Will there be EC in America in 40 years?

[Madaglan]

It’s funny, but for all the times I’ve heard the online stories of traditional RC’s coming into EC churches and offending people, I’ve seldom seen the one’s where it was OICWR crowd offending the cradle EC’s (and I know it happens) with disparaging comments about the church’s ethnic flavor being too strong. Sometimes you just have to ask the question, if ethnic parishes are such a bad thing, how can you explain the success of the very ethnic Greek Orthodox churches, who often put on bigger and better festivals-carnivals than the much larger nearby RC parish.

Probably because ethnic food is something you cannot easily get at your local market. Going to a Greek or Slavic festival is a multi-sensory experience. Regular bake sales generally do not offer this.

 

[Spelling]

Our vocation as Eastern Catholics is to disappear. We should be working towards being reabsorbed into our mother churches (Orthodox). So hopefully within the next 40 years or so we will have disappeared.

Is that before or after said church re/enter into perfect communion with the Pope of Rome?

 

[Spelling]

It’s funny, but for all the times I’ve heard the online stories of traditional RC’s coming into EC churches and offending people, I’ve seldom seen the one’s where it was OICWR crowd offending the cradle EC’s (and I know it happens) with disparaging comments about the church’s ethnic flavor being too strong. Sometimes you just have to ask the question, if ethnic parishes are such a bad thing, how can you explain the success of the very ethnic Greek Orthodox churches, who often put on bigger and better festivals-carnivals than the much larger nearby RC parish.

Is that how you gauge the health of a parish?

 

[Spelling]

Probably because ethnic food is something you cannot easily get at your local market. Going to a Greek or Slavic festival is a multi-sensory experience. Regular bake sales generally do not offer this.

And it would seem the Greeks have a HUGE lead when it comes to tasty food that outsiders want to purchase and cultural events they want to experience.

 

[Lujack]

Is that how you gauge the health of a parish?

Its an indirect barometer. If the parish community is committed to its festivals, then its likely that they are also committed to the parish. This is especially the case if you see families from the parish running stands-it means a community exists, and that’s an important thing.

I mean, it certainly is possible to have a great parish and a great community with no festivals, and a terrible one with large festivals, but there is a correlation.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

This is likely a minority opinion, but I doubt that would be a good idea.

All of the Eastern and Oriental Churches were born of their various and particular ethnic cultures, and without same they would never have survived. If one tries to “Americanize” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) them, the culture will be killed.

Take away the ethno-cultural heritage, and the result will be another “American” hamburger: it looks like meat, but its contents are questionable (to put it nicely), and when put to the test, it falls apart. There’s sufficient blandness in American “culture” (just as in “American” (or “Canadian”) food) already. We certainly don’t need more. IOW, one Novus Ordo is more than enough.

How long does one think such a Church (or Churches), separated from its roots, would last? Yes I know all the “oh, it’s the Eastern spirituality that’s important” and other such things, but those arguments only go so far. I still say kill the culture, kill the Church.

Just my unsolicited :twocents:

The Russian and other Slavic Churches, along with the Romanians, have gotten along just fine for centuries despite the almost complete abandonment of Greek in their Liturgies, along with some cultural adaptations (such as Molebens). The Ukrainian Church is also thriving, despite its preference for the vernacular Ukrainian in its Liturgies instead of Church Slavonic (not I’m not saying that Church Slavonic has beein completely abandoned by the Ukrainians). The Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox are still alive and kicking, despite their preference for Arabic (and the sad state of affairs in the Middle-East) Is it impossible for Eastern or Oriental Liturgies to thrive in languages other than their original language? History seems to say that such is far from the case. The Church, whether Universal or Particular, is not an ethnic club. Does that mean that we ignore the history of our particular Churches? Of course not. Does it mean that we do not respect the ethnic heritage of our particular Churches? By no means. What it does mean, however, is that ethnicity ought not to be a stumbling-block for unity, whether that unity be among the ECs themselves, the EOs themselves, or between Eastern and Western Christianity. The Gospel always comes first. “In Christ there is no longer Jew or Greek” (or Russian, or Ukrainian, or Romanian, or Arab, etc.). We are all one in him, and ought to live as such, while also respecting our national differences.

