Will the Church abolish mandatory celibacy?

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I think this is a great point that is often completely absent from discussions about priestly celibacy (at least, external discussions like this one). Catholics would have to increase their giving substantially in order to support a slew of married priests and their families.

That’s why I have trouble understanding it when people pitch the idea of married priests as though it would solve all problems in the Church.
We have several married priests here (including at least one pastor of a large parish.) There has been no problem with regard to salaries, as far as I have heard. That pastor - with 5 grown children - is married to a physician and money does not seem to present a problem.
 
You’re lucky you’ve got a priest at all. Parishes are being merged left, right and centre, because of a supposed lack of priests.

However, think much of this is due to poor planning and deployment of resources by dioceses. If there is a university nearby, they will most likely have a Catholic priest assigned specifically to the university, saying no more than 2 or 3 public masses per week. And how many priests are employed to teach in schools, where a lay-person could take their place? Or carrying out administrative duties at diocesan headquarters, or in seminaries?

It seems to me that the Church (in the UK anyway) wants to maintain the current model of wastefully deploying priests, and then opting to reduce the number of parishes, rather than restructure and redeploy priests.
 
We have several married priests here (including at least one pastor of a large parish.) There has been no problem with regard to salaries, as far as I have heard. That pastor - with 5 grown children - is married to a physician and money does not seem to present a problem.
Yes, I guess we can just ask that men marry women with high paying jobs before entering seminary. 😉

I admit I don’t have any knowledge of larger financial trends of Catholic parishes. I simply mean that it would need to be discussed and looked into. It’s also probably much different having a handful of married priests than having a majority of married priests.

Not that finances are an insurmountable obstacle or should be the sole criterion for such a discussion. But it is one factor.

Of course, I don’t think this is likely to happen anytime soon, so it’s probably a moot point anyway. 😛
 
However, think much of this is due to poor planning and deployment of resources by dioceses. If there is a university nearby, they will most likely have a Catholic priest assigned specifically to the university, saying no more than 2 or 3 public masses per week. And how many priests are employed to teach in schools, where a lay-person could take their place? Or carrying out administrative duties at diocesan headquarters, or in seminaries?

It seems to me that the Church (in the UK anyway) wants to maintain the current model of wastefully deploying priests, and then opting to reduce the number of parishes, rather than restructure and redeploy priests.
I really don’t want to get into this tangential fray, but I have to say I don’t think most of that is either “due to poor planning” or “a wasteful deployment of priests.”

Sure, a layperson can teach, but should a priest who is talented as an educator be stifled? One has also to consider person and his talents.

Sure, a layperson can tend to diocesan affairs, but not in quite the same way as an ordained cleric. There are serious matters of canonical discipline to be considered.

As for seminaries and priestly formation, how is it possible that a layperson can substitute for a priest in that situation? To borrow a line from “Lost in Space” … does not compute.

In any case, most secular priests engaged in non-pastoral endeavors do, in fact, sign-on as “weekend assistants” at various nearby parishes to help with Masses etc. What else are they supposed to do?

In short, I fail to see the problem.
 
I really don’t want to get into this tangential fray, but I have to say I don’t think most of that is either “due to poor planning” or “a wasteful deployment of priests.”

Sure, a layperson can tend to diocesan affairs, but not in quite the same way as an ordained cleric. There are serious matters of canonical discipline to be considered.

As for seminaries and priestly formation, how is it possible that a layperson can substitute for a priest in that situation?
Let’s take religious communities out of this equation. Religious communities have no moral or canonical obligation to keep parishes going. Most were not founded to run parishes and many have very few priests and more brothers.

Now that you have taken these men out of the equation, you’re left with 60% of priests in the Latin Church. The other 40% belong to religious communities. We just took them out of the equation.

Now, these 60% are not all diocesan priests. They are all secular priests, but many of them belong to societies. Drop another 20%. Societies have no moral or canonical obligation to provide priests for parishes. That’s not what societies of apostolic life do.

Before we go forward, there may be some people thinking that the pope or someone in the Vatican should force priests who are religious or members of societies to serve in parishes rather than serve in communications, administration, retreat houses, on the streets or homeless shelters. The answer is simple. The pope cannot do that without rewriting the constitutions and rules that govern these institutes. Can you imagine a pope rewriting the Rule of St. Benedict, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Albert, St. John de Matha, St. Jose Maria Escriva, Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, etc. You get the picture. All of these founders prohibited parish work The focus was very specific and it was not parish. If you change their focus to parish work, you have to change their daily life to fit the parish. It’s not something that any pope would even consider. Besides, what pope wants to take on someone like St. Benedict or St. Francis?

