Will Pope Francis Invite Lutherans into an Ordinariate?

[Peter_J]

And this is where we part lol. The Church will not change to please society. Society needs to conform to the Church. The Church is one for all Christians. It has always been one but others felt they knew for than the Church and wanted the authority rather than submitting to it. If it happens in our lives as you state, then you will see me converting to Orthodoxy also.

Do you consider Orthodoxy to be the true church?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Do you consider Orthodoxy to be the true church?

The Orthodox Church is part of the Church, but not in communion with Rome. She has all the valid Sacraments. So the Orthodox Church is as true as the Catholic Church in that sense. Not really understanding what you are trying to get at. It makes sense when you apply my post to what EC posted. If the Catholic Church starts to change doctrine simply to please society, then I would sadly seek the sacraments within Orthodoxy. I hope you would do the same as well. Know you and I both know this will never happen so no worries.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Book of Divine Worship is an adaptation of the American Book of Common Prayer (BCP) by the Roman Catholic Church. It is used primarily by former members of the Episcopal Church within Anglican Use parishes. The Book of Divine Worship contains elements of the 1928 and 1979 American editions of the Book of Common Prayer as well as the 1973 Roman Missal, Missale Romanum. It opens with the Calendar of the Church Year used in Anglican Use, followed by the Daily Office lectionary arranged in a two-year cycle. Three readings from Old and New Testaments are provided for each Sunday and weekday in both cycles. The psalms are arranged on a seven-week pattern throughout the year and sung in Anglican Chant. Antiphons – drawn from the psalms, from the opening sentences in the Offices or from scriptural passages – are used with the psalms or canticles.

There is Morning and Evening Prayer, in traditional and modern English, along with a Midday Office and Compline. The structure of these Offices is antiphon and psalmody; Old and New Testament lessons, each followed by a canticle; Apostles Creed; Lord’s Prayer, Preces, and collects. The Litany, in traditional English, echoes the Great Litany, with some additional petitions to the Virgin Mary and the Saints.

The Proper of the Mass includes the appointed Introit, Collect, Gradual, Alleluia or Tract, Offertory, and Communion. The Epistle and Gospel readings for Sunday are to be taken from the Revised Roman Missal. There are optional rubrics before each rite.

The Ordinary of the Mass is very much the same as in the Roman Rite and the 1979 Book of Common Prayer, with the Kyrie eleison, Gloria in excelsis, Credo, Sanctus - Benedictus, and Agnus Dei. The Canon used is the Eucharistic Prayer I from the present Latin Rite Mass.

And this is where we part lol. The Church will not change to please society. Society needs to conform to the Church. The Church is one for all Christians. It has always been one but others felt they knew for than the Church and wanted the authority rather than submitting to it. If it happens in our lives as you state, then you will see me converting to Orthodoxy also.

Thanks for explaining the difference between the Book of Common Prayer and Book of Divine Worship.

Regarding the dogma of infallibility, there are renowned Catholic scholars who question and criticize this development Theologians such as Han Kung and Bernard Cooke have written extensively on the subject. Here’s a recent article in the National Catholic Reporter citing concerns by Cooke.

**"Cooke wrote that, “without stating it explicitly,” these theologians “are suggesting that the key view of Vatican II regarding the collegiality of pope and bishops has yet to be absorbed in official thinking or honored in papal behavior.”

According to Cooke, this detachment in the papal office makes some theologians question the pope’s teaching authority in matters of ethical judgment. Questioning his ethical authority led Cooke to evaluate the uneasiness surrounding papal infallibility.

“Basic questions have arisen about applying the term ‘infallible’ to anything or anyone except God,” Cooke wrote.

Beyond asking whether the pope is infallible, Cooke asked Catholic thinkers to “ask how much of the papal claims to authority and power are intrinsic to the nature of the church.”
Cooke admitted that the questions he was posing are precarious to discuss but he believed the evolving Christian discipleship demands such questions be examined."**
ncronline.org/news/people/sacraments-ministry-heart-cookes-50-years-work

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thanks for explaining the difference between the Book of Common Prayer and Book of Divine Worship.

Regarding the dogma of infallibility, there are renowned Catholic scholars who question and criticize this development Theologians such as Han Kung and Bernard Cooke have written extensively on the subject. Here’s a recent article in the National Catholic Reporter citing concerns by Cooke.

**"Cooke wrote that, “without stating it explicitly,” these theologians “are suggesting that the key view of Vatican II regarding the collegiality of pope and bishops has yet to be absorbed in official thinking or honored in papal behavior.”

