Will the Church now be persecuted?

[evelynicholson]

Archbishop Vincent Nicholls of Birminham here in the UK warns that all the Catholic Adoption agencies, which provide parents for some of the most difficult to place Children (disabled or with other problems) may have to close down! There are new penal laws which make it *illegal to refuse to allow homosexual couples to adopt children, *which we cannot do.These children have enough problems already. Whilst I acknowledge that in the past homosexuals have been appallingly and cruelly discriminated against by individuals, (which is expressly forbidden in the catechism, as they too have their art to play and gifts to give) and can be forgiven after all, I am concerned that the only option will be to close the doors for adoptions, unless we go private and fund the whole thing ourselves, which is another option. This is not because a civil partnership of two caring homosexuals couldn’t do the job well, but because the law is clearly against our teaching.This is sad for them but they could extend some tolerance of our faith as well.

This law was recently made by the many homosexuals in the present government and cabinet who want equality with marriage.It becomes law from April 1st. There is now a terrible problem for believers. Archbishop Nicholls says children cannot be allowed to go into households where grave sin happens, though a celebate gay person can adopt.
My concern is now that churches cannot refuse the use of their halls or facilities to groups of homosexuals for Civil partenerships etc and this creates a great many problems.

The Anglican church too is being driven to schism through the homosexuals in America and Canada pushing for ‘equal marital rights’ . Now this week,the poor old Anglican Bishop of Hereford has been arrested and is presently dragged before court using the teaching of the Church as his reason for refusing a youth worker’s job to a practising homosexual. I know he’s an Anglican but please pray for him, because the fine of £2000 he will have to pay will be recouped from the church. This is the latest in the series of attacks since the Stonewall Gay group invaded the Easter Sunday homily of the Archbishop of Canterbury several years ago.They have to make the most of their power at the moment as no one believes they and the current government can be elected again.We must pray hard about this. I have no gripe against anyone, but to close down all our Catholic adoption agencies will be awful. It seems the rights of homosexuals are more important than te welfare of disabled and handicapped children.

The Scottish Catholic church will flout the law and pay the fines,apparently.On the plus side many are impressed by the stance of the church. I have no anger or discrimination in me for any gay person, but new laws attempting to **force **Christian and Catholic schools to take children of other faiths or none, and other laws forbidding hotels or private Christian boarding houses to refuse homosexual couples a room does seem oppressive, especially as with our huge Polish immigration we do not have enough Catholic Schools for our own children. Please pray for us in the UK and our Anglican brethren that they find the right way out even if it is to do as so many have now done and joined with us in our Church and come home, and that gay people will gain understanding and respect our teaching. Is there anyone who can comfort us on this, or support us in the UK (apart from God our Father of course.) ?In nomine Christo +

 

[1ke]

This has already begun happening in the US as well.

Catholic Charities had to stop doing adoptions in two states so far due to these heinous laws that discriminate against the free exercise of religion.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

This is not because a civil partnership of two caring homosexuals couldn’t do the job well, but because the law is clearly against our teaching.

Whose side are you on? Homosexual relationships are not a mirror image of normal sexual love. Only dippy Anglican bishops believe in stable, loving, committed homosexual partnerships. Homosexuals themselves prefer pornographic type set-ups.

They have to make the most of their power at the moment as no one believes they and the current government can be elected again.We must pray hard about this.

I think that the homosexual lobby is so obviously extreme, and doesn’t carry the main weight of public opinion with them, that the program will fail. However that will force a bit of a reassessment by the general population on its sexual mores. I do have one bit of sympathy for homosexuals. If contraception and cohabitation are tacitly tolerated, why should they be singled out for opprobrium? There is also the risk of an extreme reaction. If the British Nationalist Party is perceived as the only party with any common sense, it could be unpleasant.

 

[puppylove]

Oh gosh…

Prayers being said!!!

 

[DL82]

This law was recently made by the many homosexuals in the present government and cabinet who want equality with marriage.It becomes law from April 1st. There is now a terrible problem for believers. Archbishop Nicholls says children cannot be allowed to go into households where grave sin happens, though a celebate gay person can adopt.
My concern is now that churches cannot refuse the use of their halls or facilities to groups of homosexuals for Civil partenerships etc and this creates a great many problems.

