Will Protestantism divide until it fails ultimately?

[GKC]

What I find most obviously lacking from many Catholics’ comprehension of Anglicanism is just how central the above comment is to the nature of Anglicanism.

Anglicans are a motley crew.

246th time I’ve posted that, IIRC.

GKC

 

[GKC]

It matters if you are talking to Protestants.

Why make a dubious statement right at the beginning of a discussion and thus cause all of your subsequent statements to appear likewise dubious?

The best way to bear witness of the truth of Catholicism is to speak truth in all things. If my husband was able to dismantle the “33,000 denominations” myth, then others will also be able to dismantle it.

If the '33,000 denoms" statement is true, then it is important to find rock solid documentation. But unless you have that documentation, it’s best to simply say, “There are a lot of Protestant denominations, and this isn’t what Jesus had in mind when He founded ONE Church.”

Your husband was correct. The numbers (which at times as been 20,000, or 25,000, or other sums), are ultimately derived from an academic source. The calculations for that total number are done in an idiosyncratic manner, and a peculiar definition for the term “denomination” by the folks who put out a series of reference books, primarily The World Christian Encyclopedia. Here’s a statement they made, when someone questioned how their total was arrived at, for each updated edition:

*Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

More precise listings of denominations can be found in the World Christian Encyclopedia, under the article for each country. *

Still, a lot of denominations, to be sure. But using the total figure reflects a misunderstanding of the source.

GKC

 

[Cat]

Your husband was correct. The numbers (which at times as been 20,000, or 25,000, or other sums), are ultimately derived from an academic source. The calculations for that total number are done in an idiosyncratic manner, and a peculiar definition for the term “denomination” by the folks who put out a series of reference books, primarily The World Christian Encyclopedia. Here’s a statement they made, when someone questioned how their total was arrived at, for each updated edition:

*Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”*

More precise listings of denominations can be found in the World Christian Encyclopedia, under the article for each country.

Still, a lot of denominations, to be sure. But using the total figure reflects a misunderstanding of the source.

GKC

Thank you for posting this. I’m always upset when I see my Catholic brothers and sisters making the “33,000 denoms” mistatement. It makes them look foolish in front of their well-read and well-prepared evangelical Protestant brothers and sisters, and it casts into doubt everything else they say. If they listen to Protestant apologetic radio shows, they will hear the Protestant apologists dismantle this statement just like you (and my husband) did.

For those Catholics who are interested in apologetics, here is something that you need to know about evangelical Protestants–they believe very strongly in Deuteronomy 18: 21 and 22–And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The way we interpreted this was that if anyone speaks, EVERYTHING they say must be true. If they tell even one fib, then they are not to be trusted. They are “false prophets.”

So be very very careful about making hyperbolic statements around evangelical Protestants. You might get away with that among mainline Protestants who aren’t so literal in their interpretation of the Bible, but not with evangelicals. They’ll call you on it, and what’s worse, they will not trust anything else you say. That’s not good–we WANT to be able to evangelize evangelical Protestants, but if they think we’re false prophets, they won’t listen to us, and what’s worse, they may choose to shun us. (Only the strong evangelists and apologists will continue to associate with us, but other evangelicals will stay away because of other Bible verses.)

Like I said, sticking with the truth is always safe. There is no need to exaggerate the number of non-Catholic Christian denominations. Just pick up a local phone book, turn to the “Churches” section of the Yellow Pages, and raise your eyebrows.

I hope this information is helpful and useful to those who wish to be witnesses to evangelical Protestants.

 

[Publisher]

It matters if you are talking to Protestants.

Why make a dubious statement right at the beginning of a discussion and thus cause all of your subsequent statements to appear likewise dubious?

The best way to bear witness of the truth of Catholicism is to speak truth in all things. If my husband was able to dismantle the “33,000 denominations” myth, then others will also be able to dismantle it.

If the '33,000 denoms" statement is true, then it is important to find rock solid documentation. But unless you have that documentation, it’s best to simply say, “There are a lot of Protestant denominations, and this isn’t what Jesus had in mind when He founded ONE Church.”

Catholics quote the statistics for Protestants…but deny the statistics are correct when the same set of statistics peaks of the number of “Catholic denominatiion”.

