Will the Church abolish mandatory celibacy?

[Credo_in_Deum]

How would it make him a worse husband? Anyone called to the priesthood is going to be an outward-directed person (as opposed to a selfish or self centered person). Being other-directed is what makes a good husband (Men, love your wives as Christ loved the Church, if you want a paraphrase),=.

Sacrifice to women? As opposed to all the other sacrifices they might be valled to, should they marry someone elese? Perhaps you are perceiving some special type of sacrifice; please elucidate.

IMHO I cannot see being married as being the ideal situation for a priest because he would have to put the needs of one family over the needs of the other. A priest is on call, ready for the needs of his flock. Dad is missing family functions due to marriages, counseling appointments, visiting the sick, performing last rites, etc. etc. Husband is missing important meetings with their spouse for the same reasons. The married priest is trying to juggle his personal family with his spiritual family, which at times can create a conflict. If being single makes life simple, in that the priest can direct his full attention towards his flock, then I believe being single would be an ideal situation for a priest.

Being other-directed is what makes a good husband (Men, love your wives as Christ loved the Church, if you want a paraphrase),=.

Being “other-directed” or selfless does make someone a good husband, a good priest, and a good religious; however, you have not shown how this makes a good married priest. The quote you gave doesn’t help you because a priest is an Alter Christus and thus lays down his life for the entire Church! His care is for the souls of everyone and he must be at their service. Here Paul is telling Husbands to imitate this type of selfless behavior in their marriages. Essentially to love their wives and family as a priest loves the Church. To lay down their lives and to put the needs of their family above their own needs! Yet can a married priest put the needs of his family above the needs of his flock? Is he not Fr. to both? Even the scriptures allude to idea that being single is the ideal position for religious.

 

[CarolSue]

The Church offers the choice now, as married men may enter seminary in the Eastern rites as it is. .

Just a point of clarification: One doesn’t get the choice to change rites in order to enter an Eastern rite seminary.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

It is possible but unlikely. Most priest I know do not want the change is this discipline. Unless it could be shown that it would somehow have a long term benefit to the mother church, no change in the near future.

actually, most priests I have discussed the matter with in private have either said they were in favour, or evaded the discussion. Very few actually actively argued for the status quo.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

IMHO I cannot see being married as being the ideal situation for a priest because he would have to put the needs of one family over the needs of the other. A priest is on call, ready for the needs of his flock. Dad is missing family functions due to marriages, counseling appointments, visiting the sick, performing last rites, etc. etc. Husband is missing important meetings with their spouse for the same reasons. The married priest is trying to juggle his personal family with his spiritual family, which at times can create a conflict. If being single makes life simple, in that the priest can direct his full attention towards his flock, then I believe being single would be an ideal situation for a priest.

You can argue in the same way about a village doctor for example, or a corporate executive or a political leader. There are many people out there who cannot always leave their work at work but effectively have to be on standby all the time, and this can mean tough decisions concerning priorities of work versus family.

 

[thistle]

IMHO I cannot see being married as being the ideal situation for a priest because he would have to put the needs of one family over the needs of the other. A priest is on call, ready for the needs of his flock. Dad is missing family functions due to marriages, counseling appointments, visiting the sick, performing last rites, etc. etc. Husband is missing important meetings with their spouse for the same reasons. The married priest is trying to juggle his personal family with his spiritual family, which at times can create a conflict. If being single makes life simple, in that the priest can direct his full attention towards his flock, then I believe being single would be an ideal situation for a priest.

Being “other-directed” or selfless does make someone a good husband, a good priest, and a good religious; however, you have not shown how this makes a good married priest. The quote you gave doesn’t help you because a priest is an Alter Christus and thus lays down his life for the entire Church! His care is for the souls of everyone and he must be at their service. Here Paul is telling Husbands to imitate this type of selfless behavior in their marriages. Essentially to love their wives and family as a priest loves the Church. To lay down their lives and to put the needs of their family above their own needs! Yet can a married priest put the needs of his family above the needs of his flock? Is he not Fr. to both? Even the scriptures allude to idea that being single is the ideal position for religious.

As the Eastern Catholic Churches permit married men to become priests and the Latin Church has welcomed married men (priests converting) from Church of England, for example, and ordain them as Catholic priests, the Church obviously disagrees with your views on this matter.

