Will the Mass of Paul VI survive another 50 years?

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Do you think the Mass of Paul VI will be around for another 50 years?

I believe that the Pauline Mass will be reformed or even discarded for another form of the Mass. I see the work of Pope Benedict having a great influence on the development of liturgy for many years to come. The liberation of the Tridentine Mass will influence the Pauline Mass; in fact, the new translation of the Mass shows this to be true.

I can’t say exactly what will happen, but I don’t think the current Ordinary Form of the Mass will be around for another 15 years. Changes will be made, in my opinion.

Do you agree?
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Do you think the Mass of Paul VI will be around for another 50 years?

I believe that the Pauline Mass will be reformed or even discarded for another form of the Mass. I see the work of Pope Benedict having a great influence on the development of liturgy for many years to come. The liberation of the Tridentine Mass will influence the Pauline Mass; in fact, the new translation of the Mass shows this to be true.

I can’t say exactly what will happen, but I don’t think the current Ordinary Form of the Mass will be around for another 15 years. Changes will be made, in my opinion.

Do you agree?
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I think we will probably see reform of some sort and the standard of liturgy will almost certainly improve, having said that the average standard in many places was so low the only way may have became up.

Pope Benedict will have an influence on it, and I think in some ways that may be feeding through already, hopefully. We can also look forward to more tradition friendly Priests coming out of Seminary who should be able to say the Mass in Latin for both forms. The TLM will hopefully have a significant influence on the NO, but many Bishops are opposed to it the TLM being widely available anywhere which will reduce its potential impact. At least we can expect further guidance on this from the Pope once the time has passed for him receiving feedback. Attributing the new translation to this is slightly erroneous, we’re only now getting a decent translation to English from the Latin, in effect it’s being brought into line with what the rest of the world know as the NO.

I think it’s difficult to plan so far ahead at the moment, although we may have more of an idea once the results of Summorum Pontificum emerge. For example, unless Pope Benedict reaches a very good age, which I’m sure everyone hopes he will, it may be very much dependent on whoever succeeds him.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Do you think the Mass of Paul VI will be around for another 50 years?

I believe that the Pauline Mass will be reformed or even discarded for another form of the Mass. I see the work of Pope Benedict having a great influence on the development of liturgy for many years to come. The liberation of the Tridentine Mass will influence the Pauline Mass; in fact, the new translation of the Mass shows this to be true.

I can’t say exactly what will happen, but I don’t think the current Ordinary Form of the Mass will be around for another 15 years. Changes will be made, in my opinion.

Do you agree?
Click to expand...
No.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Do you think the Mass of Paul VI will be around for another 50 years?

I believe that the Pauline Mass will be reformed or even discarded for another form of the Mass. I see the work of Pope Benedict having a great influence on the development of liturgy for many years to come. The liberation of the Tridentine Mass will influence the Pauline Mass; in fact, the new translation of the Mass shows this to be true.

I can’t say exactly what will happen, but I don’t think the current Ordinary Form of the Mass will be around for another 15 years. Changes will be made, in my opinion.

Do you agree?
Click to expand...
I think the Pauline Mass is in for a long run. Now that many abuses have been done away with (although not in all parts of the U.S.) and some of the translations have been improved, I don’t expect that it will be reformed or discarded. As originally provided for, I think we will see more use of Latin within the Pauline Mass.

I’d like to see a reform of the music used at mass. I’m no musician so I don’t complain about the music itself but about the lyrics which sometimes reflect very poor theology. But I don’t miss some of the overly sentimental hymns we used to drone.
 
Claire_from_DE said:
I’d like to see a reform of the music used at mass. I’m no musician so I don’t complain about the music itself but about the lyrics which sometimes reflect very poor theology. But I don’t miss some of the overly sentimental hymns we used to drone.
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Yes, I certainly agree with you on that, Claire - so much music that makes its way into our churches is liturgically unsuitable, not to mention completely impractical if musicians endeavour to take the Vatican’s advice and give the organ pride of place in the musical life of the Church. As an organist I have found so much music which is totally unplayable on the organ… Anyway, so many problems would be dealt with if we brought back more Gregorian Chant!

As for the Mass itself, I think it’s fine. I think if anything needs to be done it is for bishops to clamp down on priests who improvise during the Mass - creating their own Eucharistic Prayers etc. - instead of following the Missal as it is. As someone said here before, they should read what’s in black and do what’s in red and not waffle during sermons. Sticking exactly to the Missal would, in my humble opinion, improve the quality and dignity of OF Masses enormously. I wouldn’t mind seeing a bit more Latin in there too!!
 
I think the Pauline Mass is in for a long run. Now that many abuses have been done away with (although not in all parts of the U.S.) and some of the translations have been improved, I don’t expect that it will be reformed or discarded. As originally provided for, I think we will see more use of Latin within the Pauline Mass.
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So you think the Pauline Mass will eventually become more like what the Council Father’s envisioned in Sacrosanctum Concilium?
 
