesn’t serve this end. So I think when one takes in account this end, plus the issues with different conferences we can arrive at the same conclusion.
 
If such a thing ever came about, wonder if there would be a Lutheran Use much like the Anglican Use and how would it differ from the Latin or Roman Rite?
 
aidanbradypop said:
If such a thing ever came about, wonder if there would be a Lutheran Use much like the Anglican Use and how would it differ from the Latin or Roman Rite?
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There probably will, though I’m interested to know if they will really label it ‘Lutheran Use’. 🙂
 
crazzeto said:
However, working against your point is the other purpose of the ordinate: to bring about unity. If we’re to have true unity then there must be the best, and most charitable pathway into Holy Mother Church, and I think this is not too small a point with regards to what was done. I don’t think it was merely done in response to doctrinal problems among the Anglicans, though that probably didn’t hurt.

Saying Lutherans can switch association and remain happily separated with a some what more orthodox group doesn’t serve this end. So I think when one takes in account this end, plus the issues with different conferences we can arrive at the same conclusion.
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I’m happy to say that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church are somewhat more ecumenical-minded:
Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other
-Balamand Statement
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Granted, that’s not directly applicable to either Anglicans or Lutherans, it’s only talking about the Eastern Orthodox. However, Cardinal Walter Kasper commented on the Ordinariate, lest anyone get the wrong idea about it, “We are not fishing in the Anglican pond.”
 
Peter_J said:
Many do … well, often in a love-to-hate-it way. 😉
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Ah, oops. I thought he meant that the Ordinariates were designed to haul them in by the net instead of plucking individuals. I thought that was a good description of how the Ordinariate was designed for corporate reunion of whole parishes and communities. 😃

Clearly Cardinal Kasper thought differently. :rolleyes:
 
Filii_Dei said:
Ah, oops. I thought he meant that the Ordinariates were designed to haul them in by the net instead of plucking individuals. I thought that was a good description of how the Ordinariate was designed for corporate reunion of whole parishes and communities. 😃

Clearly Cardinal Kasper thought differently. :rolleyes:
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Well, I like your statement too, with the line-vs-net analogy.

Nevertheless, I would say that we’re not “fishing in the Anglican pond” inasmuch as we aren’t *trying *to get Anglicans to switch sides, we’re working with Anglicans who became interested on their own.
 
Peter_J said:
Well, I like your statement too, with the line-vs-net analogy.

Nevertheless, I would say that we’re not “fishing in the Anglican pond” inasmuch as we aren’t *trying *to get Anglicans to switch sides, we’re working with Anglicans who became interested on their own.
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Isn’t that serving the purpose of unity? I honestly don’t see how you can discount the purpose of unity behind the ordinate. Promoting unity doesn’t mean busting down the doors so to speak. I have to disagree with everything you’ve written so far about this not serving the purpose of unity.

By allowing a easy transition into the Catholic Church, to those Christians whom (as you say) are already interested but perhaps need ‘just a little more’ from Rome (i.e. the ability to retain the good of their Liturgy) then yes, this is serving the purpose of unity. It’s a far cry from ramming down the doors, but it does promote the reunification of the Church.
 
From the Anglicanorum Coetibus
In recent times the Holy Spirit has moved groups of Anglicans to petition repeatedly and insistently to be received into full Catholic communion individually as well as corporately. The Apostolic See has responded favourably to such petitions. Indeed, the successor of Peter, mandated by the Lord Jesus to guarantee the unity of the episcopate and to preside over and safeguard the universal communion of all the Churches,[1] could not fail to make available the means necessary to bring this holy desire to realization.
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Unity is the central theme of the constitution, and without the purpose of unity I would say that the constitution makes zero sense. If not for this purpose, why not simply let Anglicans peruse the ordinary means of conversion as Rome has for centuries?

I submit that Anglicanorum Coetibus is about unity, and that if a Lutheran Constitution is issued it will also be about unity. What you cite as the reason, the heresy within the communion is in my opinion merely the internal catylist that lead many Anglicans who otherwise would have stayed in their church to seek this action from Rome. Rome granted it however, to promote Christian unity in this unique way.