 

[johnthebaptist2]

IMHO I cannot see being married as being the ideal situation for a priest because he would have to put the needs of one family over the needs of the other. A priest is on call, ready for the needs of his flock. Dad is missing family functions due to marriages, counseling appointments, visiting the sick, performing last rites, etc. etc. Husband is missing important meetings with their spouse for the same reasons. The married priest is trying to juggle his personal family with his spiritual family, which at times can create a conflict. If being single makes life simple, in that the priest can direct his full attention towards his flock, then I believe being single would be an ideal situation for a priest.

Being “other-directed” or selfless does make someone a good husband, a good priest, and a good religious; however, you have not shown how this makes a good married priest. The quote you gave doesn’t help you because a priest is an Alter Christus and thus lays down his life for the entire Church! His care is for the souls of everyone and he must be at their service. Here Paul is telling Husbands to imitate this type of selfless behavior in their marriages. Essentially to love their wives and family as a priest loves the Church. To lay down their lives and to put the needs of their family above their own needs! Yet can a married priest put the needs of his family above the needs of his flock? Is he not Fr. to both? Even the scriptures allude to idea that being single is the ideal position for religious.

You have said it the right way,a priest that is married would have hard time keeping his flock together,and his family,because his first obligation,is to serve God,before his family,and most priest have a great load to carry now ,keeping his church together,and than trying to keep his family together,well that why a priest is better to be single,than he can give his hold attention to his people of his Parish.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

As the Eastern Catholic Churches permit married men to become priests and the Latin Church has welcomed married men (priests converting) from Church of England, for example, and ordain them as Catholic priests, the Church obviously disagrees with your views on this matter.

Are you sure, because my stance isn’t against married men becoming priests, it’s against the idea that being a married priest is on par with being a priest who is single. It seems logical to think a priest would have fewer conflicts with fulfilling his priestly duties if he were single. I can’t see the Church disagreeing with this view, since it wouldn’t really make sense or explain why the Church would institute celibacy as a vow if they thought otherwise. Last time I checked celibacy was so a priest could attain greater perfection and imitation of Christ. One would think that men who aspire to the priesthood would want to do everything they could to imitate Christ. Plus the fact that celibacy is the norm for priests would indicate I’m in agreement with the Church on the belief that a single man who wants to remain celibate is the preferred state of being for those discerning the priesthood.

Matthew 19:27-29

Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

 

[Brendan_64]

You can argue in the same way about a village doctor for example, or a corporate executive or a political leader. There are many people out there who cannot always leave their work at work but effectively have to be on standby all the time, and this can mean tough decisions concerning priorities of work versus family.

The difference is that they can actually make decisions on such matters.

If a priest was up all night with one of his own children was ill (and his wife was away from home that night) and he gets an emergency call to administer the sacrament of the sick, what does he do? Does he leave his own child and go? Or does he try to phone around for another priest (which will take time)?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

It would be sad for people to take it that way. I’m sure there are some who will but that is not what is being implied.

In the Oriental Church, too, most illustrious Fathers bear witness to the excellence of Catholic celibacy. In this matter as in others there was harmony between the Latin and Oriental Churches where accurate discipline flourished. St. Epiphanius at the end of the fourth century tells us that celibacy applied even to the subdiaconate: “The Church does not on any account admit a man living in the wedded state and having children, even though he have only one wife, to the orders of deacon, priest, bishop or subdeacon; but only him whose wife be dead or who should abstain from the use of marriage; this is done in those places especially where the ecclesiastical canons are accurately followed.” [ST. EPIPHAN., *Advers. Haer. Panar., 59,4 (MIGNE, P. G., 41,1024)]

The Deacon of Edessa and Doctor of the Universal Church, well called the harp of the Holy Spirit, St. Ephraem, the Syrian, is particularly eloquent on this matter. Brev. Rom., 18 iun., lect. VI] In one of his poems, addressed to his friend the Bishop Abraham, he says: “Thou art true to thy name, Abraham, for thou also art the father of many: but because thou hast no wife as Abraham had Sara, behold thy flock is thy spouse. Bring up its children in thy truth; may they become to thee children of the spirit and sons of the promise that makes them heirs to Eden. O sweet fruit of chastity, in which the priesthood finds its delights . . . the horn of plenty flowed over and anointed thee, a hand rested on thee and chose thee out, the Church desired thee and held thee dear.” [ST. EPHRAEM, *Carmina Nisibaena, carm. XIX (ed. Bickel, p. 112)] and in another place: “It is not enough for the priest and the name of the priesthood, it is not enough, I say, for him who offers up the living body, to cleanse his soul and tongue and hand and make spotless his whole body; but he must at all times be absolutely and preeminently pure, because he is established as a mediator between God and the human race. May He be praised Who made His servants clean!” [ST. EPHRAEM, *Carmina Nisibaena, carm. XVIII (ibid.)] St. John Chrysostom affirms: “The priest must be so pure that, if he were to be lifted up and placed in the heavens themselves, he might take a place in the midst of the Angels.” [ST. JOHN CHRYSOST., *De sacerdotio, III, 4 (MIGNE, P. G., 48, 642)]
catholictradition.org/Priests/priests9.htm#HISTORY

