Will Protestants be surprised when Jesus judges them according to their deeds?

[ATraveller]

I can’t speak for Jon but clearly the ELCA leadership is not viewing Scripture properly.
But couldn’t the same be said for some in the Catholic Church, that these in particular don’t view Scripture like a Catholic should.
How are the problems in Protestantism any different from what’s developing within the Catholic Church? It seems like there are priests who are just like the Mainline clergy. The only difference it seems is there isn’t a formal split in the Catholic Church unlike in Protestantism where its categorically split between Mainline and ‘Evangelical’ and realignments occurring.

 

[ltwin]

It doesn’t matter what you said. The facts speak for themselves.

They do. So lets look at facts.

Are you saying its impossible for a Catholic to disagree with the teachings of his or her church?

De_Maria:

No, but when they do, they sin. Whereas, when a Protestant disagrees with his church’s teachings, he is simply exercising his right to private interpretation.

That’s just ridiculous. If a church’s doctrinal position is that x is a sin, then a member who does x and refuses to repent is considered by that church to be a sinner. No church allows its members to be conscientious objectors to sin.

Now different churches can disagree on what is and is not sinful. A church can determine that it will leave some decisions to the discretion of an individual’s Scripture-informed conscience because, say, the Bible and Christian tradition are not particularly clear on whether a thing is morally wrong or not.

However, when a church says something is a sin then it is a sin for everyone. Citing your own interpretation of Scripture does not change what your church believes is orthodox teaching.

You responded by bringing up the ELCA’s allowance of gay pastors and asking:

Does the layman sin for disagreeing with the Lutheran position on homosexuality?

De_Maria:

And I pointed to the fact that no Lutheran denomination makes accepting gay pastors a requirement of the faith to be believed (so even the ELCA would acknowledge its not a sin to disagree with their recent decision).

You counter this by citing an article that explicitly states the ELCA will not force any congregation to hire a gay pastor.

This ELCA situation has less to do with whether Protestants sin when they go against their church’s teaching and more to do with the fact that the ELCA and similar mainline churches have no coherent teaching on human sexuality anymore.

The ELCA could if it wanted to come out and say full LGBT equality is a command of Christ and all members are expected to conform, but it hasn’t. It has allowed openly LGBT ordinations, but it has not yet required members to believe in this.

 

[ltwin]

According to one of you, the laypeople understand Scripture according to the interpretation of the Lutheran Church. But, it’s apparent, that the Lutheran Church is quite confused as to what constitutes sin. As you can see, there are Lutherans and there are Lutherans. The pastors don’t care if you agree with them. They aren’t teaching any doctrine.

The ELCA is quite confused on matter of homosexuality. But this just proves what I said above, the issue is not whether Protestants believe that a person who goes against church teaching sins. Yes, there is sin in Protestant churches.

As I said before, Protestant churches may disagree on what sin is but once they define it members are expected to live accordingly. The ELCA no longer has a coherent teaching on human sexuality. It has demolished its definitions of what is and is not sexual sin. As it stands now, an ELCA laymen is given the right by his own church to disagree with homosexual clergy. The ELCA explicitly says, “We will ordain LGBT person, but individual churches can make their own decisions.”

The quote by Megan M. Rohrer obscures the issue since a local ELCA church that did not believe in openly gay ministers would never call her to be its pastor in the first place.

The point I’m making (which you don’t seem to have gotten) is that all churches leave some things up to the individual conscience while other things are clearly delineated as sin and unacceptable. Protestant churches do vary in the latitude they give to private interpretation. But even a church like the ELCA (which gives wide latitude on issues such as human sexuality) has teachings that members are expected to follow.

 

[JonNC]

I left the ELCA two decades over issues similar to these, including female ordination.
That said, you have now shifted the subject. Do you want to talk about specific theological views? Fine.
It’ll be boring because on these topics we will more often than not agree.
I assume, then, that you recognize that Lutheranism is not a tradition that promotes personal interpretation regarding doctrine.

