Will the Catholic Church go the way of the Protestant mainline?

[The_Iambic_Pen]

As the topic says.

I am attempting to throw myself back into the messy business of finding the Church, a worthy endeavor, but one which entails all sorts of stress and controversy.

I am in the odd position of attending a Protestant church, while sitting on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I admire the attempt at (small ‘o’) orthodoxy by my Protestant church, and I have friends there, but were it not for my wife’s love of the church, I would likely have none of it, choosing instead to alternate my Sundays between the local Catholic and Orthodox houses of worship. However, as any married converts or seekers know, the search for the Church becomes much more complicated when family is involved.

Since family is involved, I am very reluctant to pull my family away from a church that believes in the Bible, upholds traditional Christian morality (aside from the usual Protestant divorce and contraception exceptions), and possesses an evangelical zeal, only to take them somewhere that does not have these good qualities.

The difficulty is that I see two Catholicisms. On the Internet, I can go to Catholic Answers, EWTN, InsideCatholic, the National Catholic Register, and a host of blogs maintained by orthodox, faithful Catholics. These Catholics hold to the true faith, they prefer and are somehow able to find reverent liturgies, and they defend the teachings of the Church.

However, I do not live on the Internet, my vast amount of time on the computer notwithstanding, so I must attend mass at a real Catholic church in the real world. And real Catholic churches in the real world are, as the title suggests, going the way of the Protestant mainline. Now, they are not all doing this, but enough of them are for it to be a source of alarm. Instead of a towering Gothic cathedral, with incense and chant, a bit of Latin, and an orthodox homily, we are more likely to find a “Christian community in the Catholic tradition,” where the theology of the priest and laity alike is indistinguishable from that of the Episcopal church down the street, the art and architecture are stripped of any majesty or beauty, and communion is served by a row of thirty EMHC’s. If we can make it through RCIA with our faith intact, perhaps we can be orthodox members of an unorthodox parish, but it is still a bit depressing.

By contrast, the Orthodox church in our neighborhood is beautiful, despite its small size; the liturgy is reverent, and the people apparently care about preserving the faith. Orthodoxy is a faith defended and lived by the people, not guarded by an elite in Moscow or Istanbul (sorry, the Turks changed the name; walls lose to artillery every time), islands of truth in the midst of a Church overrun with heresy. Now, it may be that in the “old country,” Orthodoxy has the same problems as Catholicism has here. I do not know. What I do know is that I want to raise my children in a Church that teaches the pure and holy truth of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church looks great on paper, but I cannot help but fear it will not last.

“But the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church!” some may protest, and I agree. As a non-Catholic, however, I am not yet convinced that passage applies to the (Roman) Catholic Church. It could be that the Catholic Church will be like the Anglican Communion, slowly falling into heresy, with small pockets of resistance holding out until they finally pass away. As the orthodox Anglicans are jumping ship to join the Catholic Church, perhaps someday the orthodox Catholics will jump ship to become Orthodox?

Then again, the Catholic Church has been through worse, so perhaps it will pull through and come out stronger on the other side. What do you all think?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I will have to say no, the Catholic Church will not go the way of the Protestant mainline churches. While theological liberalism abounds at some lower levels, like laity and priests, it doesn’t seem to hold a lot of sway with the pope or the top leadership in the Church. It would have to penetrate that far up the hierarchy to risk replacing orthodox theology. It has never been able to do that. Do you think it is plausible?

I don’t know where you live but also consider that while many Catholics in the West are lukewarm or liberal, that is not the case in places where the Church is strong and growing, e.g. the Global South. I know that doesn’t have much practical value but it should help dispel any concerns about Western liberals, a dying breed, taking over the global Catholic Church.

Have you had any luck locating a good orthodox Catholic parish near you? Unless logistics is an issue, you don’t have to attend the nearest parish.

As far Catholics jumping ship, I think it is far more likely that it will be liberal Catholics jumping ship for liberal Protestant churches. They seem to be the most disgruntled and I think that is precisely because they know they have no hope of ever seeing one their own occupy the See of St. Peter.

 

[pablope]

As the topic says.

I am attempting to throw myself back into the messy business of finding the Church, a worthy endeavor, but one which entails all sorts of stress and controversy.