 

[GKC]

Catholics quote the statistics for Protestants…but deny the statistics are correct when the same set of statistics peaks of the number of “Catholic denominatiion”.

That is one reason why I basically quit commenting on the number. It is a part of the urban legend of amateur apologetics, and unlikely to be extirpated. And the basic principle, on number (lots) of churches, is sound, within a paradigm of Ut Omnes Unum Sint.

GKC

 

[GaryTaylor]

From a fundamental aspect how does John 6:53 square from the point of Free-Will? IMHO I see the point of contention of Faith Alone here. Not that I care to debate it for 40-page’s but it does seem to be the area of focus.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Really does not matter if it is 45,000 or 4,500,none were founded by Jesus or the Apostles. Christ simply founded ONE church and it is His alone.

And right now, that one church is split in half, depending on who’s talking

Unfortunately! Both sides are responsbile. Human pride is deadly!

 

[manualman]

1. At the same time most of us do believe Catholcs “invented” their own particular brand of Christianity that became the dominant organizational structure especially after the organizational church became an arm of the Roman government…“Publisher” may “betray his own bias”…but then if I didn’t beleive God’s Church is found among those who believe and serve Him in faith but in an organizational structure…I’d be Catholic, Mormon, JW or one of the other groups that claim to be the “True Church”. Perhaps your statement “betreays your bias” as well.
2. While I do not beleive all who attend a “church” building and have their names on the respective “rosters” of church rolls and particiapte in it’s respective rituals are “Christians” and members of the Church…but those who follow Him in faith…we are members fo a very visible church…I meet with them each First Day…“where two or three are gathered together, there am I in their midst”…we’re in Good Company.
3. It is the Catholic “caricature” of “making up a church any time we want” that I have real issue with…truth is we don’t…why keep asserting it? I don’t expect it to cease…but it is not a statement founded in Truth to claim we do…

1. It took me a while to try and comprehend your argument here, but I think I’m following you. Absolutely I come from a catholic perspective, so I have an opinion that Jesus selected 12 apostles with the express purpose of establishing a teaching authority and (also as a catholic) I believe the NT is pretty clear in demonstrating how those apostles resolved disputes, replaced their number upon death, delegated authority to bishops and, in principle, showing a clear intent to have a hierarchy with teaching authority in a way that neither Scripture nor Tradition ever abrogates in favor of a Sola Scriptura model. My original post was an objection to the way that your post presumed that the church is fundamentally an invisible association of believers (even if it has incidental visible manifestations). You may not like the way I see or describe your worldview, but I’m primarily pointing out to the catholic OP the way your response fails to address his catholic faith. It’s not personal.
2. Straw man and you know it. Catholics understand that BAPTISM makes us part of the church via a gift of Grace, not the “building” or some “roster.” Worse, you contradict yourself by citing invisible characteristics of what makes up your ‘visible’ church. You can’t really know what is in the heart of the other guy when “two or more gather in His name.” That guy might not be a believer at all deep down, right? The substance is invisible, admit it. For catholics, it IS visible. Theoretically it doesn’t stop being the local manifestation of the church if EVERY parishioner and even the priest has stopped believing deep inside. By baptism, they’ve been changed forever by Grace, even if they abandon the gift of faith. A believing visitor to this sad parish for Sunday mass would still experience the actual mass, still receive the real body of Christ (fine print asterisk on the priest, not relevant here), and would still be communing with both the visible and invisible Body of Christ. Unlike some protestants, catholics don’t believe in ‘once saved, always saved.’ It sounds weird, but it is a gift: our experience of the body of Christ is not dependent on the sanctity of the guy in the next pew. It is about surrender to Christ.
3. OK, you don’t make new ones all the time by YOUR definition of “church.” That definition just doesn’t look very much like the principles established in the NT say “church” should be (no necessity for an unbroken link to the apostles). You disagree, I get it. But don’t pretend our position is absurd. We just have a different definition of what “church” is than you do. Since in your definition, when three believers with a bible get together and pray it is a manifestation of the one church, then you CAN establish a new ‘church’ whenever you want, no? You’d just call it a new local manifestation of the one church, right? Even if that group disagreed bitterly with other congregations on theological issues…

All the above shouldn’t be extrapolated to conclude that catholics believe protestants are going to hell or anything. Salvation is a gift of Grace. Christ established the Church to be a GIFT to humanity, not a shackle on the Father. Catholics believe that protestant believers truly are part of the catholic church via baptism (or baptism of desire in some cases-long story), but imperfectly so as regards God’s will for the Church. It’s my contention here that these divisions have strongly dimmed the light the Church historically was to the greater world in need of Christ.

