Will Protestants be surprised when Jesus judges them according to their deeds?

[De_Maria]

And I think that Catholics who become continuing Snglican have humbled themselves to accept the truth of the catholic faith found in the Anglican tradition.

So you think that all religions are the same? Anglicans accept homosexuality, contraception, and many other evils. You agree with that?

I value and honor your dedication to the Catholic Church, but it seems you’ve got a bit of a double standard

No. I accept the Truth and I know that it is brought to me, undiluted, through the Catholic Church.

I thought you said you were Catholic? Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[JonNC]

So you think that all religions are the same? Anglicans accept homosexuality, contraception, and many other evils. You agree with that?

Actually I don’t. But I also know that people must respond to their conscience. I never criticize someone for becoming Catholic. There one finds God’s grace in word and sacrament.
Note that I said continuing Anglican, effectively Anglo-Catholic.
And yes, it disturbs me when any Christian makes excuses for sinful behavior

No. I accept the Truth and I know that it is brought to me, undiluted, through the Catholic Church.

I thought you said you were Catholic? Maybe I misunderstood.

I understand that that is your opinion, and as a Catholic you should say nothing less.
Never said I was Catholic.

For the moderators: here is why the the new format doesn’t serve us well. Each poster’s faith tradition should be prominent. You need to fix that.

 

[ltwin]

So, if a Lutheran Church has a practicing homosexual pastor. And a layman considers homosexuality a sin. Does the layman sin for disagreeing with the Lutheran position on homosexuality?

If this hypothetical Lutheran church decreed that dissaproving of homosexuality was a sin, then yes according to that church’s teaching being anti-gay marriage would be sinful and people who held that view would be treated as sinning by that church.

The problem with your hypothetical is that no mainline Protestant church has yet declared such a sin. Some denominations have removed restrictions on homosexual marriages and the ordination of homosexual persons, but none have required members to believe that this is approved or commanded by Christ.

 

[AugustTherese]

And I think that Catholics who become continuing Snglican have humbled themselves to accept the truth of the catholic faith found in the Anglican tradition.

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[De_Maria]

Actually I don’t.

Ok.

But I also know that people must respond to their conscience.

Totally different topic.

The point being made is that Protestants respond to their conscience by acting like popes unto themselves. They decide what they want to believe and how they want to worship. They do this because they have the right of private interpretation and deny that they need anything but Scripture alone. Even their confessions tell them that this is the case.

I never criticize someone for becoming Catholic.

That’s good.

There one finds God’s grace in word and sacrament.
Note that I said continuing Anglican, effectively Anglo-Catholic.
And yes, it disturbs me when any Christian makes excuses for sinful behavior

Ok.

I understand that that is your opinion, and as a Catholic you should say nothing less.

What does a Lutheran say? That he gets the undiluted truth from Scripture? Or that he gets the undiluted truth from the Lutheran church?

Never said I was Catholic.

Great. The gloves come off.

Kidding, of course.

 

[JonNC]

The point being made is that Protestants respond to their conscience by acting like popes unto themselves.

Source, where protestants have said this. If you don’t have one, then you are making an accusation instead of listening to what they actually believe. Again, do you want to respond in kind? And let’s remember, Protestant isn’t a group, or a set of beliefs. A continuing Anglican such as me is much closer in belief to you than to a Baptist or American evangelical

What does a Lutheran say? That he gets the undiluted truth from Scripture? Or that he gets the undiluted truth from the Lutheran church?

I was taught just what the Summary Rule and Law States: that scripture is the final barn for all teaching and doctrine. Doctrine comes from the Church and is normed by scripture. If you are a Lutheran, you believe and confess the teachings of the Church as a right reflection of scripture.

 

[JonNC]

True in many respects

 

[De_Maria]

Source, where protestants have said this. If you don’t have one, then you are making an accusation instead of listening to what they actually believe. Again, do you want to respond in kind? And let’s remember, Protestant isn’t a group, or a set of beliefs. A continuing Anglican such as me is much closer in belief to you than to a Baptist or American evangelical

I’ve used the exact confessions you provided. And I copy and texted real life examples of how real life Protestants understand those confessions.

I was taught just what the Summary Rule and Law States: that scripture is the final barn for all teaching and doctrine. Doctrine comes from the Church and is normed by scripture. If you are a Lutheran, you believe and confess the teachings of the Church as a right reflection of scripture.

And I have seen that Protestants treat each of those rules and laws the same way they treat the Scriptures. They interpret them as they want.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

So, if a Lutheran Church has a practicing homosexual pastor. And a layman considers homosexuality a sin. Does the layman sin for disagreeing with the Lutheran position on homosexuality?

If this hypothetical Lutheran church decreed that dissaproving of homosexuality was a sin,

Where’s that in my hypothetical? It’s not there. So, please answer my hypothetical first.

In the meantime, don’t think I’m trying to ignore your point. I’ll simply make another reply with your changes to my hypothetical. I think we’ll arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[ltwin]

Where’s that in my hypothetical? It’s not there. So, please answer my hypothetical first.

As I said, no Lutheran church teaches that you must condone practicing homosexual clergy. Therefore, a Lutheran cannot be guilty of violating a church teaching that does not exist.

 

[JonNC]

I’ve used the exact confessions you provided. And I copy and texted real life examples of how real life Protestants understand those confessions.

Where does it say, “you are your own pope”?

And I have seen that Protestants treat each of those rules and laws the same way they treat the Scriptures. They interpret them as they want.