“But the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church!” some may protest, and I agree. As a non-Catholic, however, I am not yet convinced that passage applies to the (Roman) Catholic Church. It could be that the Catholic Church will be like the Anglican Communion, slowly falling into heresy, with small pockets of resistance holding out until they finally pass away. As the orthodox Anglicans are jumping ship to join the Catholic Church, perhaps someday the orthodox Catholics will jump ship to become Orthodox?

Then again, the Catholic Church has been through worse, so perhaps it will pull through and come out stronger on the other side. What do you all think?

The vision of Pope Leo XIII:

Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere. When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices - two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord:
“I can destroy your Church.”

The gentle voice of Our Lord:
“You can? Then go ahead and do so.”

Satan:
“To do so, I need more time and more power.”

Our Lord:
"How much time? How much power?

Satan:
“75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those
who will give themselves over to my service.”

Our Lord:
“You have the time, you will have the power.
Do with them what you will.”

Do you think Satan has succeeded?

Jesus promised the gates of hell shall not prevail over it. So now, the Anglicans are coming over. Soon, I read in another post, some Lutherans are petitioning for something similar to the Anglicans for the them to come or restore full communion with the CC.

I think, IMHO, the CC will outlast everyone.

 

[benidict]

If the Lord waits another 10000 years to return, the Church will still be here waiting for him. Many of these denominations you now see will lie in the dust bin of history as a foot note. The Church will stand firm. Many of these contemporary ways of doing things will also fade into non existence. Fluff cannot stand. Only truth. The Church will continue to face challenges and a Final Firey Trial. But in the end, Christ will reign supreme, and the gates of hell will not prevail. Peace

 

[MartinJordan]

The Church will remain standing till the Son Of Man returns. The others mostly will not because there are too many watering down the teachings to fit the secular world’s obsession with non-spiritual fluff.

MJ

 

[ProVobis]

However, I do not live on the Internet, my vast amount of time on the computer notwithstanding, so I must attend mass at a real Catholic church in the real world. And real Catholic churches in the real world are, as the title suggests, going the way of the Protestant mainline. Now, they are not all doing this, but enough of them are for it to be a source of alarm. Instead of a towering Gothic cathedral, with incense and chant, a bit of Latin, and an orthodox homily, we are more likely to find a “Christian community in the Catholic tradition,” where the theology of the priest and laity alike is indistinguishable from that of the Episcopal church down the street, the art and architecture are stripped of any majesty or beauty, and communion is served by a row of thirty EMHC’s. If we can make it through RCIA with our faith intact, perhaps we can be orthodox members of an unorthodox parish, but it is still a bit depressing.

It does appear that way. Seems like even Anglicans recognized this back in 1972 when a few of them actually petitioned the Pope to preserve the Latin Mass for Catholics. (The Agatha Christie Indult.) Catholics did seem to lose their identity when the Friday meat ban was removed, were able to use their “consciences” in moral matters, confessions became rarer and rarer, the liturgy seemed to be nothing more than a meal, Protestant music found its way into the Church, communion in hand, etc. etc. Even Sunday attendance seems to be optional amongst 75% of Catholics.

However this tendency doesn’t seem to be that prevalent in Poland and in the East and in Asia. Perhaps it’s the Germanic languages (including English itself) that seem to be the culprits, being the main tool of the Reformers 400 years ago, but then South America now seems to be also loaded with ex-Catholics, who by the way have now formed the leading denomination in the U.S. as well. While we cheer when we hear a few converts to Catholicism, the statitics show that this barely makes up for the mass exodus of Catholics back in the 60’s and 70’s. And I share your sentiments. We need (at least) Latin, and not retranslations and reinforcement of the vernacular, to return more fully to a more universal liturgy so that we can recognize ourselves as Catholic again. The all-vernacular just doesn’t seem to work and only creates divisions.

 

[beth40n2]

Those of us who you mention who are on the internet, watching EWTN etc, it is our job to evangelize and catechise those around us.

My parish is a small country church and is very spirit filled. We have a lot of people who know their faith and we are teaching it to the next generation. Sure, we have some who come to mass out of obligation, and some that barely show up. I am a convert who is also a Director of Religious Education, and on my watch the next generation will not grow up without the faith. I have many spirit filled teachers, many of us grandparents doing the teaching, but we are not going to see the next generation not slide away into protestantism. Apologetics is something we teach in High School along with Theology of the Body. I pray the will bless the work we are doing.