Does the Catholic Church refuse to place children with unmarried couples? What about married couples who practice sodomy or other non-procreative type acts? Do they even ask? Do they check up on whether single homosexuals are celebate? What’s wrong with ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’? It works for the military (and the priesthood )

It just seems like a double standard.

As I understand it though, the new law is about protecting against discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, not about practice. That means it is still permissible to forbid adoption to people on the grounds that they are living in grave sin.

If the Catholic Church were simply to say that they only give children to people who are either:
a) single, or
b) in a valid Catholic marriage,
they would quite easily be able to get around this law. As it is, the Church is making what seems to me to be quite a ridiculously extreme stand on this issue.

 

[estesbob]

Does the Catholic Church refuse to place children with unmarried couples? What about married couples who practice sodomy or other non-procreative type acts? Do they even ask? Do they check up on whether single homosexuals are celebate? What’s wrong with ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’? It works for the military (and the priesthood )

It just seems like a double standard.

As I understand it though, the new law is about protecting against discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, not about practice. That means it is still permissible to forbid adoption to people on the grounds that they are living in grave sin.

If the Catholic Church were simply to say that they only give children to people who are either:
a) single, or
b) in a valid Catholic marriage,
they would quite easily be able to get around this law. As it is, the Church is making what seems to me to be quite a ridiculously extreme stand on this issue.

Affirming two thousand years of teaching is ridicoulously extrerme?

 

[dylanschrader]

What’s wrong with ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’? It works for the military (and the priesthood )

Excuse me, but that’s a little offensive.

 

[evelynicholson]

Whose side are you on? Homosexual relationships are not a mirror image of normal sexual love. Only dippy Anglican bishops believe in stable, loving, committed homosexual partnerships. Homosexuals themselves prefer pornographic type set-ups.

I think that the homosexual lobby is so obviously extreme, and doesn’t carry the main weight of public opinion with them, that the program will fail. However that will force a bit of a reassessment by the general population on its sexual mores. I do have one bit of sympathy for homosexuals. If contraception and cohabitation are tacitly tolerated, why should they be singled out for opprobrium? There is also the risk of an extreme reaction. If the British Nationalist Party is perceived as the only party with any common sense, it could be unpleasant.

Malcolm, I know you know whose side I am on. The Catholic Church teaches that all human beings are enriched with some of God’s gifts, and whilst I have known some extremely sad old homosexuals abandoned by everyone, I have also known at least two old couples who have leaved together for many years and are very loving and supportinve and helpful to other people. It is sad they are how they are, and they know my views, but you have to see the face of Christ in everyone and appreciate the talents etc that people have,and just be very sad they are as they are. In any case, I am not judging my neighbour as I have my own sins and it is for God alone to judge. We are fortunate that we have been given grace to understand the will of God, and we must fight sin hard when civil authorities force their will on us, but the Catechism itself FORBIDS discrimination or cruel treatment of other human beings and of homosexuals in particular.It asks homosexual to live a chaste life .

 

[E_Kubena]

if you use the premise that the “Catechism itself FORBIDS discrimination or cruel treatment…” then we better rid ourselves of the ten commandments because we do want the discriminate and have a true realization of the cruel reprucussions we will face when we turn our back on them. Please quit playing word games with the catechism to justify sin.

 

[evelynicholson]

if you use the premise that the “Catechism itself FORBIDS discrimination or cruel treatment…” then we better rid ourselves of the ten commandments because we do want the discriminate and have a true realization of the cruel reprucussions we will face when we turn our back on them. Please quit playing word games with the catechism to justify sin.