 

[Hesychios]

The problem with that in Eastern Europe is that the ROC asserts that EC’s should return to it as their Mother Church.

And the ROC is not the Mother Church of those Orthodox of the Kyivan and other Churches that came into union with Rome in 1596, 1700 and later.

I agree with you.

The ROC / MP is not the mother church of the K’yivan/Ruthenians. Even as Orthodox they should have their own church structure, I would think.

I have been wondering though, do any of the UGCC parishes in Ukraine use the Nikonian form of the liturgy? The Belarussian mission in Chicago (long gone now) used the Synodal/Nikonian form, which indicates to me that they probably originate from the more recent Solovyev movement, not the Union of Brest (a city of Belarus).

The question here is about the extent to which the EC’s can culturally adapt to North America so that when its members assimilate into mainstream society, they don’t reject their Eastern Catholic identity as part and parcel of that process.

Quite the challenge, but we have seen examples of that right here at CAF. It’s going to happen to many.

Perhaps it is true that if the EC experience can be lived in its entirety in English, this will go a long way.

I am absolutely convinced that the EC experience can be lived in its entirety in English. In fact I have always felt that it could flourish.
the EC experience can be lived in its entirety in English

But I suspect that there are many who would pine for the cultural experience of their EC background as well.

There is always that possibility, but most converts to Latin Catholicism would not pine for the “Italian” or “Spanish” experience, I would think, so I would expect that to be likewise for people ‘going east’. Although I have seen people who I think went ‘whole hog’ for everything culturally eastern when they converted, I think they are the exception rather than the rule.

It can be a joyous experience to become part of an ethnically centered parish, as many would attest. But it can also be alienating.

Blessings,

 

[dzheremi]

This is likely a minority opinion, but I doubt that would be a good idea.

All of the Eastern and Oriental Churches were born of their various and particular ethnic cultures, and without same they would never have survived. If one tries to “Americanize” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) them, the culture will be killed.

Take away the ethno-cultural heritage, and the result will be another “American” hamburger: it looks like meat, but its contents are questionable (to put it nicely), and when put to the test, it falls apart. There’s sufficient blandness in American “culture” (just as in “American” (or “Canadian”) food) already. We certainly don’t need more. IOW, one Novus Ordo is more than enough.

How long does one think such a Church (or Churches), separated from its roots, would last? Yes I know all the “oh, it’s the Eastern spirituality that’s important” and other such things, but those arguments only go so far. I still say kill the culture, kill the Church.

Just my unsolicited :twocents:

This is sooooo right, it hurts (and I’m not just saying that because I am apparently obligated to agree with Malphono). I have had the incredibly strange experience lately of arguing essentially this with Copts in North America who think it is “cruel” to maintain the Coptic language in their liturgical hymns, and that the “ethnic” nature of their church will drive away newcomers/non-Egyptians. Essentially they are right about the last part, but they are forgetting that as it IS the spirituality that matters, people who want that spirituality and find it in the Coptic Church won’t be deterred. Certainly the Coptic liturgy (or any other liturgy) can and is prayed in English (and many other languages of the diaspora), but there is something to be said about keeping the traditional language and culture of the particular church in question, alongside whatever other language might be used.

If you are so quick to want to discard the traditional culture in which the liturgy took root and was maintained for centuries, then you should not be surprised when not only do outsiders bypass your church (a lot of people wouldn’t admit it, but for many it is still “too ethnic” if it is not white), but so do your own youth, who see no reason to stay involved in something that so closely mirrors the wider society which is similarly rootless.

 

[malphono]

The Russian and other Slavic Churches, along with the Romanians, have gotten along just fine for centuries despite the almost complete abandonment of Greek in their Liturgies, along with some cultural adaptations (such as Molebens). The Ukrainian Church is also thriving, despite its preference for the vernacular Ukrainian in its Liturgies instead of Church Slavonic (not I’m not saying that Church Slavonic has beein completely abandoned by the Ukrainians). The Melkites and Antiochian Orthodox are still alive and kicking, despite their preference for Arabic (and the sad state of affairs in the Middle-East) Is it impossible for Eastern or Oriental Liturgies to thrive in languages other than their original language? History seems to say that such is far from the case. The Church, whether Universal or Particular, is not an ethnic club. Does that mean that we ignore the history of our particular Churches? Of course not. Does it mean that we do not respect the ethnic heritage of our particular Churches? By no means. What it does mean, however, is that ethnicity ought not to be a stumbling-block for unity, whether that unity be among the ECs themselves, the EOs themselves, or between Eastern and Western Christianity. The Gospel always comes first. “In Christ there is no longer Jew or Greek” (or Russian, or Ukrainian, or Romanian, or Arab, etc.). We are all one in him, and ought to live as such, while also respecting our national differences.