 

[ChadS]

I think you are romanticizing the Orthodox to a degree they don’t really deserve. They too have priest shortage just like Catholics and many of the mainline Protestants. Their youth have fallen away and older adults have stopped coming to Divine Liturgy. Their externals of worship are indeed very beautiful, but their members have the exact same problems and issues as any Catholic church in the U.S. does.

Also, and this may not be exactly the same in the U.S., but many of the Orthodox churches are extremely ethnocentric. They’re all technically in communion with each other, but the members of the various churches won’t go to each others churches and they have various dioceses that overlap each other.

When trying to decide where to go, don’t let beauty of the externals lead you into something that has the same issues and seems superior to the local Catholic churches. Maybe you can find a Catholic church in the area that has some of what you are looking for. Not every Catholic church is a box-shaped building with all the statues removed. There are still a lot that have beautiful liturgies and orthodox homilies along with faithful pastors.

ChadS

 

[Cat]

I think you are romanticizing the Orthodox to a degree they don’t really deserve. They too have priest shortage just like Catholics and many of the mainline Protestants. Their youth have fallen away and older adults have stopped coming to Divine Liturgy. Their externals of worship are indeed very beautiful, but their members have the exact same problems and issues as any Catholic church in the U.S. does.

Also, and this may not be exactly the same in the U.S., but many of the Orthodox churches are extremely ethnocentric. They’re all technically in communion with each other, but the members of the various churches won’t go to each others churches and they have various dioceses that overlap each other.

When trying to decide where to go, don’t let beauty of the externals lead you into something that has the same issues and seems superior to the local Catholic churches. Maybe you can find a Catholic church in the area that has some of what you are looking for. Not every Catholic church is a box-shaped building with all the statues removed. There are still a lot that have beautiful liturgies and orthodox homilies along with faithful pastors.

ChadS

I agree with this.

Our parish has contemporary architecture with very few statues or other works of art. Our OF Masses are very simple. Although we have a beautiful pipe organ and competent organist, our music is nothing to get excited about. And our priests are excellent men of faith, but they won’t win any prizes at an oratory competition. And when you glance at the 500 people (or more) who attend each of the Sunday Masses, you won’t get an initial impression of deep spirituality.

But we need to be careful about looking merely at externals. The priest who was involved with designing our church building was a champion for Christ and Catholicism, and had the heart of an evangelist. (To this day, he is still described with admiration by Protestants and Catholics alike in our city.) He designed all kinds of Gospel messages into the architecture for those who look for them. To this day, the building still silently preaches the Gospel to the city.

The simple OF Masses are quiet and liturgically-correct, and you won’t hear any heretical or schismatic teachings, or liberal theology or politics. In fact, you will often hear denouncements of abortion, contraception, homosexual practices, abuse of children, divorce, and other sins–even when people stand up and walk out, our priests keep preaching the same stalwart message. You will hear solid Catholic theology taught. Most importantly, you will see that the Sacraments are offered with reverence and respect.

Our music isn’t glorious and often the singers and players are rather unpolished, but the songs are theologically-correct and pleasant, and the people who present it love music and love Jesus Christ. This isn’t a “performer’s parish.” So what? If you want professional-sounding music, go to the megachurch (10,000 people each Sunday) a few blocks down the road.

And most important, many of the people in our parish are passionate about their relationship with Jesus Christ and His Church. We have a 24/7 Adoration Chapel, and often it is full of people adoring the Lord. Many of the parishioners are involved in various ministries in and out of the church building. There are several Bible studies available, and classes for those wishing to learn about God, the Bible, the Church, the Sacraments, etc. There are also many social groups for those looking for Christian fellowship.

Of course there are plenty of lukewarm people in the parish who are only at Mass out of obligation or fear of hell or fear of parents. That will happen in any church of any denomination. Don’t look at these people, just pray for them. Many of them will eventually experience a “conversion” and start living a full Christian life.

So my suggestion to the OP is to dig deeper and not dismiss a parish simply because of appearances. Like God looked at David’s heart, the OP should try to look at the “heart” of any parish that he visits.

 

[ChadS]

I agree with this.