According to Cooke, this detachment in the papal office makes some theologians question the pope’s teaching authority in matters of ethical judgment. Questioning his ethical authority led Cooke to evaluate the uneasiness surrounding papal infallibility.

“Basic questions have arisen about applying the term ‘infallible’ to anything or anyone except God,” Cooke wrote.

Beyond asking whether the pope is infallible, Cooke asked Catholic thinkers to “ask how much of the papal claims to authority and power are intrinsic to the nature of the church.”
Cooke admitted that the questions he was posing are precarious to discuss but he believed the evolving Christian discipleship demands such questions be examined."**
ncronline.org/news/people/sacraments-ministry-heart-cookes-50-years-work

I almost never use quotes by Luther or Lutherans to discredit a certain Lutheran doctrine. Why? People are entitled to THEIR opinion. Just because a few Catholics are not in line with Church teaching does not discredit the doctrine in question. There are many people and sites that claim Lutherans believe in Consubstan rather than Transubstan. Thanks to JonNC, I know that is incorrect.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I almost never use quotes by Luther or Lutherans to discredit a certain Lutheran doctrine. Why? People are entitled to THEIR opinion. Just because a few Catholics are not in line with Church teaching does not discredit the doctrine in question. There are many people and sites that claim Lutherans believe in Consubstan rather than Transubstan. Thanks to JonNC, I know that is incorrect.

Dialogue among Christians shouldn’t mean discrediting doctrine. Infallibility receives lots of attention on this forum. I think it is important that we include those who question and seek discernment whether they be theologians or laity.

The focus of this thread asks the question if Francis will invite Lutherans into an ordinariate and follow Benedict in urging unity within the holy Church; something I pray for.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Dialogue among Christians shouldn’t mean discrediting doctrine. Infallibility receives lots of attention on this forum. I think it is important that we include those who question and seek discernment whether they be theologians or laity.

The focus of this thread asks the question if Francis will invite Lutherans into an ordinariate and follow Benedict in urging unity within the holy Church; something I pray for.

I will gladly follow back to the topic of the thread!

When my Episcopalian and Anglican Catholic family members joined the Anglican Ordinariate in the US, they agreed on the teachings of the Church. They did not demand the Church to change certain doctrines before they came into full communion. There was not mutal give and take by both parties. Rome created a Ordinariate and those who wished to join while still holding to certain customs of Anglicanism gladly swam the Tiber.

I share in your desire for unity as I am sure Christ wishes us to be unified, but not at the cost of the Church bending to society and allowing certain doctrines to fall by the waste side. If one oposes certain doctrines, then that person will probably remain in the denomination they agree with. I still have family in the Anglican Communion because they did not want to agree to believe in certain doctrine. The same can be said with Lutherans as well.

 

[Peter_J]

For EvangelCatholic:

“Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other”

• the Balamand Statement

With that in mind, we don’t try to get the faithful of one Church pass over to the other, in general … but I think it would be doubly wrong if we were to try to get the faithful of one Church pass over to the other by bending the rules of what Catholics are supposed to believe.

 

[rfournier103]

Honestly, I don’t see what harm that could do. Send out the invitation, and wait for the RSVPs.

Of course, propper “theologial attire” will be required. I am not, nor have I ever been, Protestant; but I think that some some haven’t “come back” because they were never asked? Maybe? If I were a Protestant “on the fence”, I’d at least look at it as a possibility.

As far as authority and infallibility go… Every Lutheran Parish has a pastor, and the Pope is the Pastor of the biggest Church of them all (I’ve used this before).

I wonder what infallible declarations the Pope has made that upset people so much… I believe that the last time a Pope spoke ex cathedra was 1954-ish… Are there any ex cathedra statements that are particularly gauling?

Many Christians accept the teachings of their pastors without question as if they were infallible. Yet they get hung up on that word when it comes to the Vicar of Christ… That’s amazing to me…

 

[aidanbradypop]

Honestly, I don’t see what harm that could do. Send out the invitation, and wait for the RSVPs.

Of course, propper “theologial attire” will be required. I am not, nor have I ever been, Protestant; but I think that some some haven’t “come back” because they were never asked? Maybe? If I were a Protestant “on the fence”, I’d at least look at it as a possibility.

As far as authority and infallibility go… Every Lutheran Parish has a pastor, and the Pope is the Pastor of the biggest Church of them all (I’ve used this before).

I wonder what infallible declarations the Pope has made that upset people so much… I believe that the last time a Pope spoke ex cathedra was 1954-ish… Are there any ex cathedra statements that are particularly gauling?