I remember as a kid going to Mass…it was always crowded…no matter which one I went to. Everyone pointed in the same direction…the Tabernacle,the Crucifix…God…the priest would also face that way…only when he delivered the homily and read from the good book did we see his face…we spent much time on our knees…humbled in the presence of Holiness!Our missal was Latin on one side and english on the other…great way to learn another language and also a comforting thought that no matter where in the world I were to go…and in my younger days and military I was there ,did that etc…I could understand and Latin bound us all up together…one Faith,one flock…ONE LOVE!!! The english was high class and did not have words like 'blest’what ever but blessed.When we went up to communion we felt proud for we had the courage,the nerve,the intelligence to have gone to confession the day before and so the privilege of receiving we earned…and we knelt on the rail in order to receive. We were told in catechisim class that during the middle ages eveil ones would try and steal the host before it dissolved and use it for a black mass (doing dirty rotten things to it)so thats why it was placed on our tongues instead of into our palms…makes sense…but as it was in the 1960s after my favorite pope died…PiusX11…common sense went out the window as being 'square’and out dated…every aspect of 'liberalism’has failed…re: encouraging more young people to go to mass,making religion more relevent (?) more community ,more a happening,more joyeous (yikes)bring in guitars and out with the organ music,encouraging the sisters to discard their out dated habits for contemporary outfits…then again ,if you wanted to destroy…mmmmmmm…When its my time I hope I go to where Cardinal MIndszenty is,not PaulV1…(the cardinal was promised if he would leave the america embassy in Budapest,when he was rescued by brave Hungarian freedom fighters,that he would be allowed to return to his people…he was lied to and was never allowed to go back to his beloved homeland…the Christian who tugs at the oars hasn’t time to rock the boat!!!
 
Nino said:
I remember as a kid going to Mass…it was always crowded…no matter which one I went to. Everyone pointed in the same direction…the Tabernacle,the Crucifix…God…the priest would also face that way…only when he delivered the homily and read from the good book did we see his face…we spent much time on our knees…humbled in the presence of Holiness!Our missal was Latin on one side and english on the other…great way to learn another language and also a comforting thought that no matter where in the world I were to go…and in my younger days and military I was there ,did that etc…I could understand and Latin bound us all up together…one Faith,one flock…ONE LOVE!!! The english was high class and did not have words like 'blest’what ever but blessed.When we went up to communion we felt proud for we had the courage,the nerve,the intelligence to have gone to confession the day before and so the privilege of receiving we earned…and we knelt on the rail in order to receive. We were told in catechisim class that during the middle ages eveil ones would try and steal the host before it dissolved and use it for a black mass (doing dirty rotten things to it)so thats why it was placed on our tongues instead of into our palms…makes sense…but as it was in the 1960s after my favorite pope died…PiusX11…common sense went out the window as being 'square’and out dated…every aspect of 'liberalism’has failed…re: encouraging more young people to go to mass,making religion more relevent (?) more community ,more a happening,more joyeous (yikes)bring in guitars and out with the organ music,encouraging the sisters to discard their out dated habits for contemporary outfits…then again ,if you wanted to destroy…mmmmmmm…When its my time I hope I go to where Cardinal MIndszenty is,not PaulV1…(the cardinal was promised if he would leave the america embassy in Budapest,when he was rescued by brave Hungarian freedom fighters,that he would be allowed to return to his people…he was lied to and was never allowed to go back to his beloved homeland…the Christian who tugs at the oars hasn’t time to rock the boat!!!
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Woah, take a breath there! What the heck is the difference between ‘blest’ and ‘blessed’ - they’re the very same word, with an insignificant difference in spelling and pronunciation!

And you ‘earned’ the privilege of Holy Communion by going to confession because you were ‘intelligent’ and ‘courageous’? Firstly NO-ONE - EVER - earns the inestimable privilege of Holy Communion, none of us has a hope of doing so by any amount of confessions or anything else we could do. Secondly if you were genuinely intelligent and courageous you wouldn’t sin in the first place and so wouldn’t need to go to confession at all.

We go to confession because we’re stupid and cowardly sinners and for no better reason, and it’s totally misplaced to feel ‘intelligent’ and ‘courageous’ about confessing your sins.

As for your criticism of Paul VI - remember Christ’s words to the Apostles apply to their successors the Popes - ‘who rejects you rejects Me’. That sort of vicious criticism is rejection as well, my friend.
 