Our parish has contemporary architecture with very few statues or other works of art. Our OF Masses are very simple. Although we have a beautiful pipe organ and competent organist, our music is nothing to get excited about. And our priests are excellent men of faith, but they won’t win any prizes at an oratory competition. And when you glance at the 500 people (or more) who attend each of the Sunday Masses, you won’t get an initial impression of deep spirituality.

Most priests and even most ministers in Protestant denominations won’t win awards for their oratory skills. Too often I seem to hear complainst about pastors giving boring or dry homilies and wishing they could be more like the Fr. Pacwas and Fr. Corapis out there. We should remember that these guys are popular and on tv because they have the skills and the gifts that translate well to delivering their messages. They’re on tv because they draw in viewers and can run successful ministries. The average parish priest probably can’t do that and wouldn’t want to. But perhaps their gifts lie elsewhere instead of being a good orator. I guess we should see them for that even if their homilies are dry and sometimes uninspiring.

ChadS

 

[ohioszo]

Don’t be mislead by the folk who are encouraging a return to pre-Vatican II form.

One must have the Gospel in one’s heart, and, that is what happens by hearing the readings, the Gospel and the homily, at Mass. We must attend Mass every Sunday to give God his due attention in our lives. Receiving the Blessed Sacrament is something you have not done, and, one sees with the eyes of Faith. The Church takes care of its flock. Yes, the church is adapting to the needs of the Faithful. We have a new church building, handicapped accessible, large area for extending seating and gathering, and room for fellowship after Masses and funerals, meetings. All of these things were relegated to school auditoriums or sidewalks before. We hang our coats up even! The Priests love our parish. We have 10-11 EMHC’s who serve Holy Communion with the Bishop’s permission, and as an aid to the one or two Priests and Deacons. These EMHC’s do not have to be religious nuns or brothers, but, they need to be called and to lead their lives without scandal (see St. Paul.) I think that your question is rather devilish. What did the early Christians die for? I think of those martyrs when people complain about the Church. We have it the way that they wished. A Christian community, that welcomes people, shares their goods, prays for each other, and receives the Bread of Life, and hears Word of God, has the joy of the Holy Spirit working amongst them. I’m not sure what else to say but that you are finding a dissension that isn’t there amongst the Faithful, who are the backbone of parishes, but is reported on by some online who are not. By their works you will know them. I happen to be a EMHC. I do not insert my personality into the serving of Holy Communion, being humble, clean, dressed appropriately and showing up when needed is all that is required at the moment. Taking on other volunteerism duties is requested. Adoration is expected. If Christianity ever is persecuted to the extent that it was in Roman times, we must expect to be martyred. So, one must live in order to be convicted of being a Christian. We are grateful to live in America, where freedom of religion exists as a right. Still, that may give people a false sense of security. The right to organize is being taken away from some people, and, shockingly, EWTN reports on it as if it was something perfectly fine to do. So don’t accept everything that EWTN etal. say about the world, have another outlet like American Catholic Magazine, which, I guess, one online group has listed as not acceptable. How creepy is that to not be able to have the freedom to think! Certainly, that is against the Holy Spirit!

 

[ProVobis]

So don’t accept everything that EWTN etal. say about the world, have another outlet like **American Catholic **Magazine, which, I guess, one online group has listed as not acceptable. How creepy is that to not be able to have the freedom to think! Certainly, that is against the Holy Spirit!

Why does the label American Catholic seem like another denomination to me?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Don’t be mislead by the folk who are encouraging a return to pre-Vatican II form.