Finally, do you really want to talk about homosexuality in the clergy? Surely you are aware of the tragedy within the Catholic clergy these last few decades, and how some bishops had been complicit in trying to hide those problems.
I don’t think the Catholic Church as a whole should be held accountable for the actions of a few, but criticizing others might be undiplomatic.
A few family members of mine left the ELCA over the 2011 Churchwide Assembly, but others remain in parishes that refuse to consider active homosexuals for calls.

 

[JonNC]

But even a church like the ELCA (which gives wide latitude on issues such as human sexuality) has teachings that members are expected to follow.

Exactly. Those teachings are found, particularly, in the Augsburg Confession.

Thank you the excellent posts

 

[JonNC]

I can’t speak for Jon but clearly the ELCA leadership is not viewing Scripture properly.

Understatement. And there are some areas where the ELCA has all but abandoned the confessions, too. I do not wish to bash the ELCA, but it becomes an issue of who has the speck and who has the plank.

 

[De_Maria]

But even a church like the ELCA (which gives wide latitude on issues such as human sexuality) has teachings that members are expected to follow.

Which Lutheran Church?

Alliance of Renewal Churches (ARC - charismatic/Pentecostal)
American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America (ALCA)
Association of Confessional Lutheran Churches (ACLC)
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations (AFLC)
Augsburg Lutheran Churches (ALC)
Augustana Catholic Church (ALCC)
Canadian Association of Lutheran Congregations (CALC)
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America (CLBA)
Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC)
Concordia Lutheran Conference (CLC)
Conservative Lutheran Association (CLA)
Eielsen Synod
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church (EELK)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (ELCIC)
Evangelical Lutheran Conference & Ministerium of North America (ELCM)
Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America (ELDoNA)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS)
Illinois Lutheran Conference (ILC)[1]
Independent Lutheran Diocese (ILD)[2]
Laestadian Lutheran Church (LLC)
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (LELCA)
Lutheran Church–Canada (LCC)
Lutheran Church - International (LC-I)
Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod (LCMS)
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation (LCR)
Lutheran Conference of Confessional Fellowship (LCCF)[3]
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC)
The Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church (GCEPC)
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA (LMS-USA)
Missionary Lutheran Church (MLC)
North American Lutheran Church (NALC)
Old Apostolic Lutheran Church
Orthodox Lutheran Confessional Conference (OLCC)
Protes’tant Conference
United Lutheran Mission Association (ULMA)
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)

Do all of these follow the same confessions? And if the leaders can’t agree with each other, what makes you think the laymen can do so?

 

[JonNC]

Again, if you want to discuss something, stick from post to post to a subject.
You are coming across as just wanting to bash Lutherans, jumping from one issue to another. It is rather lacking in charity.

 

[De_Maria]

Again, if you want to discuss something, stick from post to post to a subject.
You are coming across as just wanting to bash Lutherans, jumping from one issue to another. It is rather lacking in charity.

I’m still making the same point, Jon. You can’t see the truth for the trees. You claim that all Lutherans read Scripture in the lens of the confessions as explained by the church. When I mention other denominations, you claim they weren’t there during the official reformation. You say the Lutherans were there. But, all of these Lutherans, theoretically, read Scripture in the lens of the confessions as explained by the Lutheran church.

If you would acknowledge the truth, it is because everyone of those denominations broke away because of their differences in the understanding of Scripture. Essentially, because of the right of private interpretation combined with the idea of Scripture alone.

And don’t tell me this is the same in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church doesn’t hold to private interpretation of Scripture alone because the Catholic Church WROTE the New Testament. The New Testament is merely one of the Catholic Church’s Teaching instruments.

 

[De_Maria]

I can’t speak for Jon but clearly the ELCA leadership is not viewing Scripture properly.

I agree.

But couldn’t the same be said for some in the Catholic Church, that these in particular don’t view Scripture like a Catholic should.