I didn’t mention language specifically, but yes, that’s part of it.

 

[malphono]

This is sooooo right, it hurts (and I’m not just saying that because I am apparently obligated to agree with Malphono).

I have had the incredibly strange experience lately of arguing essentially this with Copts in North America who think it is “cruel” to maintain the Coptic language in their liturgical hymns, and that the “ethnic” nature of their church will drive away newcomers/non-Egyptians. Essentially they are right about the last part, but they are forgetting that as it IS the spirituality that matters, people who want that spirituality and find it in the Coptic Church won’t be deterred. Certainly the Coptic liturgy (or any other liturgy) can and is prayed in English (and many other languages of the diaspora), but there is something to be said about keeping the traditional language and culture of the particular church in question, alongside whatever other language might be used.

If you are so quick to want to discard the traditional culture in which the liturgy took root and was maintained for centuries, then you should not be surprised when not only do outsiders bypass your church (a lot of people wouldn’t admit it, but for many it is still “too ethnic” if it is not white), but so do your own youth, who see no reason to stay involved in something that so closely mirrors the wider society which is similarly rootless.

Yes, indeed. As I said in my previous post, language is part of the equation here.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That probably won’t happen. What should happen is a cultural adaptation of EC Churches to North American mainstream culture (sans the liberalism in values etc.).

Our local Coptic Orthodox parish of St Mark of Alexandria has an English-language Liturgy and I know a Chinese neighbour of mine who attends, has become Coptic Orthodox and reads the daily, long Agpeya horological prayers in English.

They are quite beautiful and are available online, as you know: www.agpeya.org

Alex

We have English Liturgy and its not attracting many people. Its hard to get people to see past the ethnicity of an Eastern parish. If it weren’t for my strong desire for the Byzantine Rite, I wouldn’t even have dared to step into an Ukrainian Church. Thats the tall wall to climb that many never even dare to.

I think Eastern parishes just concern themselves too much within their own ethnic group. I mean the programs, the thrust, the target is always them. They are welcoming of other people but they end up there just because it happens to be, not because there was a conscious effort to draw other people in. Take BC for example, we don’t have as many Ukrainians as Manitoba or Ontario. Plus most of them are way up there in age. They can’t hope for Ukrainians to just reproduce at a faster rate, or have a higher immigration rate to BC to fill up the parishes. On the other hand, the RC parishes are filled with Filipinos, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, etc.

The Eastern Churches should enter a “globalization” the same way the Roman Church did at the Age of Discovery. The countries which are the homeland of many of these Eastern Churches have low birthrates and thus they’re not repopulating. I believe many people are more open to receive the God’s word in the form of the Byzantine Rite. Its time that the Eastern faith be brought to the ends of the earth. The Bishops and the priests should realize that and work towards growing their flock beyond their ethnic heritage.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

We have English Liturgy and its not attracting many people. Its hard to get people to see past the ethnicity of an Eastern parish. If it weren’t for my strong desire for the Byzantine Rite, I wouldn’t even have dared to step into an Ukrainian Church. Thats the tall wall to climb that many never even dare to.

I think Eastern parishes just concern themselves too much within their own ethnic group. I mean the programs, the thrust, the target is always them. They are welcoming of other people but they end up there just because it happens to be, not because there was a conscious effort to draw other people in. Take BC for example, we don’t have as many Ukrainians as Manitoba or Ontario. Plus most of them are way up there in age. They can’t hope for Ukrainians to just reproduce at a faster rate, or have a higher immigration rate to BC to fill up the parishes. On the other hand, the RC parishes are filled with Filipinos, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, etc.