 

[Prosmith]

That is one reason why I basically quit commenting on the number. It is a part of the urban legend of amateur apologetics, and unlikely to be extirpated. And the basic principle, on number (lots) of churches, is sound, within a paradigm of Ut Omnes Unum Sint.

GKC

The same ideology that Catholics use to show the vast number of seperate and individual Protestant factions can be used in reverse to showcase the different seperate beliefs that practicing Catholics have within the Roman church regarding Mary, the Eucharist etc. For them to say that the difference in it all lies in the one true doctrine of the RCC is really a very useless argument in a vacuum or otherwise.

 

[GKC]

The same ideology that Catholics use to show the vast number of seperate and individual Protestant factions can be used in reverse to showcase the different seperate beliefs that practicing Catholics have within the Roman church regarding Mary, the Eucharist etc. For them to say that the difference in it all lies in the one true doctrine of the RCC is really a very useless argument in a vacuum or otherwise.

I don’t consider that a parallel. The numbers, whatever they are, are of distinct Churches (counted separately in each country, of course, in that particular source). Your RC example is of numbers of people within one distinct Church (RCC) who fail to affirm what the Church requires them to affirm to formally be considered a member of the Church. It amounts to saying “Here’s a large number of separate protestant Churches. And over here is the single RCC, those Churches in communion with Rome, and there are folks in it who don’t believe all of its tenets”. Still one Church versus a large number of Churches.

GKC

 

[manualman]

The same ideology that Catholics use to show the vast number of seperate and individual Protestant factions can be used in reverse to showcase the different seperate beliefs that practicing Catholics have within the Roman church regarding Mary, the Eucharist etc. For them to say that the difference in it all lies in the one true doctrine of the RCC is really a very useless argument in a vacuum or otherwise.

Yes and no. Catholics have an authoritative decision making unit to divide ‘de fide’ matters (dogma) from theological speculation and deduction. Thus, catholics who disagree about, say, a Marian theological idea generally recognize (there’s a bomb chucker in EVERY crowd, eh?) that they are BOTH operating in the field of theological speculation and deduction and rarely end up doubting the other guy’s very salvation. For us, you either look it up, or if it’s never been addressed before have the potential duelers take it up with the CDF at the Vatican. Catholics may not be able to completely explain how some Byzantine catholic theology that SEEMS to conflict with Roman catholic theology can both be right, but they are. But then, would you really expect the God who created existence itself to be EASY to understand?

 

[Prosmith]

I don’t consider that a parallel. The numbers, whatever they are, are of distinct Churches (counted separately in each country, of course, in that particular source). Your RC example is of numbers of people within one distinct Church (RCC) who fail to affirm what the Church requires them to affirm to formally be considered a member of the Church. It amounts to saying “Here’s a large number of separate protestant Churches. And over here is the single RCC, those Churches in communion with Rome, and there are folks in it who don’t believe all of its tenets”. Still one Church versus a large number of Churches.

GKC

I should have been clearer. My point is the criteria and not so much the churches as entities.

 

[GKC]

Yes and no. Catholics have an authoritative decision making unit to divide ‘de fide’ matters (dogma) from theological speculation and deduction. Thus, catholics who disagree about, say, a Marian theological idea generally recognize (there’s a bomb chucker in EVERY crowd, eh?) that they are BOTH operating in the field of theological speculation and deduction and rarely end up doubting the other guy’s very salvation. For us, you either look it up, or if it’s never been addressed before have the potential duelers take it up with the CDF at the Vatican. Catholics may not be able to completely explain how some Byzantine catholic theology that SEEMS to conflict with Roman catholic theology can both be right, but they are. But then, would you really expect the God who created existence itself to be EASY to understand?

I took Prosmith to be speaking of de fide matters, as well as legitimate speculation. Perhaps I was wrong.

