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lssanjose
Guest
That’ll be the eternal debate, until reunion is ultimately achieved. Hopefully, it happens in our lifetimes. If not, hopefully, we pave the way, while we’re still around. I don’t know if I’m doing my part, but a part of me thinks so. I base it on my being with the Byzantine brethren, and doing vespers with the Orthodox church, nearby my apartment. I find myself lucky the parish I’ve been going to isn’t anti-catholic, and have been very welcoming.I’ll tell you what, I may have chosen St. Paul as my confirmation saint (though I flubbed, and said Peter, instead…) I’m being more drawn to Saints like Theophan the Recluse, and Seraphim of Sarov. It helps to have that big icon of Seraphim hanging from the part of the church where I stand in front of it. So, when I exit, I’m greeted by his picture/icon. I can’t help but stand in awe, especially hearing his story.
Thanks for sharing this. I am probably not alone among western non-Catholics in my belief that reconciliation and unity of Orthodoxy and Rome is the single key firststep in further unity of the Church.
Jon
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manualman
Guest
This is a point that deserves more discussion. Publisher is right that protestants generally believe that The Church is an invisible reality that is only imperfectly manifested in churches as fallen humans understand them. Over the centuries, this idea has evolved in response to the blatantly obvious fact that protestantism is so splintered that it’s absurd for any of them to claim to be THE church Christ established. It is an idea born of necessity of circumstances and (for obvious reasons) protestants generally don’t like to think too hard about what an uttely different organizational principle this idea is in comparison to the model shown in the New Testament.
But I think Publisher’s description of catholics “forcing” their definition of church on protestants betrays his own bias. This sort of dialogue would be necessary in discussing the relative merits of human constructs. But catholics don’t believe that WE invented the church, we believe that Jesus established “one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.” We don’t believe that the assertion that this is an invisible entity is biblically viable, but that it’s a convenient dodge around what Christ clearly commanded: one church, united as a visible presence in the world and headed by the apostles and their successors (with St. Peter acting as head among heads, so to speak). Instead, we falle humans (we all share the blame) have preferred to divide the Lord’s house against itself and we’ve seen the power of our witness to the world decrease in inverse proportion to the degree in which we’ve divided.
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joe370
Guest
I don’t really see protestantism as falling apart, but rather expanding, albeit in a fractured way. Sadly, folks will, no doubt, continue to establish churches in the name of Jesus. I myself don’t get it.
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Publisher
Guest
At the same time most of us do believe Catholcs “invented” their own particular brand of Christianity that became the dominant organizational structure especially after the organizational church became an arm of the Roman government…“Publisher” may “betray his own bias”…but then if I didn’t beleive God’s Church is found among those who believe and serve Him in faith but in an organizational structure…I’d be Catholic, Mormon, JW or one of the other groups that claim to be the “True Church”. Perhaps your statement “betreays your bias” as well.
While I do not beleive all who attend a “church” building and have their names on the respective “rosters” of church rolls and particiapte in it’s respective rituals are “Christians” and members of the Church…but those who follow Him in faith…we are members fo a very visible church…I meet with them each First Day…“where two or three are gathered together, there am I in their midst”…we’re in Good Company.
It is the Catholic “caricature” of “making up a church any time we want” that I have real issue with…truth is we don’t…why keep asserting it? I don’t expect it to cease…but it is not a statement founded in Truth to claim we do…
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joe370
Guest
It’s your belief that the PCs will feel more willing to reconcile with the CC once they see the CC and EOCs united as one church?
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joe370
Guest
Hey Publisher. I am assuming you believe this happened in the 4th century, around the time of emperor Constantine? Correct me if I am mistaken.
Let’s say you are correct. From that very moment in time when Catholics reputedly invented their own particular brand of Christianity in the 4th century, where did Jesus’ true church continue to thrive and evangelize, and by what name did His church go by from the reputed 4th century apostasy to the 11th century east west schism?
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Publisher
Guest
No…it happened much earlier as “proto-orthodox/catholic” groups began to emerge as the dominant form of Christianity…it emerged early in the second century…and as it’s organizational structure spread and congregation by congregation accepted it’s precepts of organization and leadership canidates…it found fruition and became a “force” when Constantine adopted Christianity and used the “proto-orthodox/catholic” groups to bring “unity” of sorts to Rome…there was a ready made network of communication already established among the 'proto-orthodox/catholic" groups that many of the “competitors” just didn’t have…Constantine’s “conversion” was more political than religious from what I read…I tend to give the “non-faith affirming” secular histories of that time more credibility than the “faith affirming” history the dominant church portrays for itself.