It is vastly different.

How are the problems in Protestantism any different from what’s developing within the Catholic Church? It seems like there are priests who are just like the Mainline clergy. The only difference it seems is there isn’t a formal split in the Catholic Church unlike in Protestantism where its categorically split between Mainline and ‘Evangelical’ and realignments occurring.

The differences I see, have to do with the basic organization of the respective Church’s.

This is the way I see it.

All Protestant churches, Lutherans included, are based on the precepts of Sola Scriptura and private interpretation.

That gives the Lutheran layperson a lot of leeway to determine for himself, what he will believe.

I know that Jon and Itwin have provided the confessions and say that they are also an important part of Lutheranism. But from personal experience with other Lutherans, I don’t think the majority of Lutherans consider them as important as J&I.

Now, the Catholic Church is totally different in respect to this. I’ve frequently been chided by Protestants that I hung my brain at the door of the Catholic Church. And to their surprise, I acknowledge this wholeheartedly. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach private interpretation nor sola Scriptura. And I agree with that completely. And I agree with everything that I know the Catholic Church Teaches and with everything that I perhaps haven’t heard of yet.

There are, purported Catholics, who disagree with the Catholic Church. But they are merely modern day Luthers and Calvins who will discover in the end, that Jesus Christ speaks through the Catholic Church and that in criticizing the Catholic Church, they are criticizing Christ, Himself.

 

[De_Maria]

I left the ELCA two decades over issues similar to these, including female ordination.
That said, you have now shifted the subject…

I haven’t shifted the subject, Jon. I’ve shifted tactic. Still addressing the same subject, but looking at it from a different perspective.

You said that Lutherans read the Scriptures through the lens of the confessions as addressed by the church. Now, there are a gazillion Lutheran denominations. How can that be, if the gazillion Lutheran denominations don’t believe in private interpretation of Scripture alone?

 

[De_Maria]

ATraveller:

I can’t speak for Jon but clearly the ELCA leadership is not viewing Scripture properly.

Understatement. And there are some areas where the ELCA has all but abandoned the confessions, too. I do not wish to bash the ELCA, but it becomes an issue of who has the speck and who has the plank.

Is ELCA reading the Scriptures through the lens of the confessions in accordance with the church?

 

[lilypadrees]

Protestant Christians’ deeds are often more Christian than many Catholics’ deeds. I would not be eager to see our churches judged by our deeds. Catholics might be in trouble, by that standard.

Not for you to judge. That is God’s department.

 

[ltwin]

Which Lutheran Church?

I was talking about the ELCA. That Lutheran Church. Stop trying to point out to us what we already know–there are lots of Protestant churches.

That has nothing to do with the question of "do Protestants sin when they go against their church’s teaching.’ I explained to you that Protestants do delineate sin and not sin just as the Catholic Church does, but each church will vary because they are different churches. The ELCA refuses to address sexuality, leaving that up to individual members and churches. Yes, that’s dangerous and sad, but it’s not evidence that the ELCA has no belief at all in sin.

You would not hold the actions of the Eastern Orthodox or the Oriental Orthodox against the Catholic Church. Why? Because those are different communions with their own authority structures. They don’t speak for the Catholic Church and vice versa.

You would not expect Eastern Orthodox laity to agree with the Pope on areas where the two communions disagree.

Likewise, if you want to talk about the ELCA than stick to the ELCA. But don’t ask why ELCA laity disagree with Missouri Synod laity. And how this supposedly points to a breakdown in authority. You’re confusing the issue.

Just because there is doctrinal confusion in the ELCA does not mean that all Protestant churches are doctrinally confused and devoid of authority.

 

[De_Maria]

Protestant Christians’ deeds are often more Christian than many Catholics’ deeds.

More often it is the other way around.

I would not be eager to see our churches judged by our deeds. Catholics might be in trouble, by that standard.

Everyone will be judged by that standard, whether you are eager for it or not.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Not for you to judge. That is God’s department.