 

[thistle]

Are you sure, because my stance isn’t against married men becoming priests, it’s against the idea that being a married priest is on par with being a priest who is single. It seems logical to think a priest would have fewer conflicts with fulfilling his priestly duties if he were single. I can’t see the Church disagreeing with this view, since it wouldn’t really make sense or explain why the Church would institute celibacy as a vow if they thought otherwise. Last time I checked celibacy was so a priest could attain greater perfection and imitation of Christ. One would think that men who aspire to the priesthood would want to do everything they could to imitate Christ. Plus the fact that celibacy is the norm for priests would indicate I’m in agreement with the Church on the belief that a single man who wants to remain celibate is the preferred state of being for those discerning the priesthood.

Matthew 19:27-29

Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

As the Church allows it it means they don’t agree that married priests are lesser than single priests so yes the Church disagrees with your view.

 

[Aramis]

IMHO I cannot see being married as being the ideal situation for a priest because he would have to put the needs of one family over the needs of the other. A priest is on call, ready for the needs of his flock. Dad is missing family functions due to marriages, counseling appointments, visiting the sick, performing last rites, etc. etc. Husband is missing important meetings with their spouse for the same reasons. The married priest is trying to juggle his personal family with his spiritual family, which at times can create a conflict. If being single makes life simple, in that the priest can direct his full attention towards his flock, then I believe being single would be an ideal situation for a priest.

Being “other-directed” or selfless does make someone a good husband, a good priest, and a good religious; however, you have not shown how this makes a good married priest. The quote you gave doesn’t help you because a priest is an Alter Christus and thus lays down his life for the entire Church! His care is for the souls of everyone and he must be at their service. Here Paul is telling Husbands to imitate this type of selfless behavior in their marriages. Essentially to love their wives and family as a priest loves the Church. To lay down their lives and to put the needs of their family above their own needs! Yet can a married priest put the needs of his family above the needs of his flock? Is he not Fr. to both? Even the scriptures allude to idea that being single is the ideal position for religious.

the line of horse hockey being spouted to support celibate only really is almost sinful in its simplistic and apparently willful misinformation.

My dad, a Roman Rite Deacon, made almost every family event. My mother actually missed more than Dad did. And she wasn’t even employed- she was a masters candidate.

Dad put in about the same amount of time between day job and cathedral deacon as did many pastors. Total about 55-70 hours per week.

Further, if the rectory and offices are in the same location, children of married priests have dad at hand a LOT more than I did, where Dad had a day job and a ministry.

There are two key elements to keep in mind: (1) traditionally, the Byzantine married clergy are not “one priest to a parish” - often, 2-4 priests in a parish of 200 families, and 3-8 for a parish of 600-800 families (at which point, it’s time to make a new parish as the building is too crowded for liturgy…). This was also true through the 10th C in the Roman tradition. (2) The Eastern Catholic Churches with married clergy, and their Orthodox counterparts, often had celibate clergy as well as married. A celibate secular cleric might live at the parish, and participate in family meals with his kin (down the road a bit) or with the other clerics’ families, sometimes in rotation. Moreover, the monastic clergy are all celibates, widowers, or very rarely, divorced men (whose ex-wives either gave permission, or had entered monastic life, or had been excommunicated). And to this day, a number of the Roman clergy are men with adult children… Rev. Fr. Eric Wiseman, (Archdiocese of Anchorage) for one.

 

[TimothyH]

the line of horse hockey being spouted to support celibate only really is almost sinful in its simplistic and apparently willful misinformation.

My dad, a Roman Rite Deacon, made almost every family event. My mother actually missed more than Dad did. And she wasn’t even employed- she was a masters candidate.

Dad put in about the same amount of time between day job and cathedral deacon as did many pastors. Total about 55-70 hours per week.