Many Christians accept the teachings of their pastors without question as if they were infallible. Yet they get hung up on that word when it comes to the Vicar of Christ… That’s amazing to me…

Www.catholicscomehome.org is a wonderful start

 

[Peter_J]

Honestly, I don’t see what harm that could do. Send out the invitation, and wait for the RSVPs.

Maybe we should send a letter to Cardinal Koch et al and tell them.

Well, or just give them a computer with internet access.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Maybe we should send a letter to Cardinal Koch et al and tell them.

Well, or just give them a computer with internet access.

You have to teach them how to turn it on first!

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I sense with some Catholics unease over ecumenical work such as the Lutheran-Catholic dialogues the past 50 years in which consensus was identified *. Pope Benedict did not demand Lutherans compromise but rather pointed out what we have in common with the Roman Catholic Church. Benedict came close to acknowledging the catholicity of the Augsburg Confession and spoke highly of Martin Luther.

Infallibility will no longer be an obstacle to Lutherans, Orthodox, and Anglicans when the Vatican finds a solution. That day is coming.*

 

[aidanbradypop]

Infallibility will no longer be an obstacle to Lutherans, Orthodox, and Anglicans when the Vatican finds a solution. That day is coming.

There is a solution, but you are not willing to believe such a thing. The Infallible Church has declared papal infallibility.

 

[Peter_J]

I sense with some Catholics unease over ecumenical work such as the Lutheran-Catholic dialogues the past 50 years in which consensus was identified *.
*

Well, yes, I’m sure you could find some uneasy Catholics … just like I’m sure you could find some some Orthodox who are uneasy with their dialogue with Catholics (or with Lutherans, or with Anglicans).
EvangelCatholic;10969217:

Pope Benedict did not demand Lutherans compromise but rather pointed out what we have in common with the Roman Catholic Church. Benedict came close to acknowledging the catholicity of the Augsburg Confession and spoke highly of Martin Luther.

Infallibility will no longer be an obstacle to Lutherans, Orthodox, and Anglicans when the Vatican finds a solution. That day is coming.

Let’s hope. In the meantime, Anglicans who want to “switch sides” are welcome in the Ordinariates.

 

[steido01]

Speaking of ordinariates, this seems relevant: catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-says-catholics-seeking-confirmation-can-join-anglican-ordinariate/

Pope Francis has decided that baptized Catholics (albeit under special circumstances, and mostly of the “baptized-and-then-fallen-away” variety) can join the ordinariates.

To me, this seems evidence of Rome’s further acceptance of Anglicanism (and, indirectly, other non-Roman expressions of Christianity). Perhaps this growing openness is a precursor to the sort of ecumenism we might see Rome engage in with other separated church bodies?

I guess what I’m saying is: I’m warming to the idea of a Lutheran ordinariate (assuming, of course, that Rome could fix that papal infallibility silliness! ).

 

[aidanbradypop]

I guess what I’m saying is: I’m warming to the idea of a Lutheran ordinariate (assuming, of course, that Rome could fix that papal infallibility silliness! ).

Then you are not open to a Lutheran Ordinariate if you’re against papal infallibility. The Catholics of the Anglican Use have no issue with it. If they did then I’m sure they would still be members of the Anglican Communion.

 

[Peter_J]

I guess what I’m saying is: I’m warming to the idea of a Lutheran ordinariate

I may be going out on a limb a little bit here, but it seems common sense that there is *somewhere *in the world where a “Lutheran ordinariate” could be a good idea. There must be countries with something like the ELCA, but without anything like the LCMS; in which case I can imagine conservatives Lutherans saying “Where will we go? Maybe we should reconsider Rome.” and so on.

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. I wonder if we could do something about the name? That is to say, I can see how “Anglican Ordinariate” might give people the impression that we are trying to steal the name “Anglican” from the Anglicans.

Or maybe we could each give a little, so to speak. Like saying: The Anglicans don’t have exclusive ownership of the word “Anglican”, and Catholics don’t have exclusive ownership of the word “Catholic”.

 

[aidanbradypop]

P.S. I wonder if we could do something about the name? That is to say, I can see how “Anglican Ordinariate” might give people the impression that we are trying to steal the name “Anglican” from the Anglicans.

Or maybe we could each give a little, so to speak. Like saying: The Anglicans don’t have exclusive ownership of the word “Anglican”, and Catholics don’t have exclusive ownership of the word “Catholic”.

It is actually called The Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. Many of us state Anglican Ordinariate but that is simply for conversation.

 

[aidanbradypop]

There are also Byzantine Rite Lutherans in Eastern Europe. They are called the Ukrainian Lutheran Church. They would probably have a Use if such Ordinariate was created. Many Lutheran services are based on the Latin Mass so no need for a Ordinariate IMO.