No we are down to 40% of our priests being diocesan priests. These men are secular Catholics. They are not consecrated men. They have no moral or canonical obligation to give up their work in the classroom, retreat house, hospital, pregnancy center, homeless shelter, or other apostolate. This was put to the test and the precedent was proven two years ago when the Bishop of Amarillo recalled Fr. Frank Pavone and the Vatican ruled that Fr. Frank’s apostolate was important enough to sacrifice a parish or two.

There is a correction is perception that I’d like to make. To the person who said that priests should be teaching in the seminary. That’s not true. Courses in the seminary are like courses at any graduate school. You have Scripture, Canon Law, Liturgy, Church History, Ecclesiology, Sacramentology, Pastoral Counseling, Systematic Theology, Church Social Teaching, and more. In order to grant a degree, your professors must meet the requirements of the accrediting organization. The organization does not care if the professor is a priest. He can be a priest, but if he’s not a scholar in Church History, he cannot teach it. If he does, the students will not receive credit. No credit = no degree. No degree = no ordination.

Professors at the seminary are like any other graduate school. They are experts in their field. I teach and I’m not a priest. I teach a one year course in Evangelium Vitae. There is no priest in our region who is an expert in that field. You must have a master’s plus 30 to teach it. I have an STD. That’s the way this works.

The same is true for the chancery. Priests are not assigned to the chancery because they are priests. There are some posts that must be occupied by a priest or a deacon. There are many other posts that do not require a priest, but do require an expert in a particular area. I know a priest who works in a chancery and he’s an expert in corporate administration. Why pay a layman $80,000.00 when you can hire a priest? Lay people have families. They need competitive salaries, medical insurance, retirement insurance, short-term disability insurance, workers comp, FICA, family leave, paid vacation, paid personal leave. When you have priests, brothers, sisters and deacons who are just as skilled and can do this job more economically, it makes no sense to hire a layperson. We have to remember that it’s parishes that keep the diocesan administration going.

Hiring and placement of priests, deacons, brothers, sisters and laymen is a systematic process based on need, skills, availability of human resources, and legal requirements. Many people don’t know these details and think that it’s easy to put a priest in a parish, because he’s a priest.

To close, let me give you an example of a very silly post I read here. A long time ago, someone posted that the Franciscan of the Eternal Word were wasting priests and that the laity should start a letter writing campaign. The concern was that they have six or seven friars who are priests, but none of them are in parish work.

The person completely missed two important facts. 1) St. Francis did not start a congregation of priests. Staffing parishes was not on his agenda. His agenda was living the Gospel in fraternity and taking the Gospel where the secular clergy could not go. This meant, to go beyond the parish.
  1. The MFVA were founded to serve in the area of Catholic Communication. Through Catholic Communication they fulfill St. Francis’ vision. They take the Gospel to the world. Their other mission is to maintain ongoing adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. These two missions do not allow for parish work.
You just can’t plant a priest. You have to weigh many factors.
 
It is a shame that the other Eastern Catholics were chased off this thread because I had wanted to ask about living arrangements in the Eastern Churches. What you describe seems like a nice mix of married and celibate priests, and more of them. Thank you for posting this.

Are the priests given a rectory to live in or do they get a stipend for housing and make their own living arrangements?

-Tim-
It varies. My pastor and his wife and kids are living in the rectory which is attached to the church.

My dad’s pastor (roman, celibate) has no rectory, and lives 2 miles away from the parish.
 
As the Eastern Catholic Churches permit married men to become priests and the Latin Church has welcomed married men (priests converting) from Church of England, for example, and ordain them as Catholic priests, the Church obviously disagrees with your views on this matter.
First of all celibacy has never been adopted in the East
Married men are allowed to be priest but unmarried priests a not allowed to marry.
Neither can a married priest become a bishop.
The tradition in the west at least since the 4th century was an exclusive celibate priesthood.
Because of the chaotic situations in the west it was difficult to enforce. It became strickly enforced by the 11th. century
What is the benefit to a non celibate priesthood?
there is actually zero benefit and a huge downside.
We have the most efficient use of clergy in the world.

Please remember the married former Anglican priests are largely older men with grown families.
Accepting older married deacons might work.
Young men with families would be a disaster.
 
One possible risk that I can see in married priests is that this might be the beginning of there being families and dynasties of priests. In Hinduism this has happened to some extent with the priests setting themselves off as a caste unto themselves which it is very difficult to get into if not by birth. If you want priests to continue to be of the people and for the people, they must continue to come from the people.

You may think, that’s not really comparable. Surely, anybody who is baptised and confirned a Catholic can apply to go to a seminary, and candidates are selected there on personal merits. But imagine a mediocre candidate having a distinguished priest or a bishop or even a pope as a father. Will the director of the seminary be able to turn that young man away? There is a risk he would sign him on to avoid friction with his superiors, and turn down a better but less distinguished candidate in his place. And thus starts the thin edge of the wedge.
 