Further, if the rectory and offices are in the same location, children of married priests have dad at hand a LOT more than I did, where Dad had a day job and a ministry.

There are two key elements to keep in mind: (1) traditionally, the Byzantine married clergy are not “one priest to a parish” - often, 2-4 priests in a parish of 200 families, and 3-8 for a parish of 600-800 families (at which point, it’s time to make a new parish as the building is too crowded for liturgy…). This was also true through the 10th C in the Roman tradition. (2) The Eastern Catholic Churches with married clergy, and their Orthodox counterparts, often had celibate clergy as well as married. A celibate secular cleric might live at the parish, and participate in family meals with his kin (down the road a bit) or with the other clerics’ families, sometimes in rotation. Moreover, the monastic clergy are all celibates, widowers, or very rarely, divorced men (whose ex-wives either gave permission, or had entered monastic life, or had been excommunicated). And to this day, a number of the Roman clergy are men with adult children… Rev. Fr. Eric Wiseman, (Archdiocese of Anchorage) for one.

It is a shame that the other Eastern Catholics were chased off this thread because I had wanted to ask about living arrangements in the Eastern Churches. What you describe seems like a nice mix of married and celibate priests, and more of them. Thank you for posting this.

Are the priests given a rectory to live in or do they get a stipend for housing and make their own living arrangements?

-Tim-

 

[AndyP2010]

1 Timothy 3:1-7:

This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,
not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.
He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity;
for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?
He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil’s punishment.
He must also have a good reputation among outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, the devil’s trap.

emphasis added. It seems clear then that celibacy even for bishops is a discipline not doctrine. I wonder how many of our bishops have managed a house hold.

 

[otjm]

The difference is that they can actually make decisions on such matters.

If a priest was up all night with one of his own children was ill (and his wife was away from home that night) and he gets an emergency call to administer the sacrament of the sick, what does he do? Does he leave his own child and go? Or does he try to phone around for another priest (which will take time)?

Assuming he had enough sense to come in out of the rain, he already would have phoned another priest to cover for him, since that is what normal people do.

 

[AndyP2010]

Assuming he had enough sense to come in out of the rain, he already would have phoned another priest to cover for him, since that is what normal people do.

Good answer, it isn’t like celibate priest don’t get sick or anything.

 

[Mike30]

I think it needs to be pointed out that while the Eastern Churches and the Orthodox as well do allow married Priests they do not allow Priests to marry. A man can be ordained if he is already married, however if he is ordained and wants to then get married, it will not be allowed. Also, if a Priest is married and his wife dies he cannot re-marry. Maybe one of the Eastern could chime in if I am wrong, but I don’t believe that married Priests are allowed to become Bishops either…

So while celibacy is not quite the same in the Eastern Churches it is still a very, very big thing.

 

[White_Peony]

I like celibacy

 

[malphono]

Also, if a Priest is married and his wife dies he cannot re-marry.

Generally yes, but there is a rarely used exception, when there are small children involved. I don’t know of a case where this has actually be done, but it is theoretically possible.

Maybe one of the Eastern could chime in if I am wrong, but I don’t believe that married Priests are allowed to become Bishops either…

That’s right, but a widowed priest could, in theory, be elected bishop.

 

[Joe_5859]

The financial aspect of removing the celibacy requirement has to be considered. Providing for a priest, his wife, and their children is a far different kettle of fish than what the Church is on the hook for currently.

I think this is a great point that is often completely absent from discussions about priestly celibacy (at least, external discussions like this one). Catholics would have to increase their giving substantially in order to support a slew of married priests and their families.

That’s why I have trouble understanding it when people pitch the idea of married priests as though it would solve all problems in the Church.

 

[Brendan_64]

I think this is a great point that is often completely absent from discussions about priestly celibacy (at least, external discussions like this one). Catholics would have to increase their giving substantially in order to support a slew of married priests and their families.

That’s why I have trouble understanding it when people pitch the idea of married priests as though it would solve all problems in the Church.

The problem with the Church, in the UK anyway, is not the lack of cash to for priests, but a lack of priests. My own parish could afford two priests (we even have a very nice empty priest’s house) but we only have one priest (serving two church communities). We used to be two separate, self-sustaining parishes, but a lack of available priests in the diocese and not a lack of funding within the two parishes, meant that the two parishes had to be combined. A move which was very unpopular amongst the parishioners of both communities.

The major problem the Church has is not a lack of cash, or even a lack of parishioners, but a lack of priests to adequately serve the parishioners it currently has.