Will the Tridentine Mass have a "renaissance" soon?

[EDKidd]

I think that as more younger men come into the priesthood it will begin to grow more. Today’s young priests seem to be more in touch with the traditional aspects of Catholicism than the middle aged/older priests.

For those near the ‘Dome of Home’ in the North West of England, Fr Montgomery, who is the newest and youngest (28 years old) priest for Shrewsbury Diocese, will be celebrating a Solemn High Mass on Sunday 13th October.

Well done to Fr Montgomery, who I believe is not formally trained in the Extraordinary Form and has been studying hard in preparation for this coming Sunday.

My own hopes echo those implied by GangGreen with regards to younger Priests such as Fr Montgomery, whose own willingness to learn how to celebrate the Latin Mass so soon after ordination, is a positive for all of us hoping for a greater balance between the EF and OF.

 

[SweetLambs]

I hope with all my heart that such happens, as the Tridentine Mass is the most beautiful thing on this side of Heaven!

 

[ProVobis]

Our Pastor added an EF Mass shortly after Summorium Pontificum came out. He spent a week with the priests of St. John Cantius in Chicago to learn it.

Interestingly enough, the Canons of St. John Cantius will be at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit next week, offering instruction on the EF Mass to the seminarians and to any diocesan priests who are interested.

Several years ago Fr. Frank Phillips told the congregation in one of his sermons that Cardinal George had asked them to begin training in the EF to anyone who asked for it. It has been part of their mission since.

 

[Seamus_L]

The Society Of St John Cantius has also trained priests in Poland and Lithuania to say the TLM.

 

[BeOurDefense]

Our parish has the Traditional Latin Mass a couple days a week, and it is very well attended, to the point where the pastor is seriously considering replacing one of the Sunday Novus Ordo Masses next. It only has to be offered, and it will attract people. People can’t want what they don’t know exists, and they can’t know it exists unless they’re exposed to it. And the average age at these Masses is probably below 35 years old. So actually, I think we’ve been experiencing a budding renaissance since 2007 when Benedict XVI allowed wider use of this form. Like with any good thing, it takes time, and more and more young seminarians are learning this form of the Mass alongside the Novus Ordo. In time, they will become pastors and bishops, and I think we will really start to notice the renaissance over the next 20-30 years.

 

[JReducation]

In a conversation that I had with one of our brothers who celebrates the EF he said something very important. He does not like to “market” the EF. Meaning that he does not tell people that he knows how to celebrate it, that he does celebrate it on occasions and that they should ask for it.

His point is very valid. He said that SP made clarified that it had never been abrogated. It did not encourage us to make it the norm. The Holy Father deliberately used the term “forma extraordinaria”. Pope Benedict was a scholar. Scholars are very careful about being precise with their language. Brother points out that the term “extraordinary” was a message to those who want to use the Tridentine Form that this is not the norm for the Latin Church. There is nothing in SP that encourages the amplified use of the EF. He compares it to married clergy in the Latin Rite. It is possible and it is being done. Married clergy who convert to Catholicism are being ordained Catholic priests. This is not the norm for the Latin Church and it should not be amplified, just because it was the norm once upon a time. It is extraordinary and should remain extraordinary until such time as a pope decides that it should be normative, if he ever does so.

In any case, I thought that his points were well made and worth sharing.

He made a few other observations that I had not stopped to think about. I like both forms, as well as our own Franciscan form. That’s not an issue with me. But then again, our version of the EF is not quite what you would see in an FSSP parish. Franciscans make some changes to it according to our tradition. I like the way we do it. One thing that I like about the way we celebrate the EF is that we have the option to have a dialogue mass. It’s up to the superior. He can order it. The priest may not whisper and the congregation has to respond instead of having servers respond. I do like the dialogue.

As I was saying, Brother pointed something out to me that I had not stopped to think about. He does not like to have people in his congregation who make a distinction between the EF and the OF. The distinction that he’s talking about is the use of the word “rite”. The Tridentine is not a rite. It’s a form of the Roman Rite. He will ask anyone to leave his mass, if he knows that they think this way, because they are not thinking with the Church. He’s of the opinion that one who does not think and feel with the Church has not right to be at mass where we come as one community to offer the sacrifice.

