Will Pope Francis Invite Lutherans into an Ordinariate?

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EvangelCatholic

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The Vatican has been in discussion for some time of acknowledging a Lutheran expression in the Roman Catholic church. Came across this article from last year:

zenit.org/en/articles/progressives-and-traditionalists-suffer-from-the-same-ailment

"Could there be an Ordinariate for former Lutherans in a way similar to those for former Anglicans?

It is hard for me to see how. Perhaps it could be possible.

From CWN:

The president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity said in an interview that the Vatican would entertain a hypothetical proposal by Lutherans to establish ecclesial structures modeled on the ordinariates developed for Anglican communities that wish to enter into full communion with the Holy See.

“Anglicanorum coetibus was not an initiative of Rome, but came from the Anglican church,” said Cardinal Kurt Koch, referring to the 2009 papal document that established the ordinariates. “The Holy Father then sought a solution and, in my opinion, found a very broad solution, in which the Anglicans’ ecclesial and liturgical traditions were taken into ample consideration. If similar desires are expressed by the Lutherans, then we will have to reflect on them. However, the initiative is up to the Lutherans.”

Cardinal Koch also said that both “‘progressives and traditionalists suffer from the same ailment”: a refusal to interpret the Second Vatican Council with a hermeneutic of “renewal in continuity.”

“Both see the Council equally as a break, even if in a very different way,” he said. “The Holy Father has questioned this understanding of the conciliar hermeneutics of the break and proposed the hermeneutics of reform, which unites continuity and renewal.”

Benedict XVI is the Pope of Christian Unity".
 
EvangelCatholic said:
The Vatican has been in discussion for some time of acknowledging a Lutheran expression in the Roman Catholic church. Came across this article from last year:

zenit.org/en/articles/progressives-and-traditionalists-suffer-from-the-same-ailment

"Could there be an Ordinariate for former Lutherans in a way similar to those for former Anglicans?

It is hard for me to see how. Perhaps it could be possible.

From CWN:

The president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity said in an interview that the Vatican would entertain a hypothetical proposal by Lutherans to establish ecclesial structures modeled on the ordinariates developed for Anglican communities that wish to enter into full communion with the Holy See.

“Anglicanorum coetibus was not an initiative of Rome, but came from the Anglican church,” said Cardinal Kurt Koch, referring to the 2009 papal document that established the ordinariates. “The Holy Father then sought a solution and, in my opinion, found a very broad solution, in which the Anglicans’ ecclesial and liturgical traditions were taken into ample consideration. If similar desires are expressed by the Lutherans, then we will have to reflect on them. However, the initiative is up to the Lutherans.”

Cardinal Koch also said that both “‘progressives and traditionalists suffer from the same ailment”: a refusal to interpret the Second Vatican Council with a hermeneutic of “renewal in continuity.”

“Both see the Council equally as a break, even if in a very different way,” he said. “The Holy Father has questioned this understanding of the conciliar hermeneutics of the break and proposed the hermeneutics of reform, which unites continuity and renewal.”

Benedict XVI is the Pope of Christian Unity".
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The problem, in part, is which Lutherans? It cannot be many of the LWF synods, such as the ELCA, because of the ELCA’s compromising of the ministerial priesthood, first by ordaining women, then at the Churchwide assembly in 2011.

And the LCMS and ILC are not yet ready for such a move.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
The problem, in part, is which Lutherans? It cannot be many of the LWF synods, such as the ELCA, because of the ELCA’s compromising of the ministerial priesthood, first by ordaining women, then at the Churchwide assembly in 2011.

And the LCMS and ILC are not yet ready for such a move.

Jon
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I was educated in the Missouri Synod that acknowledged we [Lutheran] are a confessing movement in the Roman Catholic church; remember the “We are One in Baptism” education materials?

The ELCA has close relationship with Rome. The Provoo Communion of European Lutherans and Anglicans embraces the historic episcopacy.
 
=EvangelCatholic;10650114]I was educated in the Missouri Synod that acknowledged we [Lutheran] are a confessing movement in the Roman Catholic church; remember the “We are One in Baptism” education materials?
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Agreed.
The ELCA has close relationship with Rome.
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Agreed again. Would the ELCA be willing to give up women’s ordination, or that of openly practicing gays?
The Provoo Communion of European Lutherans and Anglicans embraces the historic episcopacy.
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As should all Lutherans, according to the confessions.