The Eastern Churches should enter a “globalization” the same way the Roman Church did at the Age of Discovery. The countries which are the homeland of many of these Eastern Churches have low birthrates and thus they’re not repopulating. I believe many people are more open to receive the God’s word in the form of the Byzantine Rite. Its time that the Eastern faith be brought to the ends of the earth. The Bishops and the priests should realize that and work towards growing their flock beyond their ethnic heritage.

Very good and insightful observations sir!

Alex

 

[ConstantineTG]

Very good and insightful observations sir!

Alex

Its my personal opinion and observation. I’d gladly do some legwork for the Church to help. But from where I stand, I don’t see there’s such a conscious effort to attract converts from other faiths and ethnicity. I hope its just a limited view from my perspective thats giving me this impression.

I just got back from a 3 week vacation from the Philippines. What concerns me is the rise of the “born again movement” or all these little “Bible-only” groups. What was once a 90% Catholic country is falling away from the Catholic faith little by little. I know that a fresh perspective on the faith would fit many, the Eastern faith will bring back many to the true faith. I’m hoping and praying that the Ukrainian Church would come and establish in the Philippines, and hoping the CBCP is open to it. I know the Antiochian Orthodox is already there. Thanks to the internet, there is already a growing awareness on the Eastern Catholic faith and many want to get that taste of it. I pray the Ukrainian Church or another Byzantine Rite Catholic Church would oblige my homeland.

 

[ciero]

We have English Liturgy and its not attracting many people. Its hard to get people to see past the ethnicity of an Eastern parish. If it weren’t for my strong desire for the Byzantine Rite, I wouldn’t even have dared to step into an Ukrainian Church. Thats the tall wall to climb that many never even dare to.

I think Eastern parishes just concern themselves too much within their own ethnic group. I mean the programs, the thrust, the target is always them. They are welcoming of other people but they end up there just because it happens to be, not because there was a conscious effort to draw other people in. Take BC for example, we don’t have as many Ukrainians as Manitoba or Ontario. Plus most of them are way up there in age. They can’t hope for Ukrainians to just reproduce at a faster rate, or have a higher immigration rate to BC to fill up the parishes. On the other hand, the RC parishes are filled with Filipinos, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, etc.

The Eastern Churches should enter a “globalization” the same way the Roman Church did at the Age of Discovery. The countries which are the homeland of many of these Eastern Churches have low birthrates and thus they’re not repopulating. I believe many people are more open to receive the God’s word in the form of the Byzantine Rite. Its time that the Eastern faith be brought to the ends of the earth. The Bishops and the priests should realize that and work towards growing their flock beyond their ethnic heritage.

When I’m not traveling…which is much to much right now……I often attend Divine Liturgy at Holy Resurrection Monastery in S. California. The congregation at Divine Liturgy on any given Sunday is at least 80% hispanic…there are NO ethnic byzantines other then Abbot Nicholas. So I do believe that we Byzantines do have something to offer the West…and that non ethnic folks are attracted to it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

When I’m not traveling…which is much to much right now……I often attend Divine Liturgy at Holy Resurrection Monastery in S. California. The congregation at Divine Liturgy on any given Sunday is at least 80% hispanic…there are NO ethnic byzantines other then Abbot Nicholas. So I do believe that we Byzantines do have something to offer the West…and that non ethnic folks are attracted to it.

Definitely! The Byzantine Rite is Christianity’s best kept secret, and it should be a secret no longer to the rest of the world. I’m actually a bit envious when I read how the Ruthenian Church has progressed in the US. While owning the “Byzantine Catholic” name is contentious among other Byzantines, its a good “marketing” move which the issue of ethnicity is overcome. Some people I’ve come across think that the Ukrainian Church is nothing more than a Roman Catholic Church for Ukrainians in the Ukrainian language. One even pointed me to the FSSP parish because they thought I was just after Liturgy in a foreign language Of course I promptly corrected that person that the Liturgy is in English and the Liturgy is indeed a different expression than the Roman Mass.

The Byzantine Rite indeed has a great appeal. I just hope that the direction of the Churches that carry this tradition is towards bringing it to the whole world, and not just those who grew up with it.

 

[Aramis]

So establishing something sort of a “North American Church” is probably the solution?