Another of his concerns is affiliations. When he and I were talking about opening our chapel door to laypeople who would want to attend an EF, he asked me how we were going to filter out those who are sympathetic to the SSPX or those who hold similar views. He pointed out that one of the conditions that the Holy Father specified in UE is that the EF not be celebrated for such groups.

He has some other little things that are not as serious, but are important to him and I would imagine to many priests. Some people make it their “habit” to police the mass. They sit there counting how many times the priest makes the sign of the cross, whether he says or omits a word and whether he wears a Roman chasuble or a Fiddleback. We don’t have fiddlebacks in our house and are not getting any. We have one chasuble of each color and that’s it. Those things are not cheap and the fiddleback is not necessary for the EF to be Tridentine. That was a particular style, but it was not the only style. However, there are people who would be upset if the brother didn’t wear a fiddleback or an amice. We don’t wear amices. That’s not mandatory for Franciscans. They never have been. It goes by provinces, not as a general rule.

But the idea of celebrating a mass while under the microscope is annoying. Brother says, “You want the congregation to be with you, not to be looking over your shoulder.”

I’ll tell you where he’s coming from. He has read many sites on the Internet and has been discouraged by the way that people speak about the EF and about their priests. As it stands right now, he celebrates it for the community on special occasions and rarely for the general public, because of the marketing, the affiliations that some people have and the scrutinizing.

We have to be very sensitive to these things also. It’s important that when you have a priest who can celebrate the EF, your goals and your vision are not in conflict with his. Otherwise, the relationship is not going to flourish. The EF will have a very short lifespan in that parish.

 

[Reborn2013]

I would not be surprised if in 100 years TLM is the norm and the NO is nothing more than a historical curiosity.

 

[JReducation]

I would not be surprised if in 100 years TLM is the norm and the NO is nothing more than a historical curiosity.

I don’t see the Holy See allowing that to happen. How do you see the Holy See allowing this?

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I don’t see the Holy See allowing that to happen. How do you see the Holy See allowing this?

If it became evident that the younger generations overwhelmingly preferred the TLM, then wouldn’t that be a “prudential decision” on the part of the pastors of the Church? However, this is not currently the case and, like you, I don’t see it happening at least anytime soon.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I would not be surprised if in 100 years TLM is the norm and the NO is nothing more than a historical curiosity.

I don’t believe this is the case because I don’t believe God would will a council for no reason. I do not believe the OF will go away, nor should it; however, I do believe there will be a reform and a clarification of Vatican II so as to squash the problem many are having. I’m currently reading “This is the Mass, New and Revised” by Henri Daniel-Rops, Celebrated by Ven. Fulton J. Sheen. In the book the Ven. Fulton J. Sheen celebrates the Mass according to the Liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council and I must say that I pray to one day see the OF celebrated in a way Holy Mother Church wanted and not just in a way Holy Mother Church has allowed.

 

[ProVobis]

I would not be surprised if in 100 years TLM is the norm and the NO is nothing more than a historical curiosity.

My pastor seems to think along this way too. When 95% of your English Mass congregation is over 55 yrs of age how else can you think? Even a retranslation didn’t seem to do it much good. New communicants just aren’t coming back.

OTOH, you’ll find a much younger crowd at the Spanish Masses. I don’t see its demise in the near future.