GKC

 

[manualman]

I should have been clearer. My point is the criteria and not so much the churches as entities.

This goes back to my point about the Church’s mission to be a VISIBLE presence in the world. Yes, the individual variation of belief among catholics in the pew is so great as to make it absurd to attempt to claim that each individual of the church believes the same things. But the church is MORE than the sum of her members. Catholic belief is not the weighted average of what its adherents believe, but the formal doctrines defined and recorded by the prophets, Christ, and the apostles (and their successors to this day).

Protestants say the same thing with the bible substituted for apostles, but the problem therein is that you can’t actually ask a book to interpret itself when honest and sincere differences in interpretation arise. When there are PEOPLE to ask, you can. Thus, VISIBLE presence of the body of Christ as witness to the world.

 

[Nicea325]

Catholics quote the statistics for Protestants…but deny the statistics are correct when the same set of statistics peaks of the number of “Catholic denominatiion”.

Catholic denominations? A bogus statistic. The CC has rites,not the same as denominations.Denominations is term applied to Protestants,fundamentalists,etc. No such term applies to Catholicism. Either it is Catholic or not. The Protestant world simply is adding the CC into the mix of denominations. People need to stop including the CC as a denomination-it is NOT!

 

[GKC]

Catholic denominations? A bogus statistic. The CC has rites,not the same as denominations.Denominations is term applied to Protestants,fundamentalists,etc. No such term applies to Catholicism. Either it is Catholic or not. The Protestant world simply is adding the CC into the mix of denominations. People need to stop including the CC as a denomination-it is NOT!

See post #42 above. The word “denomination” is used, by the group which issues the statistics under discussion, in a particular, idiosyncratic way.

GKC

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Prosmith

The same ideology that Catholics use to show the vast number of seperate and individual Protestant factions can be used in reverse to showcase the different seperate beliefs that practicing Catholics have within the Roman church regarding Mary, the Eucharist etc. For them to say that the difference in it all lies in the one true doctrine of the RCC is really a very useless argument in a vacuum or otherwise.

False premise and the above is a Protestant mindset,not a Catholic one. And individual’s opinion and different beliefs from ratified CC doctrine or dogma has no iota of bearing on doctrinal Truth. Either God guides His Church with absolute Truth or He simply is pulling everyone’s leg.

 

[manualman]

See post #42 above. The word “denomination” is used, by the group which issues the statistics under discussion, in a particular, idiosyncratic way.

Yes, so when you carve out the idiosyncracies, you’re only left with, what, 350 distinct protestant denominations? Clearly THAT’s not a problem, right?

 

[GKC]

Yes, so when you carve out the idiosyncracies, you’re only left with, what, 350 distinct protestant denominations? Clearly THAT’s not a problem, right?

I’d assume there were more than that.

GKC

 

[GaryTaylor]

Truth is it makes no difference since all that are Baptised by the recognized means of the CC all fall under one large tent.

This make’s one simply not in Communion with the CC.

Every congregation in all Church’s have great Christians, good Christians, luke-warm Christians and on and on. blah blah blah. No big mystery there.

Can one imperfectly seek the Lord? Without a doubt. Happens every day, worldwide. The weeds grow alongside the flowers.

However, I don’t see the Protestant Church’s going anywhere, Denominations will fail, others will start, some will grow, etc etc. Some will come into Communion with Rome, others will convert to the EO, OO, or to mainline Protestant hopefully. And the sun will rise in the east and set in the west.

The idea isn’t to convert and swallow up the Protestant Church’s, nor Islam, nor Buddists, nor Hindus. Its to live in peace, gain understanding, build bridges. and live the message of the Bible for Christians. Love Your Neighbor.

Why will Christians unite? Out of pure need, wants leave the mind to drift, need quickly cuts through the chase. As the need continues to be a reality, then the statistic probability will increase. As evil and its strident clamour continues, christian Souls will put all their petty little differences aside and seek common bonds. And whom would you suggest they will find that common bond with? Right. each other. Christians are the #1 target worldwide at the moment. At the present rate of destruction I see no alternative. The Church’s in the middle east are perishing. There is no sign of a decrease, very much the opposite.

Already in the USA we see the pushing foward of unity over Obama.