You are very young to understand what this whole subject is about and you should do more Bible study. The Ten Commandments are our law, but so is *Love your neighbour as yourself *Mother Theresa said you must see the face of Christ in every person, in every sinner. Holy Patrick himself begins his confession with’ I Patrick a sinner’We are all sinners. Cruelty and hatred and evil and rage have no place in the life of a Christian. Only God judges, only God condemns. I should talk to a spiritual director about this rage and almost hatred . Love is patient, kind, tolerant, bears no record of wrongs is not iritable or proud (1 Cor 13) and sinners need this more than us, so they will see the light in us, how we are different from them. We must not show them hatred, evil or malice- God does not need his avengers-he will do it himself. We all detest sin, but will receive the same mercy from God as we show toother sinners…We have to stand firm in our faith against sin and evil, but we are bound by the moral law of Christ as well as that of the Commandments, which Chrirst explained.

 

[InTheWilderness]

We must be charitable to all, certainly.

However, I don’t think we should go around placing children in objectively sinful situations as a matter of church policy. That would be highly uncharitable toward all involved. It would certainly not be ideal for the children. It would also be less than ideal for the “parents” since they would be morally responsible for setting a proper example to the child, which certain lifestyles would make virtually impossible.

 

[evelynicholson]

We must be charitable to all, certainly.

However, I don’t think we should go around placing children in objectively sinful situations as a matter of church policy. That would be highly uncharitable toward all involved. It would certainly not be ideal for the children. It would also be less than ideal for the “parents” since they would be morally responsible for setting a proper example to the child, which certain lifestyles would make virtually impossible.

I agree with you **absolutely. This cannot happen **(my original point).Children have to be protected from grave sin, which is why we will have to close our adoption services here in the UK. There seems to be a feeling around generally that the sin doesn’t matter,but it does to us.

All Christians in the UK who express this concern are having long visits from the police to try to *‘show them the error of their thinking’ *and people like Archbishop Nicholls and the poor old Anglican Bishop of Hereford who are indeed paying the price. My **point **was that you have to fight this agenda tooth and nail, as it is not the abilities and qualities of the homoxexuals which matter, but placing children with enough problems already in homes where there is grave sin.
Part of a wider problem in the UK

Recently there have been so many problems as the gaylobby use the *multiculturalism *card to discriminate against all Christians who are ;‘holding the country up culturally’ from forbidding the erection of a cross (!)outside a Methodist Church , to forcing a Baptist Church drug rehabilitation centre (that they had paid for themselves in Christian charity) to removing Christian symbols (including a Madonna) from hospital chapels and yet putting a prayer mat and bowl of water in there!

At the moment Christians are not fully aware of what is going on and it is all very low level persecution but the showdown with the Catholic and Anglican Churches in this country is the biggest one yet. This was after we had the government try to force Catholic Schools to accept certain quotas of other faiths when we don’thave enough places for our own children. Cardinal O’Connor and the Church led a spirited attack there and negotiated a voluntary arrangement. You can’t play the multicultural card in a Catholic school you see, which is why they wanted this.

Birmingham council even tried to ban the word Christmas and ,made up the word ‘Winterval’ (??) which has enraged people and held up the city to ridicule. A half burned bonfire was left (I believe) in Westminster square in London by homosexuals (Stonewall) with ‘In the name of the father’ scrawled on a half burned bit of paper, so I am aware there is tremendous evil here as this is blasphemy. It is sad that a tolerant country has become like this but we must fight it hard with politics, with prayer and with our own determination to see God’s will prevail . (Already the UK has seen a huge decline in the number of doctors willing to be abortionists. The Holy Spirit is working here- there is a real shortage. Younger doctors are refusing to do it.).The extreme homosexuals must indeed find a brick wall when it comes to the Church’s teaching, which is why they do all this.
I urge all Catholics to pray for the Church in the UK and for the Anglican Bishop, (whose own church is not even unified in his defence). There are local elections in the UK next month and we hope a powerful message will be sent to this government so it will look to its errors, along with the gay lobby who have supported it. I also ask you to invoke the power of Holy St Michael to protect our Faithful by saying his prayer daily.

Holy Michael, Archangel!
Defend us in the day of battle!
Be our Safeguard
against the wickedness and the snares of the devil!
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray!
And do thou, Prince of the Heavenly Hosts
cast into hell Satan and all his wicked spirits
who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls!
Amen*

Exsurge Domine , et intende judicio meo, Deus meus, in causam meam. Effunde frameam, et conclude adversus eos, qui me persequutur. Ps 34 :23-5*

 

[Kaninchen]

Where everything is ‘persecution’, nothing is - in other words, the word loses its meaning.