First of all celibacy has never been adopted in the East
Married men are allowed to be priest but unmarried priests a not allowed to marry.
Neither can a married priest become a bishop.
The tradition in the west at least since the 4th century was an exclusive celibate priesthood.
Because of the chaotic situations in the west it was difficult to enforce. It became strickly enforced by the 11th. century
What is the benefit to a non celibate priesthood?
there is actually zero benefit and a huge downside.
We have the most efficient use of clergy in the world.

Please remember the married former Anglican priests are largely older men with grown families.
Accepting older married deacons might work.
Young men with families would be a disaster.
You seem to missing my only point. The other poster said that Bishops cannot ordain married men or they would be reprimanded. That is nonsense. The Church allows married men to be ordained and Bishops do the ordaining.
That is the only point I am debating. I am not debating the pros and cons of celibacy.
 
First of all celibacy has never been adopted in the East
Married men are allowed to be priest but unmarried priests a not allowed to marry.
Neither can a married priest become a bishop.
The tradition in the west at least since the 4th century was an exclusive celibate priesthood.
Because of the chaotic situations in the west it was difficult to enforce. It became strickly enforced by the 11th. century
What is the benefit to a non celibate priesthood?
there is actually zero benefit and a huge downside.
We have the most efficient use of clergy in the world.

Please remember the married former Anglican priests are largely older men with grown families.
Accepting older married deacons might work.
Young men with families would be a disaster.
There is no issue with accepting older married deacons. The majority of deacons ordained in the US are married and over 45. Deacons are routinely ordained at younger ages and with small children in Europe.

Younger and older however, are relative. One has to be 35 in the US to be ordained. I’m not sure of the minimum age in Europe. Deacons seem to be much older in the US in relation to the rest of the world.

Reference The Emerging Diaconate by William T. Ditewig.

bks9.books.google.com/books?id=MSpOXG-t7jgC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE70I-DAlYPA9DJKa6__2pBr5TQ-AcN5seIGZu6WKNOgtaGr69ooyZ2CyB8_zLr0vG-INEqp1CpYFM-VZ-mJ_rom-9ItbgXQ59E4E5zHwrPI_32zKT_sa6E7ZCNiR-JEirjzLLp4i

-Tim-
 
One possible risk that I can see in married priests is that this might be the beginning of there being families and dynasties of priests. In Hinduism this has happened to some extent with the priests setting themselves off as a caste unto themselves which it is very difficult to get into if not by birth. If you want priests to continue to be of the people and for the people, they must continue to come from the people.

You may think, that’s not really comparable. Surely, anybody who is baptised and confirned a Catholic can apply to go to a seminary, and candidates are selected there on personal merits. But imagine a mediocre candidate having a distinguished priest or a bishop or even a pope as a father. Will the director of the seminary be able to turn that young man away? There is a risk he would sign him on to avoid friction with his superiors, and turn down a better but less distinguished candidate in his place. And thus starts the thin edge of the wedge.
Interesting point you make there; one I had never considered, but one that I don’t think would matter much in the USA. Being a priest would either be a calling or it would not. We are not in the European Middle Ages with its nobility and slaves system. Many children of Eastern Catholic priests or Protestant ministers opt to pursue secular jobs and it is actually the majority of them. I don’t think this would be in issue in the USA, but perhaps in other areas.
 
Interesting point you make there; one I had never considered, but one that I don’t think would matter much in the USA. Being a priest would either be a calling or it would not. We are not in the European Middle Ages with its nobility and slaves system. Many children of Eastern Catholic priests or Protestant ministers opt to pursue secular jobs and it is actually the majority of them. I don’t think this would be in issue in the USA, but perhaps in other areas.
It actually doesn’t matter much anywhere. I don’t know about Protestants, but with the Eastern and Oriental Churches (both those in and out of union with Rome) priesthood certainly is not a “family business” so-to-speak. The far larger problem, particularly among the aristocracy, was always nepotism. And even that not so much in simple priesthood (except as a necessary stepping-stone) but rather in the episcopacy.
 
First of all celibacy has never been adopted in the EastMarried men are allowed to be priest but unmarried priests a not allowed to marry.
Neither can a married priest become a bishop.
The tradition in the west at least since the 4th century was an exclusive celibate priesthood.
Because of the chaotic situations in the west it was difficult to enforce. It became strickly enforced by the 11th. century
What is the benefit to a non celibate priesthood?
there is actually zero benefit and a huge downside.
We have the most efficient use of clergy in the world.

Please remember the married former Anglican priests are largely older men with grown families.
Accepting older married deacons might work.
Young men with families would be a disaster.
If celebacy has never been adopted in the East then are you saying that unmarried Priests are free to have sexual relations? Somehow that doesn’t seem right. Maybe I am missing something here.:confused:
 
If celebacy has never been adopted in the East then are you saying that unmarried Priests are free to have sexual relations? Somehow that doesn’t seem right. Maybe I am missing something here.:confused:
Celibacy means not getting married. Continence means not having sexual relations.
 