Jon
 
The Anglican Ordinariate was initiated because some Anglicans requested it. This was not any historic body, such as the Church of England or The Episcopal Church, but rather one body unrecognized by the Anglican Communion that had broken away a few decades earlier. Even that body did not enter the Ordinariate as a whole. Some clergy and laity did, some clergy and laity did not, many others came in from other parts of Anglicanism. I don’t expect a historic body such as ELCA or LCMS to initiate such a request. But aren’t there organizations of Lutherans in Europe or the US that might do so? Perhaps the ELCA has muddied the waters on clergy, but so had the Anglicans, that did not prevent the Ordinariate. The Anglican Ordinariate isn’t about merger with Anglican churches, it’s about individuals and small groups bringing their heritage over. If a Lutheran Ordinariate were to emerge, it might come from those who are more liturgical minded than the LCMS, but disagree with the doctrinal trends of the ELCA.
 
commenter said:
The Anglican Ordinariate was initiated because some Anglicans requested it. This was not any historic body, such as the Church of England or The Episcopal Church, but rather one body unrecognized by the Anglican Communion that had broken away a few decades earlier. Even that body did not enter the Ordinariate as a whole. Some clergy and laity did, some clergy and laity did not, many others came in from other parts of Anglicanism. I don’t expect a historic body such as ELCA or LCMS to initiate such a request. But aren’t there organizations of Lutherans in Europe or the US that might do so? Perhaps the ELCA has muddied the waters on clergy, but so had the Anglicans, that did not prevent the Ordinariate. The Anglican Ordinariate isn’t about merger with Anglican churches, it’s about individuals and small groups bringing their heritage over. If a Lutheran Ordinariate were to emerge, it might come from those who are more liturgical minded than the LCMS, but disagree with the doctrinal trends of the ELCA.
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I wouldn’t say the LCMS is not liturgical-minded. 🤷

You might, overall, be right, however. I think worldwide there probably are some Lutherans in smaller synodical settings, or independent of a synod, who might be in a position to say, let’s see what it would look like. What can we take along - liturgically, musically, etc. Can we make the final statement that the need for division is over, and the Reformation is successfully complete?
In short, I think the questions and answers for Lutherans will be somewhat different than for Anglicans, since we come from different viewpoints with different priorities.

Jon
 
It would probably be the Missouri Synod which are the Lutheran equivalent of the Traditional Anglicans who accepted the offer.
 
Does anyone remember Bishop Gladfelter, as he signed himself, a Lutheran who used to post here a couple of years ago?

GKC
 
It is not an issue of Roman Catholics [like Southern Baptists & Mormons] misunderstanding the human condition of God’s children but rather the application of the Gospel that those who love are God’s children.
 
GKC said:
Does anyone remember Bishop Gladfelter, as he signed himself, a Lutheran who used to post here a couple of years ago?

GKC
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Yes. The ALCC - Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. They had petitioned Rome, but I don’t know the results.

Jon
 
commenter said:
The Anglican Ordinariate was initiated because some Anglicans requested it. This was not any historic body, such as the Church of England or The Episcopal Church, but rather one body unrecognized by the Anglican Communion that had broken away a few decades earlier. Even that body did not enter the Ordinariate as a whole. Some clergy and laity did, some clergy and laity did not, many others came in from other parts of Anglicanism. I don’t expect a historic body such as ELCA or LCMS to initiate such a request. But aren’t there organizations of Lutherans in Europe or the US that might do so? Perhaps the ELCA has muddied the waters on clergy, but so had the Anglicans, that did not prevent the Ordinariate. The Anglican Ordinariate isn’t about merger with Anglican churches, it’s about individuals and small groups bringing their heritage over. If a Lutheran Ordinariate were to emerge, it might come from those who are more liturgical minded than the LCMS, but disagree with the doctrinal trends of the ELCA.
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This is correct, but not complete. Like much of history, it is complicated.

A group of what are termed Continuing Anglicans, not in communion with Canterbury, began, somewhere over 10 years ago, to seek some form of corporate union with Rome. This group, represented in the US first by the Anglican Catholic Church, and later by a split from it, the Anglican Church in America, was instrumental in the formation of a world-wide union of similar Anglicans, known as the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). It was the TAC that was the leader in the effort, over many years, to achieve the desired union. Little progress, though some, was made over the years, until around 2008-2009. At that point, several traditional (small “t”) Church of England bishops, recognizing the probability that the CoE would take the final step of consecrating female bishops, went to Rome with a request that some sort of accommodation be made to permit similar minded Church of England members and parishes to come to Rome. That was the spark that ignited the long smoldering process the TAC had been pressing, and resulted in *Anglicanorum Coetibus *.

It was the Anglican Church in America that, in the end, only partially accepted what was offered. Other Anglican jurisdictions also had members who came over.

It is complicated.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus
 
JonNC said:
Yes. The ALCC - Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. They had petitioned Rome, but I don’t know the results.

Jon
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One result I have heard is that Bishop Gladfelter is now a Roman Catholic layman.

Here’s the link to what was his group.

anglolutherancatholic.org/

I do not know its current status. I think that page is a little out of date.

GKC
 
Yes I recall the efforts of the Evangelical-Catholic Union many years ago. I believe Saint Augustine’s House [Lutheran monastery] promoted reunion with Rome. Most Lutherans, aside from emotional attachment, recognize the supremacy of the Pope and argue for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Yes I recall the efforts of the Evangelical-Catholic Union many years ago. I believe Saint Augustine’s House [Lutheran monastery] promoted reunion with Rome. Most Lutherans, aside from emotional attachment, recognize the supremacy of the Pope and argue for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
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I think it would more correctly be said that most Lutherans recognize the pope’s primacy, not supremacy, as the confessions make clear.

Jon
 
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