 

[moon1234]

1. One must factor in that no priest is obliged to do the extraordinary. Actually parish priests ARE to provide for the requests of a group (which can be as few as two people). If they are unable to do so because of lack of knowledge they are to request help from the Bishop who should provide for them. If that does not happen they are to write Rome who will send a Priest. This is all spelled out in SP and UE. Just because a priest knows how to celebrate the EF, he is not bound to celebrate it. While true, it is not in keeping the “mens” of the Holy Father according to UE, which we should assume all Priests wish to honor. Some priests have a knee-jerk reaction to the notion that they must celebrate it, because they know it. I know some young priests who, typical of the young, have locked in their brakes and have said that they will never celebrate the EF. When asked why not? Their answer is simple. They will not be told what to do by the laity. The laity has to learn to request, beg, negotiate, bargain, you name it. But if you demand, some people are going to shut down.
2. Then there is the issue of relationships. Many of the laity in our area are SSPX supporters. The Holy Father (Benedict) said that request from laymen who belong to these groups should not be given the EF. This is NOT what the Holy Father said. The intent was that people are not attached to these societies with an intent to avoid Rome. Being a member of the SSPX is ONLY possible for the Priests and Bishops of the SSPX. laity are not formal members. It is only those that reject Rome that are being addressed by the Holy Father. This was in the letter that followed SP. You can find it for yourself. Superiors of religious priests are hesitant to lend their priests to groups that are sympathetic to groups whose relationship with the Church is in a state of flux. Religious superiors and priests don’t want to appear as if we’re supportive of such groups, while we very much care about the laymen. But until the laymen pull way way back from those groups, there is a hesitation. We don’t want to be guilty by association. This is a serious mistake if this is the thinking of religious Priests. It hardens the hearts of those who attend the SPPX Masses because the EF is not available elsewhere. A better response, one used in our parish, is to welcome ALL those who seek the EF. The good example our Priest shows to all of those who attend the EF has helped many people who are “attached to the SSPX” to actually routinely come to the parish EF AND to seek the sacraments from the local Bishop and Priest. Weddings, Confirmations, etc. The welcoming attitude of the secular or religious Priest towards all those who desire the EF is what will win souls for heaven. Pitting the EF against the OF would be no different that pitting the Spanish OF Mass against the English, etc.
3. There is also the question of cleaning up the nonsense that has taken place in the OF. Having the EF is fine, but that does not resolve the nonsense in the OF. Pastors, bishops and religious superiors want to do this as well. They want to encourage priests and laity alike to get it right.

These and many other points have to be considered when making requests for the TLM. My suggestion has always been to offer assistance with the OF and the OF community. Don’t make your request sound as if you’re above the mainstream Catholic. First of all, we’re not.

The same attitude has to be adopted by the Traditionalist layman who aspires for an EF mass at his parish. He has to see himself as part of the local Church, not above or to the side. In those parishes where the EF is celebrated, it has succeeded, because the people who attend the EF limit themselves to that. Everything else they do with the parish community and they follow the mainstream in all other matters. They have the same CCD classes, the same marriage preparation classes. They do not use the older books for Baptisms. They go through the same baptismal and confirmation rite with everyone else. Actually SP says that ALL sacraments are to be made available to those who seek them. ** I would disagree that requesting Baptism AND confirmation according to the Roman Ritual and the Pontificale Romanum are somehow setting people apart in a parish. In many, including my own, many people are enriched by the older form of the sacraments and want them for their own children. This pitting of traditional against modern is exactly what we do NOT want. Both can easily co-exist in a Parish.** Weddings are different, because weddings are not done in groups. You have flexibility there. If the priest or deacon knows the older marriage rite, you can ask for it.

There is resistance in the mainstream, but there has to be some flexibility among those who want to see the EF in a parish. I think it’s very important to be an active member of a parish. When a person does not actively participate in a parish and then asks for the EF, it comes off the wrong way. It comes off as “holier than thou”. I don’t think that’s the impression that we want to give.

 

[moon1234]

I don’t see the Holy See allowing that to happen. How do you see the Holy See allowing this?

I think it would be a gradual transformation. I don’t think the NO will be replaced like the Tridentine was in the late 1960’s. That caused too much turmoil and too many to loose their faith. I think it will be similar to what happened after Trent. Those forms that had existed for 100 years or more were allowed to continue. Those older forms slowly died out due to non-use. They still exist in some remote enclaves, but for most intents and purposes are no longer used.