The Ruthenian GCC essentially has done so… and everyone outside it seems to take umbrage that it’s done so…

 

[JW55]

I sincerely hope the Eastern Catholic Church continues in the future. I have been to a few and found them to be a blessing and another expression of the Catholic faith. I think there is much to be gained by Latin Catholics seeking to learn more about the Universiality of the Church. It is a shame that most are small and there isn’t more effort to made to make Latin Catholics aware of their existence and importance.

 

[ciero]

The Ruthenian GCC essentially has done so… and everyone outside it seems to take umbrage that it’s done so…

I don’t think that people outside the Ruthenian church have a problem with an American church…where the problem comes in is this…the Ruthenians created this “American” church on their own…no consultation with anyone else…why didn’t they work to create an American Byzantine Church with the rest of the American Byzantines (Melkites, Ukrainians & Romanians)? The Ruthenians bishops of the past were not known for “playing well with others”. It was going to be their way or no way, even to the extent that the last bishop of Phoenix demanded that the Italo-Greek parish in Las Vegas sing Ruthenian music. The idea of an American Church that was inclusive of Ukrainians and ARABS was just to much!!

 

[countertenor]

I don’t think that people outside the Ruthenian church have a problem with an American church…where the problem comes in is this…the Ruthenians created this “American” church on their own…no consultation with anyone else…why didn’t they work to create an American Byzantine Church with the rest of the American Byzantines (Melkites, Ukrainians & Romanians)? The Ruthenians bishops of the past were not known for “playing well with others”. It was going to be their way or no way, even to the extent that the last bishop of Phoenix demanded that the Italo-Greek parish in Las Vegas sing Ruthenian music. The idea of an American Church that was inclusive of Ukrainians and ARABS was just to much!!

We should work to change that.

 

[dvdjs]

We should work to change that.

Perhaps we should first assess reality of ciero’s comment. Right off the bat, one thing that can be said is how relatively and exceedingly rare are the occasions in which we see Ruthenians complaining about the activities of other particular churches.

It is, of course, true, that in the early days in this country, there was division between the Ukrainians and “us”. In fact this division was already consolidated within brotherhoods decades before it was reflected in separate jurisdictions with different bishops. That is regrettable to some extent, but the Ukrainians had a clear poltical-ethnic, which to their credit, helped eventually lead to the formation of Ukrainian nation. We were not part of that, and, in fact, our own sense of national identity was murky. That separation may have been inevitable, at that time. Does it lingering effects? Perhaps. It would be great to work better together.

What of our use of “Byzantine”? In the old country we were Greek Catholics. That led, genuinely, to confusion with ethnic Greeks here. The shift to “Byzantine” was made. Was there a hue an cry about this shift from others who use the Byzantine rite? Maybe, but I haven’t seen or heard any such complaints until very recently. And I see Russians, Romanians, and others shifting to this usage too. I have not heard of any multilateral discussions on this new usage, nor any complaint about it whatsoever. IMO, this complaint is a red herring.

Was this shift connected to forging an American identity? Probably not. “Byzantine” is not exactly American. I think that any church could and should choose to highlight their ethnic origins however they like. I cannot see why this should be a multilateral affair. I am happy for this rather sensitive matter to be handled by each particular church. And I certainly do not begrudge efforts by bishops in particular churches to handle this matter, or to regulate the manner in which divine services are conducted under them; that is what bishops do.

Even so, there is room for cooperation. We have offered our temples for the use of mission parishes for Melkites, Romanians, and various EO and OO churches. I don’t know if that cooperation has been reciprocated, and I don’t especially care - apart from forging a reality-based understanding of the notion of not playing well with others. Our seminary is and has been utilized in the formation of Romanian, Melkite, Slovak (Canada and Slovakia), and Ukrainian priests; we have a Melkite and several Orthodox priests on the faculty. Our bishops have been elected as leaders of the Conference of Eastern Catholic Bishops.

Is there room for furthering these relationships. Of course. Primarily I would love to see more cooperation - much more cooperation - in the establishing of missions. There have been situations even of late that are very messy; such messes should be avoided, scrupulously.

One thing that will help in furthering these relationships - arguably a sine qua non of furthering them - is mutual respect.