Celibacy means not getting married. Continence means not having sexual relations.
And chastity is having no relations outside of a valid marriage. All christians are called to be chase. All single christians are called to be continent. Not all are called to be celibate.
 
Continence is self-control.

Chastity is lived according to the moral standards of your state in life. Everyone is called to live a life of chastity. Married people are to live conjugal chastity while others are to live a life of chastity in continence. Chastity is a virtue, a form of temperance, and includes modesty. A married couple can have a very active sex life and still be chaste (conjugal chastity) if they are modest and use sex rightly.

Celibacy is a renunciation of marriage. Not being married automatically means that it is a renunciation of sex. As a practical matter therefor, Celibacy is no marriage and no sex - the no sex part goes without saying when there is no marriage. Celibacy is a more perfect form of chastity. Some profess consecrated celibacy - they make themselves a gift to God alone with an undivided heart.

Reference vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#2349.

When we talk about a celibate priesthood, we are talking about a renunciation of marriage. No sex goes along with that.

-Tim-
 
If celebacy has never been adopted in the East then are you saying that unmarried Priests are free to have sexual relations? Somehow that doesn’t seem right. Maybe I am missing something here.:confused:
Modern Catholic Dictionary:

CELIBACY. The state of being unmarried and, in Church usage, of one who has never been married. Catholicism distinguishes between lay and ecclesiastical celibacy, and in both cases a person freely chooses for religious reasons to remain celibate.

Lay celibacy was practiced already in the early Church. The men were called “the continent” (continentes) and women “virgins” (virgines). They were also known as ascetics who were encouraged to follow this form of life by St. Paul. According to the Apostle, “An unmarried man can devote himself to the Lord’s affairs, all he need worry about is pleasing the Lord . . . In the same way an unmarried woman, like a young girl, can devote herself to the Lord’s affairs; all she need worry about is being holy in body and spirit” (I Corinthians 7:32, 34). Throughout history the Church has fostered a celibate life in the lay state. Towering among the means of sanctity available to the laity, declared the Second Vatican Council, “is that precious gift of divine grace given to some by the Father to devote themselves to God alone more easily with an undivided heart in virginity or celibacy. This perfect continence for love of the kingdom of heaven has always been held in high esteem by the Church as a sign and stimulus of love, and as a singular source of spiritual fertility in the world” (Constitution on the Church, 42).

Ecclesiastical celibacy was a logical development of Christ’s teaching about continence (Matthew 19:10-12). The first beginnings of religious life were seen in the self-imposed practice of celibacy among men and women who wished to devote themselves to a lifetime following Christ in the practice of the evangelical counsels. Celibacy was one of the features of the earliest hermits and a requirement of the first monastic foundations under St. Pachomius (c. 290-346). Over the centuries religious celibacy has been the subject of the Church’s frequent legislation. The Second Vatican Council named chastity first among the evangelical counsels to be practiced by religious and said that “it is a special symbol of heavenly benefits, and for religious it is a most effective means of dedicating themselves wholeheartedly to the divine service and the works of the apostolate” (Decree on the Up-to-date Renewal of Religious Life, 12). (Etym. Latin caelibatus, single life, celibacy.)
 
As the Church allows it it means they don’t agree that married priests are lesser than single priests so yes the Church disagrees with your view.
Once again you are incorrect, since this is not my view or what I’m saying. What I’m saying is the Church prefers priests to be single and celibate. I did not say the Church holds celibate priests as greater than married priests.

I swear there is some modern heresy going around nowadays where Catholics believe the Church does not have preferences simply because She allows something.:rolleyes:

The Church allows (under certain circumstances) married men to become priests. She prefers priest to be celibate.
 
Once again you are incorrect, since this is not my view or what I’m saying. What I’m saying is the Church prefers priests to be single and celibate. I did not say the Church holds celibate priests as greater than married priests.

I swear there is some modern heresy going around nowadays where Catholics believe the Church does not have preferences simply because She allows something.:rolleyes:

The Church allows (under certain circumstances) married men to become priests. She prefers priest to be celibate.
You should read your posts because that is most certainly what you are implying.
The Church does NOT consider married priests lesser priests.

“Once again you are incorrect”. Well then in your opinion when is the other time?
 
You should read your posts because that is most certainly what you are implying.
The Church does NOT consider married priests lesser priests.
Please give evidence showing that I’ve stated the Church consideres married preists as lesser priests. Or show me were YOU think I’ve implied this.
“Once again you are incorrect”. Well then in your opinion when is the other time?
The first time you accused me of saying the Church thinks married priests are lesser priests.
 
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