One must have the Gospel in one’s heart, and, that is what happens by hearing the readings, the Gospel and the homily, at Mass. We must attend Mass every Sunday to give God his due attention in our lives. Receiving the Blessed Sacrament is something you have not done, and, one sees with the eyes of Faith. The Church takes care of its flock. Yes, the church is adapting to the needs of the Faithful. We have a new church building, handicapped accessible, large area for extending seating and gathering, and room for fellowship after Masses and funerals, meetings. All of these things were relegated to school auditoriums or sidewalks before. We hang our coats up even! The Priests love our parish. We have 10-11 EMHC’s who serve Holy Communion with the Bishop’s permission, and as an aid to the one or two Priests and Deacons. These EMHC’s do not have to be religious nuns or brothers, but, they need to be called and to lead their lives without scandal (see St. Paul.) I think that your question is rather devilish. What did the early Christians die for? I think of those martyrs when people complain about the Church. We have it the way that they wished. A Christian community, that welcomes people, shares their goods, prays for each other, and receives the Bread of Life, and hears Word of God, has the joy of the Holy Spirit working amongst them. I’m not sure what else to say but that you are finding a dissension that isn’t there amongst the Faithful, who are the backbone of parishes, but is reported on by some online who are not. By their works you will know them. I happen to be a EMHC. I do not insert my personality into the serving of Holy Communion, being humble, clean, dressed appropriately and showing up when needed is all that is required at the moment. Taking on other volunteerism duties is requested. Adoration is expected. If Christianity ever is persecuted to the extent that it was in Roman times, we must expect to be martyred. So, one must live in order to be convicted of being a Christian. We are grateful to live in America, where freedom of religion exists as a right. Still, that may give people a false sense of security. The right to organize is being taken away from some people, and, shockingly, EWTN reports on it as if it was something perfectly fine to do. So don’t accept everything that EWTN etal. say about the world, have another outlet like American Catholic Magazine, which, I guess, one online group has listed as not acceptable. How creepy is that to not be able to have the freedom to think! Certainly, that is against the Holy Spirit!

Just to let you know, I only take the Eucharis from a priest. There is no going back from VII, the Church is never to be separated from her past where the Saints belongs to it. there is an attempt today by those who dont like the Church teachings to change and make a new Church. the Holy Father spoke about this already. some laity wants to make their own Church where they can have have their authority ove it. laity is to come humble to the Church thanking God for allowing them into His Church.

 

[Miss_PG]

Iambic:

I encourage you to be strong and persevere in your study of the Catholic faith. The Church will always be under attack from without and within but it will remain faithful to the end of time. That’s not to say that there won’t be “casualties” from time to time and place to place. I wish I could guarantee that you would never find heresy or liturgical abuses but I can’t do that. Do your best to find a good parish. Eastern Catholic parishes (Byzantine, Melkite, etc.) might be a good option for you if there are any in your area.

You are in my prayers.

PG

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I thank you all for your kind and encouraging words. I must confess that much of my fear about the state of the Catholic Church comes from online complaints, rather than personal experience, so it is nice to see others who are more optimistic.

My first Catholic mass was in a small multi-use chapel on an American base in Baghdad, Iraq. There was nothing special about the building, and there was no pipe organ or choir of monks, but there was a quiet dignity to the service. I was very much in awe, and I went back when I could. When I returned to the United States, I began attending the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, in Savannah, Georgia, a beautiful church with beautiful music and art. It was there I attended an orthodox RCIA class for a time.

It was only after encountering mass elsewhere, and discovering that it was not all the calm solemnity of my first mass, or the glorious majesty of the masses in Savannah, that I began to experience some level of disillusionment. That, coupled with the tales of what has happened since that council [emphasis copied from so many others], has worried me. Attending an Anglican service in Dublin in an old medieval church (Christ Church Cathedral), and seeing how beautiful that service was, in contrast, did not help, either.

I worry that my wife and I will attend an RCIA class where we will not be taught the teaching of the Church, and I, ignorant layman that I am, will have to teach her what the Catholic Church really teaches. I worry that my daughter will be taught in CCD that someday there will be female priests and that the Church is fallible. I worry that my daughter could someday attend a Catholic university, such as Seattle University, that offered internships at Planned Parenthood. I worry that, if I have a son someday who wants to become a priest, he will attend a seminary where he will come out with more doubts and confusion than when he entered.

I don’t think these are unreasonable worries. My Protestant church is full of lapsed Catholics who left the Church because they never learned the faith. I don’t want that to happen to my children or grandchildren.

I love the idea of the Catholic Church. I love chivalry and the Middle Ages. I love reading Tolkien and Chesterton. I admire the moral stands laid out in official Church teaching. I want to be Catholic. I just hope the Church I want to enter actually exists and will continue to exist.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I see that according to your profile you live in the Tacoma area. The good news is that the FSSP has opened a parish in nearby Seattle: northamericanmartyrs.org/ You might consider contacting them about being received into the Church. I very much doubt you’d have to worry about liberalism in any of their parish programs and ministries. Just good, solid, orthodox Catholicism.