Which Protestants? You know that most of the denominations called Protestant were not around at the issuing of the formal Protest.
If you’re expecting Presbyterians to accept those confessions, you misunderstand the fact that different communions have different beliefs.

 

[De_Maria]

Where does it say, “you are your own pope”?

Where it says that a layman can judge the teachers based upon Scripture alone.

Which Protestants?

All the ones I’ve spoken to. Including you, I wager.

You know that most of the denominations called Protestant were not around at the issuing of the formal Protest.
If you’re expecting Presbyterians to accept those confessions, you misunderstand the fact that different communions have different beliefs.

Lol! How about the ELCA? Were they around at the formal protest? Are these Lutherans, who essentially promote homosexuality, following the confessions? And do these Lutherans have authority over the WELs? And are the WELs following the confessions? Nasty little web that continues to be spun, in my opinion.

 

[JonNC]

Where it says that a layman can judge the teachers based upon Scripture alone.

Where does the Lutheran Confessions say that?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Where’s that in my hypothetical? It’s not there. So, please answer my hypothetical first.

As I said, no Lutheran church teaches that you must condone practicing homosexual clergy. Therefore, a Lutheran cannot be guilty of violating a church teaching that does not exist.

That’s interesting. Lutherans have imposed Lutheran Clergy on their congregations.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, known as the E.L.C.A., with 4.6 million members, is now the largest Protestant church in the United States to permit noncelibate gay ministers to serve in the ranks of its clergy — an issue that has caused wrenching divisions for it as well as for many other denominations.

So, the Lutheran’s who accept homosexual clergy are following the confessions.
And the Lutherans’ who do not accept homosexual clergy are also following the confessions.

So, where’s the authority to tell anyone that homosexuality is sinful? In Scripture? In the Confessions? In the Lutheran church?

What this proves to me, is that there is not enough authority in any of those documents or in that institution to guide people to make the right decision. Therefore, they are relegated to the only logical course of action left for non-Catholics. Private interpretation.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Where it says that a layman can judge the teachers based upon Scripture alone.

Where does the Lutheran Confessions say that?

#1 in the confessions you provided.

1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

 

[ltwin]

That’s interesting. Lutherans have imposed Lutheran Clergy on their congregations.

Assuming you mean homosexual clergy, NO THEY HAVE NOT. Did you even read the article? Paragraph 8 plainly says:

He noted that while some congregations were open to consider hiring openly gay ministers, others were not–and each congregation is free to choose.

So, the Lutheran’s who accept homosexual clergy are following the confessions.

And the Lutherans’ who do not accept homosexual clergy are also following the confessions.

That isn’t what I said. I said if a church defines something as sinful, then they treat people who commit such acts as sinners. No Protestant church goes around saying, “X is a sin but we are ok with you doing X as long as you think its ok.”

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

De_Maria:

Where it says that a layman can judge the teachers based upon Scripture alone.

Where does the Lutheran Confessions say that?

#1 in the confessions you provided.

1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

The teachers they are talking about are the Church. Priests, etc. but even that phrase limits personal interpretation.

 

[De_Maria]

Assuming you mean homosexual clergy, NO THEY HAVE NOT. Did you even read the article? Paragraph 8 plainly says:

He noted that while some congregations were open to consider hiring openly gay ministers, others were not–and each congregation is free to choose.

Did you read this:

Before the ceremony, one of the gay pastors, the Rev. Megan M. Rohrer, said it had been a long journey from her home in South Dakota — where fellow Lutherans regarded her sexuality as a demon to be exorcised — to being finally welcomed as a minister in the Lutheran church.

“It’s an invitation,” she said of the ceremony, “to join us in the pews every single Sunday, where not a single one of these pastors will care if you agree with us or if you think our families are appropriate. We’ll serve you communion, we’ll pray with you and we’ll visit you in the hospital.”

According to one of you, the laypeople understand Scripture according to the interpretation of the Lutheran Church. But, it’s apparent, that the Lutheran Church is quite confused as to what constitutes sin. As you can see, there are Lutherans and there are Lutherans. The pastors don’t care if you agree with them. They aren’t teaching any doctrine.

 

[De_Maria]

That isn’t what I said. I said if a church defines something as sinful, then they treat people who commit such acts as sinners. No Protestant church goes around saying, “X is a sin but we are ok with you doing X as long as you think its ok.”

It doesn’t matter what you said. The facts speak for themselves.

 

[De_Maria]

Where does the Lutheran Confessions say that?

#1 in the confessions you provided.

1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

The teachers they are talking about are the Church. Priests, etc. but even that phrase limits personal interpretation.
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
To what? Look at Lutheranism.

Abortion:
B. Ending a Pregnancy
This church recognizes that there can be sound reasons for ending a pregnancy through induced abortion

https://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/AbortionSS.pdf?_ga=2.181340974.88807146.1509161081-2051340915.1464535796

Contraception
“This church supports the development and use of medical products, birth control, and initiatives that support fulfilling and responsible sexuality. This church also recognizes the important role that the availability of birth control has played in allowing women and men to make responsible decisions about the bearing and rearing of children.” (A Social Statement on Human Sexuality, 2009 page 35) [7]
http://christianbiowiki.org/wiki/index.php?title=Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America

Gay clergy
Already mentioned.

Lutherans approve of same sex marriage.

Well, not all Lutherans. But all Lutherans, according to you, view the Scripture through the lens of the confessions, as taught by the church.

What’s up?