Not getting your way on everything does not constitute ‘persecution’ - as somebody pointed out on another thread ‘Dafur is persecution’.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

marriage in Canada has a similar problem, right now churches can refuse to marry gay couples, there are the United Church and some Lutheran who have for yrs. Why not go there I ask, but no gay couples want the right to marry whereever they want.

But anyhow, when the law came out the people working for civil marriages, justice of peace were told that they had several months to make up their minds and if they would not marry a gay couple then they could resign their postion.

So Pastors and Priests are understandably nervous, about gay marriage, so far its not pushed, but one day it will be. Thats the problem you are having with adoption as well its possible to move to that next level.

To deny your own beliefs for another. And like I said in Canada there was already some churches that would and justice of peaces would to (just now they have to) So in reality there was no need for the law. But it was put through anyway.

 

[evelynicholson]

Where everything is ‘persecution’, nothing is - in other words, the word loses its meaning.

Not getting your way on everything does not constitute ‘persecution’ - as somebody pointed out on another thread ‘Dafur is persecution’.

Persecution is when one group of people have penal laws passed against them with a view to stamping out their belief system or race. (eg. Mugabe and his persecution of a rival tribe by starvation and murder) I am quite sure the opposition knows what persecution is.

I am sure early Christians understood what persecution is was they were waiting for the lions and what homosexuals felt as they were dragged in front of courts and put in prison for their behaviour, in times past.It was a pity they could not ‘get their way’.

**The meaning of the word ‘persecution’ is quite clear in English **from its Latin root. It is close to the word ‘discrimination’ which seems gentler-married Christian couples are ‘discriminated’ against by some adoption services as authorities fear they will not be ‘inclusive’ or ;supportive enough should the child turn out to be homosexual(!) It is true that the oppostion parties in Zimbabwe do cannot ‘get their way’ with Mugabe and that the Christians could not ‘get their way’ with the various Roman emperors trying to force them to worship their gods, but the meaning of the word is clear. We have a beginning of a problem here in Uk which needs effort not to discriminate and be cruel to fellow citizens but to protect the teaching of the Church, which is at issue and we need the most powerful forces to help us. (Have you read Jimmy Akin’s booklet?

 

[Kaninchen]

So, making Christians a bit miffed is persecution but making gays a bit miffed would not constitute persecution?

 

[evelynicholson]

So, making Christians a bit miffed is persecution but making gays a bit miffed would not constitute persecution?

We are defending the teaching of the Church of Christ. Gays can do whatever they like under the law and you have seen how I have defended the right of every person to be treated with respect and consideration. This has not happened in the past, but thankfully this has changed.We no longer burn people at the stake because they don’t agree with us.

There is a view around today,that religions are like catalogues. You pick one out, subscribe, pay your money and have a right to change the teaching. In Christians, who have been initiated into the mystical body of Christ, we cannot on pain of eternal damnation go against the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as we meet him in the Holy Eucharist, We pray for all of suffering humanity, but we cannot be forced to deny our beliefs by people outside our body who are promoting their own individual agendas, for respectability or whatever reason. Our persecution is indeed very low key at the moment, as the cilivl laws have not been tested. We can , however, never deny the church’s teaching. so we will never accept we can alter what has been handed down by the apostles

There are plenty of organisations that accept gays it just seems a fruitless battle with the Catholic which has decimated the Anglican Church for example.I have many friends who are gays as I said above and they know and understand my views, By remaining calm and loving they have remained friends, who listen to what I have to say. Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.If some gays are miffed I am sorry. I am not miffed, but I will not deny the teachings of Christ himself. I pray for all my friends.