And don’t worry about your children. There are still plenty of good, orthodox Catholic universities and seminaries in this country. Just do some research and of course we are always here to help.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I thank you all for your kind and encouraging words. I must confess that much of my fear about the state of the Catholic Church comes from online complaints, rather than personal experience, so it is nice to see others who are more optimistic.

My first Catholic mass was in a small multi-use chapel on an American base in Baghdad, Iraq. There was nothing special about the building, and there was no pipe organ or choir of monks, but there was a quiet dignity to the service. I was very much in awe, and I went back when I could. When I returned to the United States, I began attending the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, in Savannah, Georgia, a beautiful church with beautiful music and art. It was there I attended an orthodox RCIA class for a time.

It was only after encountering mass elsewhere, and discovering that it was not all the calm solemnity of my first mass, or the glorious majesty of the masses in Savannah, that I began to experience some level of disillusionment. That, coupled with the tales of what has happened since that council [emphasis copied from so many others], has worried me. Attending an Anglican service in Dublin in an old medieval church (Christ Church Cathedral), and seeing how beautiful that service was, in contrast, did not help, either.

I worry that my wife and I will attend an RCIA class where we will not be taught the teaching of the Church, and I, ignorant layman that I am, will have to teach her what the Catholic Church really teaches. I worry that my daughter will be taught in CCD that someday there will be female priests and that the Church is fallible. I worry that my daughter could someday attend a Catholic university, such as Seattle University, that offered internships at Planned Parenthood. I worry that, if I have a son someday who wants to become a priest, he will attend a seminary where he will come out with more doubts and confusion than when he entered.

I don’t think these are unreasonable worries. My Protestant church is full of lapsed Catholics who left the Church because they never learned the faith. I don’t want that to happen to my children or grandchildren.

I love the idea of the Catholic Church. I love chivalry and the Middle Ages. I love reading Tolkien and Chesterton. I admire the moral stands laid out in official Church teaching. I want to be Catholic. I just hope the Church I want to enter actually exists and will continue to exist.

Blessings to you. Some people live the delusion that they can do things better than God. If God built His Church, He also provided how He wants her to be. Today, our society believes that they can do all things better, but we know without God is all worthless. Our society is confused and unless they return to God’s ways, it will only get worse. Thank God, we have the Church to run to when the society is trying to lead the people away from God.

 

[StevieD]

I am convinced that there is about to be great ‘falling away’ from the Church. The election of one more Pope who refuses to change 2,000 years of teaching will cause a large number of the ‘progessives’ to leave, either to join the Episcopalians or to form some form of ‘Progressive Catholic Church’, probably based in the US. The fact that any Pope bending to the will of the progressives would render the Church’s claims to be the Church founded by Jesus to be a joke seems to escape them. If the Church apes the Episcopalians, it would appear to many to make **them **the Church Jesus founded!

You should be aware that the Greek Orthodox now permits contraception ‘for serious reasons’ which is exactly the wording of the Anglican resolution on the topic back in the 1930’s. Of course no Anglican mentions ‘serious reasons’ now nor will any GOC priest in a few years time, it is the thin end of a very wide wedge.

There will always be Catholics faithful to the Magisterium, comparatively few in number possibly, and there will always be a reliable Magisterium because Jesus promised it would be so. Forget the music, forget the admitted beauty of some non-Catholic liturgy. There is nothing more beautiful than truth, we must find it and cling doggedly to it through thick and thin, better and worse, whatever others may do.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I will have to say no, the Catholic Church will not go the way of the Protestant mainline churches. While theological liberalism abounds at some lower levels, like laity and priests, it doesn’t seem to hold a lot of sway with the pope or the top leadership in the Church. It would have to penetrate that far up the hierarchy to risk replacing orthodox theology. It has never been able to do that. Do you think it is plausible?

I don’t know where you live but also consider that while many Catholics in the West are lukewarm or liberal, that is not the case in places where the Church is strong and growing, e.g. the Global South. I know that doesn’t have much practical value but it should help dispel any concerns about Western liberals, a dying breed, taking over the global Catholic Church.

Have you had any luck locating a good orthodox Catholic parish near you? Unless logistics is an issue, you don’t have to attend the nearest parish.