The N.O as experienced today in most parishes is not much different from a protestant service. The EF is a jarring experience for someone who comes from a N.O parish that has taken every liberty possible and run with it. As these liberties continue to expand in so many parishes without any correction from the Bishop the young faithful see Mass as a community gathering and not the sacrifice to God that it is. They see no difference between being Catholic, Luthern, Anglican, etc. Faith becomes relative and eventually they loose their faith.

This can easily be seen in MANY countries around the world, especially in Brazil and other traditionally Catholic countries. The last three decades have seen the largest drop in Church attendance in these countries in the last 100 years. Most of the drop is among the young people in the country.

I believe that simple attrition will be what will replace the N.O with the E.F. I see it in many of the young families around me. More and more are coming to the E.F. They are in love with this form of the Mass, it’s direct connection with so many of the saints of the last millenium, etc.

That is how I see this type of transformation happening. I don’t believe the magisterium will allow this until we have reached a point where all of the members who were alive during or recently after VII are dead. Only then will the personal stake in VII at an individual level be gone and critical analysis of what was actually requested, with regards to the liturgy, be undertaken. By this point though I think that the N.O. will be so different from the EF that they will seem like different rites from all outward appearances.

 

[BeOurDefense]

I think it would be a gradual transformation. I don’t think the NO will be replaced like the Tridentine was in the late 1960’s. That caused too much turmoil and too many to loose their faith. I think it will be similar to what happened after Trent. Those forms that had existed for 100 years or more were allowed to continue. Those older forms slowly died out due to non-use. They still exist in some remote enclaves, but for most intents and purposes are no longer used.

The N.O as experienced today in most parishes is not much different from a protestant service. The EF is a jarring experience for someone who comes from a N.O parish that has taken every liberty possible and run with it. As these liberties continue to expand in so many parishes without any correction from the Bishop the young faithful see Mass as a community gathering and not the sacrifice to God that it is. They see no difference between being Catholic, Luthern, Anglican, etc. Faith becomes relative and eventually they loose their faith.

This can easily be seen in MANY countries around the world, especially in Brazil and other traditionally Catholic countries. The last three decades have seen the largest drop in Church attendance in these countries in the last 100 years. Most of the drop is among the young people in the country.

I believe that simple attrition will be what will replace the N.O with the E.F. I see it in many of the young families around me. More and more are coming to the E.F. They are in love with this form of the Mass, it’s direct connection with so many of the saints of the last millenium, etc.

That is how I see this type of transformation happening. I don’t believe the magisterium will allow this until we have reached a point where all of the members who were alive during or recently after VII are dead. Only then will the personal stake in VII at an individual level be gone and critical analysis of what was actually requested, with regards to the liturgy, be undertaken. By this point though I think that the N.O. will be so different from the EF that they will seem like different rites from all outward appearances.

Exactly.

 

[BeOurDefense]

I forgot to add that Fr. Z. often refers to that phenomenon as the “biological solution” (which, to keep us humble, is at work on all of us).

 

[1AugustSon7]

I think it would be a gradual transformation. I don’t think the NO will be replaced like the Tridentine was in the late 1960’s. That caused too much turmoil and too many to loose their faith. I think it will be similar to what happened after Trent. Those forms that had existed for 100 years or more were allowed to continue. Those older forms slowly died out due to non-use. They still exist in some remote enclaves, but for most intents and purposes are no longer used.

The N.O as experienced today in most parishes is not much different from a protestant service. The EF is a jarring experience for someone who comes from a N.O parish that has taken every liberty possible and run with it. As these liberties continue to expand in so many parishes without any correction from the Bishop the young faithful see Mass as a community gathering and not the sacrifice to God that it is. They see no difference between being Catholic, Luthern, Anglican, etc. Faith becomes relative and eventually they loose their faith.

This can easily be seen in MANY countries around the world, especially in Brazil and other traditionally Catholic countries. The last three decades have seen the largest drop in Church attendance in these countries in the last 100 years. Most of the drop is among the young people in the country.