Jesus True Church existed among each and every group that met in his name…God’s Church isn’t in schism…or in fractions…just some relgious organizations that claim to be the True Church are in opposition to one another…God’s People know one another…and worship with one another…and serve our world…doesn’t matter what name is on the sign in front of the building the Church meets in.
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joe370
Guest
The catholic church, from the second century until today, certainly met, and continues to meet in Jesus’ name. Logically speaking, even if you believe that the catholic church leadership invented their own particular brand of Christianity, (as is the case with protestant churches) - the CC, by your reasoning has always been a part of Jesus’ true church - right?
All claiming to be the true church meeting in Jesus’ name.
Understood.God’s People know one another…and worship with one another…and serve our world…doesn’t matter what name is on the sign in front of the building the Church meets in.
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Publisher
Guest
I don’t think I ever intimated that members of your faith tradition are not members of His Church…not all Friends are members of His Church…attending a Meeting for Worship doesn’t make one a Christian…BEING a follower of Christ and seeking to share in His Incarnation in our world makes us a Christian…living in faith and obedience to Him brings us into relationship with Him…it doesn’t matter what name is on the sign in front of the building we meet to worship…it matter’s Who’s Name we bear in faith.The catholic church, from the second century until today, certainly met in Jesus’ name - right? Even if you believe that the catholic church leadership invented their own particular brand of Christianity that became the dominant organizational structure especially after the organizational church became an arm of the Roman government - the CC, by your reasoning has always been a part of Jesus’ true church - right?
**God’s Church isn’t in schism…or in fractions…just some relgious organizations that claim to be the True Church are in opposition to one another…
**
All claiming to be the true church meeting in Jesus’ name.
Understood.
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joe370
Guest
What threw me was the following: “Catholics invented their own particular brand of Christianity in the 4th century…”
If the CC invented their own brand of Christianity, then how can it be a part of the true church of Jesus Christ?
How would Jesus feel about people inventing doctrine in His name?
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Publisher
Guest
It’s not what we necessarily beleive that makes us members of God’s Church…but our walk of faith and our service to others…In the story of the last judgement in Matthew, the King never asks what religous community one belongs to…or what doctrinal confession or creed one ascribes to…instead…“I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was in prison…” “If you have done it to the least of these, you have done it to Me.”…Seems to me…God has a different set of criteria on who He accepts…and doctrine and religious affiliation doesn’t seem to be mentioned…but how we live with others in our world…and if we see the face of Jesus in the “unlovely” one’s in our midst is more important. I don’t think there’s one place where God asks people “Do you believe XYZ?” He usually seems to ask about our treatment of others and how well we love and serve.What threw me was the following: “Catholics invented their own particular brand of Christianity in the 4th century…”
If the CC invented their own brand of Christianity, then how can it be a part of the true church of Jesus Christ?
Certainly not all, but I think there may be a certain number with the mindset similar to mine, that such a unity could only be a sign of the Holy Spirit moving within his Church Militant, a sign that I personally could not ignore or resist.
Jon
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joe370
Guest
Well, you know me, I hope and pray for a full reunification of all churches.
Its a prayer we have shared as brothers in Christ for quite a while. Wish we could share the Eucharist , too.Well, you know me, I hope and pray for a full reunification of all churches.
Jon
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joe370
Guest
What about the following teachings:
Baptism by water vs no water?
The Eucharist being, sacrificially and commemoratively, Jesus’ Body and Blood (my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink…) as opposed to a simple commemorative meal, metaphorically speaking?
In each case, one is invented and one is from Jesus, and in both cases, eternal life is at stake, as per sacred scripture? Of course, I agree totally with you about the importance of how we live with others in the world by seeing the face of Jesus in everyone. I think all of Christendom is one and united when it comes to that wonderful teaching.
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joe370
Guest
I suppose it just depends on one’s perspective, as to whether or not you do. I wish I could make that determination but I am a nobody regarding doctrinal authority. I simply adhere to the teachings of the catholic church. I have come to believe that obedience to the church is not only biblical but inspires humility and of course is critical to the unity of the church, regardless of denomination.Its a prayer we have shared as brothers in Christ for quite a while. Wish we could share the Eucharist , too.
Jon
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Cat
Guest
It matters if you are talking to Protestants.
Why make a dubious statement right at the beginning of a discussion and thus cause all of your subsequent statements to appear likewise dubious?
The best way to bear witness of the truth of Catholicism is to speak truth in all things. If my husband was able to dismantle the “33,000 denominations” myth, then others will also be able to dismantle it.
If the '33,000 denoms" statement is true, then it is important to find rock solid documentation. But unless you have that documentation, it’s best to simply say, “There are a lot of Protestant denominations, and this isn’t what Jesus had in mind when He founded ONE Church.”
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