As far Catholics jumping ship, I think it is far more likely that it will be liberal Catholics jumping ship for liberal Protestant churches. They seem to be the most disgruntled and I think that is precisely because they know they have no hope of ever seeing one their own occupy the See of St. Peter.

I agree. And I can say that where I live there are both good (orthodox) and bad (quasi-Anglican) Catholic parishes and one does not need to attend the closest parish church if it comes to that being the concern. And I have found that among the newer priests coming out of seminary, there seems to be a decided turn away from some of the nonsense and a return to the traditions (both “t” and “T”) upon which the Church has continued through the centuries. My hope is in Christ, and it is bouyed by the younger priests who seem eager to reclaim true Catholic heritage from the experiments of the 70s and 80s.

Peace,
Rober

 

[Harpazo]

As the topic says.

I am attempting to throw myself back into the messy business of finding the Church, a worthy endeavor, but one which entails all sorts of stress and controversy.

I am in the odd position of attending a Protestant church, while sitting on the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I admire the attempt at (small ‘o’) orthodoxy by my Protestant church, and I have friends there, but were it not for my wife’s love of the church, I would likely have none of it, choosing instead to alternate my Sundays between the local Catholic and Orthodox houses of worship. However, as any married converts or seekers know, the search for the Church becomes much more complicated when family is involved.

Since family is involved, I am very reluctant to pull my family away from a church that believes in the Bible, upholds traditional Christian morality (aside from the usual Protestant divorce and contraception exceptions), and possesses an evangelical zeal, only to take them somewhere that does not have these good qualities.

The difficulty is that I see two Catholicisms. On the Internet, I can go to Catholic Answers, EWTN, InsideCatholic, the National Catholic Register, and a host of blogs maintained by orthodox, faithful Catholics. These Catholics hold to the true faith, they prefer and are somehow able to find reverent liturgies, and they defend the teachings of the Church.

However, I do not live on the Internet, my vast amount of time on the computer notwithstanding, so I must attend mass at a real Catholic church in the real world. And real Catholic churches in the real world are, as the title suggests, going the way of the Protestant mainline. Now, they are not all doing this, but enough of them are for it to be a source of alarm. Instead of a towering Gothic cathedral, with incense and chant, a bit of Latin, and an orthodox homily, we are more likely to find a “Christian community in the Catholic tradition,” where the theology of the priest and laity alike is indistinguishable from that of the Episcopal church down the street, the art and architecture are stripped of any majesty or beauty, and communion is served by a row of thirty EMHC’s. If we can make it through RCIA with our faith intact, perhaps we can be orthodox members of an unorthodox parish, but it is still a bit depressing.

By contrast, the Orthodox church in our neighborhood is beautiful, despite its small size; the liturgy is reverent, and the people apparently care about preserving the faith. Orthodoxy is a faith defended and lived by the people, not guarded by an elite in Moscow or Istanbul (sorry, the Turks changed the name; walls lose to artillery every time), islands of truth in the midst of a Church overrun with heresy. Now, it may be that in the “old country,” Orthodoxy has the same problems as Catholicism has here. I do not know. What I do know is that I want to raise my children in a Church that teaches the pure and holy truth of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church looks great on paper, but I cannot help but fear it will not last.

“But the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church!” some may protest, and I agree. As a non-Catholic, however, I am not yet convinced that passage applies to the (Roman) Catholic Church. It could be that the Catholic Church will be like the Anglican Communion, slowly falling into heresy, with small pockets of resistance holding out until they finally pass away. As the orthodox Anglicans are jumping ship to join the Catholic Church, perhaps someday the orthodox Catholics will jump ship to become Orthodox?

Then again, the Catholic Church has been through worse, so perhaps it will pull through and come out stronger on the other side. What do you all think?

I can relate to just about all you have written here. The reasons you outlined are why I became Orthodox. I would look to the Vincentian Canon and immediately find Orthodoxy as the only living church to be able to fulfill it.

(3) Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality *, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.

I never saw any notion of “development of doctrine” in there and if you look at the various heresies, you will see that those heretics were trying to develop things further than what had been revealed.

But ultimately, this is something that will take much more than some conversations from some random folks on the Internet. My God bless you on your journey.

In Christ,
Andrew