This doesn’t mean we’re sending out people to evangalize or are ‘fishing in the Anglican pond’. It means the Church recognizes she is bound to promote unity (even corporal unity) in the most effective and Christ like manner. This means consideration of a special ordinate which allows anglicans who do want to enter the See of Peter do so more easily without having to give up the favored trappings of being Anglicans.
 
crazzeto said:
From the Anglicanorum Coetibus
In recent times the Holy Spirit has moved groups of Anglicans to petition repeatedly and insistently to be received into full Catholic communion individually as well as corporately. The Apostolic See has responded favourably to such petitions. Indeed, the successor of Peter, mandated by the Lord Jesus to guarantee the unity of the episcopate and to preside over and safeguard the universal communion of all the Churches,[1] could not fail to make available the means necessary to bring this holy desire to realization.
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Good quote. (I’m not sure if you were expecting me to disagree with it. If so, I hope you aren’t too disappointed. :))
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Peter_J said:
Good quote. (I’m not sure if you were expecting me to disagree with it. If so, I hope you aren’t too disappointed. :))
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I wasn’t sure if you would or not, but I an curious why you disagree that the Catholic Church is seeking unity with this constitution (post #183). They very clearly are seeking Christian unity.
 
Peter_J said:
🙂

In that case, I guess you misread me worse than I thought. 😊
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Perhaps you also misread me? Because I still stand by what I said, I also stand by the idea that the Catholic Church isn’t in the streets picking on each Anglican trying to snatch them out of their church.

Edit
Actually, more clearly that should read that the Catholic Church hierarchy isn’t interested in this. But on the other hand, the Church is of course supremely interested in bringing about true unity. Not just a vage spiritual unity.
 
Peter_J said:
Possibly, some of your posts did seem a trifle odd to me. No matter, though, I don’t really want to keep beating this horse.

Happy Ascension Thursday!
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I do apologize for my failures to communicate effectively, I really should be spending more time on more fully developing what I type.

I would wish you a happy Ascension Thursday, but happy happy Friday of the 6th week of Eastertide will have to suffice =)
 
Filii_Dei said:
Ah, oops. I thought he meant that the Ordinariates were designed to haul them in by the net instead of plucking individuals. I thought that was a good description of how the Ordinariate was designed for corporate reunion of whole parishes and communities. 😃

Clearly Cardinal Kasper thought differently. :rolleyes:
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In the 1960s there was discussion of drawing denominations together, so any kind of “plucking” individuals or groups was considered inappropriate. The idea was that Catholics and mainstream Protestants already shared the essence of the faith, so we could just be “in communion” with each other, no need for a common magisterium. In many dioceses, there was no reaching out to Protestants interested in converting. Since then some mainstream denominations have abandoned traditional theological and moral teaching. The 1960s ecumenism models have been superceded by events. The absence of a magisterium is now considered deadly. Some denominations will never be in communion with Catholicism, they are theologically incompatible even with their own predecessors of 50 years ago. The AO is simply a recognition of the new reality. We don’t “pluck” Christians who feel spiritually complete where they are, but we want to reach out proactively to the members of the TEC and - perhaps - the ELCA who feel more in common with the theology of Catholicism than the new theology of their former denominations. A (potential) Lutheran ordinariate makes possible not only individuals coming over, but communities, remaining as communities, retaining much of their spiritual heritage. Doctrinal orthodoxy is part of both Anglican and Lutheran spiritual heritage. Their Anglican heritage enriches Catholicism too.
 
commenter said:
In the 1960s there was discussion of drawing denominations together, so any kind of “plucking” individuals or groups was considered inappropriate. The idea was that Catholics and mainstream Protestants already shared the essence of the faith, so we could just be “in communion” with each other, no need for a common magisterium.
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In other words, the wrapper may have been “ecumenism”, but the underlying reality was Catholics-becoming-protestantized.
 
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