I have a preference for the TLM, but I also like the Pauline Mass and think that it will be around for quite a while. I do think that there will be some reform in order to bring it more into line with what the Council actually intended, and we are already seeing that to a small degree. What I would like to see (not that my opinions will have any impact on official liturgical decisions) are the following:
  1. Increased use of Latin- preferably in the Consecration, but at least in some of the common prayers/hyms such as the Gloria, Agnus Dei, and Sanctus. On the same note, I would also like to hear the Kyrie sung in Greek more often.
  2. Reintroduction of the prayers at the foot of the altar and the Final Gospel, as well as the blessing with holy water.
  3. More frequent, if not sole, use of the Roman Canon- to me, this is the most eloquent of the Eucharistic prayers and best expresses the Catholic faith (although prayer IV isn’t that bad either). Also, I would like to see a return to the 1962 Offertory prayer. For those who like the more explicit epicleses found in current Eucharistic prayers, the word “Sanctifier” could simply be changed to “Holy Spirit” in the last line of the offertory, or one of the modern epicleses could be added to the Canon.
  4. Stricter regulation of liturgical music, with more emphasis on Gregorian chant, polyphony, and the organ, while at the same time leaving room for theologically sound modern hyms.
  5. Communion kneeling (for those who are physically able) and on the tongue, maybe even by intinction (again, for those who are able, ie. not allergic/addicted to wheat/alcohol).
  6. Also, although not necessarily having to do with the style of liturgy, I would like to hear more homilies dealing with morality and doctrine and at least vaguely related to the readings.
Luckily, I think that we’re moving in that direction as more Catholics my age are becoming interested in tradition.
 
Fuerza,

For the most part, I think your points are great ideas. I also hope that the liturgy will move in this direction.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
No.
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I tend to agree. that 15 years. There is no doubt in my mind that the pauline Mass will eventually go away but it will be a very long long long time.

THere are certainly many places in the USA and around the world where the laity are not happy with the OF Mass.

The Vatican is not completely out of touch with the laity…eventually the OF will be investigated for changes.

If B16 lives longer than expected and stays “mentally” healthy I suspect he will look into Many changes.

If one reads his spirit of the Liturgy you be led to undstand what he thinks of the OF…and it isn’t good.
 
I dream of a day when there will be no abuses in the mass…wheather it be the Mass of Paul VI or another…

I dream of a day when all masses that i go to can be the same where i can look to my left and my right and see them paying attention to the mystery that is going on…on the altar
…

Ok well to answer you question…i think there will be another council…purely to correct a couple of thinks in the liturgy and to reinforce our beliefs as Catholic’s

Hopefully it would fix the problem of trying to look more protestant…

vatican III ???😃
 
THurifer2 said:
If one reads his spirit of the Liturgy you be led to undstand what he thinks of the OF…and it isn’t good.
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I did and I did not come away with this impression at all. He spoke very balanced of the good that it had and the bad.

As to the original post, no it will not be around in the same form. Even now we are looking at changing the wording somewhat. I believe we will likely see a few more changes. If the original intent is to imply that it will be scrapped in favor of the TLM and CAF survives, I would think it far more likely that there will be a thread on whether it will survive another 100 years than that it will be gone.
 
Maybe the better question should be whether it will be recognizeable 50 years from now. I’m sure it will be around in some form.
 
I think it will eventually be replaced by a revised Tridentine Liturgy, in line with the directives of the Council. This liturgy will emerge in an organic fashion - not as the product of a committee.

None of the prayers or theology of the Mass will be watered down, but there will be some vernacular and expanded readings, as was envisioned in Sacrosanctum Concilium. Hopefully, the revised rite will be “Bugnini-free”. I don’t expect this to happen in my lifetime, though, and I’m 20.
 
What an interesting thread.

Since becoming Catholic and learning about the two Mass forms, I’ve become convinced that within 50 years, we won’t see a Latin Mass. I think that once the generation of those who remember it are gone, it will be gone, too.

I’m not saying that out of any sense of triumph or snideness. I just think that’s what will happen.

Yes, I agree that there are pockets of Catholics, including young Catholics, who are interested in holding onto the traditional Mass.

But I think that there are many many more Catholics who are not interested in traditional Latin Mass, and would be very happy to have an abuse-free OF in their own heart language.

Our Bishop says that the main reason Pope Benedict XVI is working to keep Latin is because of the need to maintain excellent scholarship in Latin to be able to correctly study and translate the Scriptures, the writings of the Church fathers, etc. Makes sense to me.

But the Latin Mass doesn’t have to be around in order to have good scholarship in Latin, does it?

Again, everyone, I’m not trying to rain on your parade or do a happy dance or chortle over the superiority of the OF. I just think that the indicators point to the end of the Latin Mass in the world.
 
Cat said:
What an interesting thread.

Since becoming Catholic and learning about the two Mass forms, I’ve become convinced that within 50 years, we won’t see a Latin Mass.
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If I’m still alive in 50 years (which I should be), I guarantee you that there will be a Latin Mass. Hundreds of young men are in seminaries around the world preparing to say the Traditional Latin Mass for the rest of their lives, and in a couple of years, I’ll be one of them.
 
Cat said:
But the Latin Mass doesn’t have to be around in order to have good scholarship in Latin, does it?
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Paul VI promulgated his Missal in Latin so I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Is Latin the real issue here? Or the actual recognizeable texts between one copyrighted edition vs another?:confused:
 
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