We are all sinners but when good and holy men are arrested for their beliefs I will defend them.This used to be a free country. Now it isn’t any more . Homosexuality is not a faith-it’s an inclination and a practice which has been accepted by the world at large. The church is, however. **in this **world, but not of it, as our eyes are on the next stage of existance.Jesus has promised if we repent of our sins, and unite ourselves to him by baptism that he will pay the price for our sins himself! What amazing love! It does mean they have to stop doing the sinful acts and he will save them.
If people act outside this faith, they have excluded themselves from the promise. No one is excluding them. God wants people to be saved for heaven, but like Adam, some people disobey.If we care about people, we want them to be saved as well, and must procaim the gospel openly and fearlessly.
**Ein guter Mensch in seinem dunklem Drange ist sich des rechten Weges wohl bewusst. (Gott im Prolog zu Faust-Goethe)

 

[evelynicholson]

So, making Christians a bit miffed is persecution but making gays a bit miffed would not constitute persecution?

We are defending the teaching of the Church of Christ. Gays can do whatever they like under the law and you have seen how I have defended the right of every person to be treated with respect and consideration. This has not happened in the past, but thankfully this has changed.We no longer burn people at the stake because they don’t agree with us.

There is a view around today,that religions are like catalogues. You pick one out, subscribe, pay your money and have a right to change the teaching. In Christians, who have been initiated into the mystical body of Christ, we cannot on pain of eternal damnation go against the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as we meet him in the Holy Eucharist, We pray for all of suffering humanity, but we cannot be forced to deny our beliefs by people outside our body who are promoting their own individual agendas, for respectability or whatever reason. Our persecution is indeed very low key at the moment, as the cilivl laws have not been tested. We can , however, never deny the church’s teaching. so we will never accept we can alter what has been handed down by the apostles

There are plenty of organisations that accept gays it just seems a fruitless battle with the Catholic which has decimated the Anglican Church for example.I have many friends who are gays as I said above and they know and understand my views, By remaining calm and loving they have remained friends, who listen to what I have to say. Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.If some gays are miffed I am sorry. I am not miffed, but I will not deny the teachings of Christ himself. I pray for all my friends.

We are all sinners but when good and holy men are arrested for their beliefs I will defend them.This used to be a free country. Now it isn’t any more . Homosexuality is not a faith-it’s an inclination and a practice which has been accepted by the world at large. The church is, however. **in this **world, but not of it, as our eyes are on the next stage of existance.Jesus has promised if we repent of our sins, and unite ourselves to him by baptism that he will pay the price for our sins himself! What amazing love! It does mean they have to stop doing the sinful acts and he will save them.
If people act outside this faith, they have excluded themselves from the promise. No one is excluding them. God wants people to be saved for heaven, but like Adam, some people disobey.If we care about people, we want them to be saved as well, and must procaim the gospel openly and fearlessly.
**Ein guter Mensch in seinem dunklem Drange ist sich des rechten Weges wohl bewusst. (Gott im Prolog zu Faust-Goethe)

 

[evelynicholson]

Does the Catholic Church refuse to place children with unmarried couples? What about married couples who practice sodomy or other non-procreative type acts? Do they even ask? Do they check up on whether single homosexuals are celebate? What’s wrong with ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’? It works for the military (and the priesthood )

It just seems like a double standard.

As I understand it though, the new law is about protecting against discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, not about practice. That means it is still permissible to forbid adoption to people on the grounds that they are living in grave sin.

If the Catholic Church were simply to say that they only give children to people who are either:
a) single, or
b) in a valid Catholic marriage,
they would quite easily be able to get around this law. As it is, the Church is making what seems to me to be quite a ridiculously extreme stand on this issue.

Celebate homosexuals may adopt children in UK,

 

[Kaninchen]

We are defending the teaching of the Church of Christ.

Well, that’s all very well and doesn’t bother me in the slightest. What bothers me is when/whether that ‘defending’ becomes ‘attacking’ others.

We are all sinners but when good and holy men are arrested for their beliefs I will defend them.

Where are they being arrested?

Ein guter Mensch in seinem dunklem Drange ist sich des rechten Weges wohl bewusst. (Gott im Prolog zu Faust-Goethe)

«Cela est bien dit, répondit Candide, mais il faut cultiver notre jardin.»