Amen!

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Which Lutheran Church?

I was talking about the ELCA. That Lutheran Church. Stop trying to point out to us what we already know–there are lots of Protestant churches…

There are lots of Lutheran churches. Do they all follow or purport to follow the ideal which you professed is followed by all Lutherans?

 

[ltwin]

Do they all follow or purport to follow the ideal which you professed is followed by all Lutherans?

What are you talking about? I said nothing about an ideal or that all Lutherans were the same. I said each Lutheran denomination is different, and they decide for themselves what they consider sinful or not. The ELCA is not going to place any restriction on homosexual ordination, but it has also chosen not to demand conformity in this regard. That is their choice on the issue of homosexuality. However, that does not mean the ELCA thinks nothing is a sin. I’m sure if you asked any ELCA pastor they would agree that lying and murder would be sin (whether the lier or murderer agrees or not).

 

[IWantGod]

A human being going to heaven is an act of love and mercy on God’s part. Those of us that make it are going to purgatory first.

Who is worthy?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Do they all follow or purport to follow the ideal which you professed is followed by all Lutherans?

What are you talking about?

Ok, sorry. But you did agree with Jon that Lutherans follow the confessions as a lens through which they understand Scripture as taught by the Church, didn’t you?

I said nothing about an ideal or that all Lutherans were the same…

I’m getting a bit confused between your message and Jon’s.

Didn’t you agree with Jon that Lutherans do not have the right of private interpretation of Scripture alone?

If so, then the point I’m making is, how did it come to these gazillion Lutheran denominations, if Lutherans all believe that their church understand Scripture by the lens of the confession as interpreted by the Lutheran hierarchy?

 

[ltwin]

But you did agree with Jon that Lutherans follow the confessions as a lens through which they understand Scripture as taught by the Church, didn’t you?

I didn’t actually. But I do agree that historically Lutherans have used the confessions as guiding and authoritative interpretations of Scripture, which is the normative rule of faith and life. However, as we all know, some Lutheran denominations have more stricter conformity to the Confessions than others.

Didn’t you agree with Jon that Lutherans do not have the right of private interpretation of Scripture alone?

They don’t have the right of private interpretation on issues that their church closes off to debate, which is the same situation in any other church including the Catholic Church. Some churches give more room for private interpretation than others. You have to look at each denomination on its own merit. You can’t just make blank statements such as “Protestants don’t believe in sin because they have private interpretation.”

If so, then the point I’m making is, how did it come to these gazillion Lutheran denominations, if Lutherans all believe that their church understand Scripture by the lens of the confession as interpreted by the Lutheran hierarchy?

The point I’m making is that there are different Lutheran hierarchies doing the interpreting. Each Lutheran denomination has its own hierarchy.

As to why there are different Lutheran denominations in America, that stems from the US having its origins as a British colony. Lutherans came to the New World from a variety of nations. There were German Lutherans (and each German territory had its own territorial Lutheran church) and there were Scandinavian Lutherans (again each coming from different national churches). The Lutheran denominations we have today form out of the various mergers of this hodgepodge of immigrant churches.

And yes, certain groups of Lutherans had differing interpretations of the Lutheran Confessions and the Scripture. So there were ethnic, cultural, and doctrinal reasons for the multiplicity of Lutheran denominations that originated in America.

Just to use an example, the ELCA itself has only existed since 1988 when 3 Lutheran churches merged. One of those churches was the American Lutheran Church, which itself had existed since 1960, resulted from the merger of 3 older churches. One of these was the Norwegian Lutheran Church of America founded in 1917.

This Norwegian Lutheran church was itself a merger of the Hauge Synod, Norwegian Synod, and the United Norwegian Lutheran Church of America.

This seems chaotic, but its not surprising. When the first Lutherans got to America, there was no Lutheran churches or hierarchies or institutions. They had to build these, and different Lutherans built their own institutions among their own ethnic groups.