I believe that simple attrition will be what will replace the N.O with the E.F. I see it in many of the young families around me. More and more are coming to the E.F. They are in love with this form of the Mass, it’s direct connection with so many of the saints of the last millenium, etc.

That is how I see this type of transformation happening. I don’t believe the magisterium will allow this until we have reached a point where all of the members who were alive during or recently after VII are dead. Only then will the personal stake in VII at an individual level be gone and critical analysis of what was actually requested, with regards to the liturgy, be undertaken. By this point though I think that the N.O. will be so different from the EF that they will seem like different rites from all outward appearances.

The strength of the OF is its adaptability; but, of course, that’s also why it can be so easily abused. Notwithstanding, I do not believe that the Church will abandon a treasure on account of its sometimes being badly used by some. Such things can be corrected and I think the reform of the reform has gone a long way in strengthening the integrity of the OF.

The OF makes plain the goodness and joy of the Church’s faith. Both forms have their strengths. Personally, what I think we will really see - and what Pope emeritus Benedict perhaps wanted to see - is a renaissance of the OF. I think that was his hope in his suggestions of a hybrid form: bringing out the best in and from both forms for the Church’s spiritual enrichment. We need to balance both joy and reverence; truth, goodness and beauty.

What we are experiencing, in my opinion, is something like growing pains. In time the seed will blossom - this I do no doubt. Some sowed, but others will reap.

 

[JackyB]

I think it would be a gradual transformation. I don’t think the NO will be replaced like the Tridentine was in the late 1960’s. That caused too much turmoil and too many to loose their faith. I think it will be similar to what happened after Trent. Those forms that had existed for 100 years or more were allowed to continue. Those older forms slowly died out due to non-use. They still exist in some remote enclaves, but for most intents and purposes are no longer used.

The N.O as experienced today in most parishes is not much different from a protestant service. The EF is a jarring experience for someone who comes from a N.O parish that has taken every liberty possible and run with it. As these liberties continue to expand in so many parishes without any correction from the Bishop the young faithful see Mass as a community gathering and not the sacrifice to God that it is. They see no difference between being Catholic, Luthern, Anglican, etc. Faith becomes relative and eventually they loose their faith.

This can easily be seen in MANY countries around the world, especially in Brazil and other traditionally Catholic countries. The last three decades have seen the largest drop in Church attendance in these countries in the last 100 years. Most of the drop is among the young people in the country.

I believe that simple attrition will be what will replace the N.O with the E.F. I see it in many of the young families around me. More and more are coming to the E.F. They are in love with this form of the Mass, it’s direct connection with so many of the saints of the last millenium, etc.

That is how I see this type of transformation happening. I don’t believe the magisterium will allow this until we have reached a point where all of the members who were alive during or recently after VII are dead. Only then will the personal stake in VII at an individual level be gone and critical analysis of what was actually requested, with regards to the liturgy, be undertaken. By this point though I think that the N.O. will be so different from the EF that they will seem like different rites from all outward appearances.

Excellent insight and analysis

 

[Brendan_64]

There is too much ‘opposition’ to the EF Mass amongst some bishops and priests to allow it to have a ‘renaissance’. If it was available at ordinary parishes, even on just a monthly basis, it would (in my opinion) be well attended.

 

[pnewton]

Wasn’t this also true in 1969? Did a “majority of the people” want to get rid of the Mass as they, and their ancestors for a millennium, knew it? If the vernacular Mass could be imposed in the 60’s, so can the TLM be imposed today.

Sure it could be imposed, but why would a bishop do something extraordinary when if he thought it would would be counter productive or pointless?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Wasn’t this also true in 1969? Did a “majority of the people” want to get rid of the Mass as they, and their ancestors for a millennium, knew it? If the vernacular Mass could be imposed in the 60’s, so can the TLM be imposed today.

The OF is not the “vernacular Mass”, it is the Mass which can be said in the vernacular. Likewise the OF CAN also be said in Latin; however, sadly a lot of people have this outlook that if you want a Latin Mass you should go only to the EF and leave the OF out of it. This is an outlook which would make Pope Paul VI do a facepalm.