Will There Ever Be Reunion With The Orthodox ?

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And what if someone were to say “It will involve the full submission of the Papists to all Orthodox doctrine and repudiation of novelties since the West fell away from Orthodox unity”? Wouldn’t you find that insulting and degrading?
No! I’d find it honest, and dialogue has to be founded on honesty. If an Orthodox believer said otherwise, it would mean they don’t really believe in Orthodoxy.

What I find insulting is to be told: “Don’t worry, you already agree with me. You just don’t know it!”
 
What do Traditional Catholics think, or anyone for that matter ? And what would it require ?
I really doubt it. Various people will give various reasons, but paramount, from reading what EO priests have to say, is the denial of papal infallibility, it seems. That’s a matter of faith/grace.🤷
 
No! I’d find it honest, and dialogue has to be founded on honesty. If an Orthodox believer said otherwise, it would mean they don’t really believe in Orthodoxy.

What I find insulting is to be told: “Don’t worry, you already agree with me. You just don’t know it!”
👍
 
What I find insulting is to be told: “Don’t worry, you already agree with me. You just don’t know it!”
I’ve spent lots of time looking through the declarations concerning contentious issues by both Eastern and Western authorities. I couldn’t find a real difference that couldn’t be explained by cultural misunderstandings. I even started a number of posts here asking anyone to prove me wrong in that conclusions, and i don’t feel anyone did. I’m not a theologian, but i am pretty smart and i feel like a have a good understanding of the issues.

So i stand by what i said; the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (and the Oriental Orthodox, as well) Churches have identical theology in all areas essential to reunion.

I also stand by what I said: most members of both bodies just don’t know that. They’ve been taught “we’re right, they’re wrong” without learning too much about what “they” were wrong about. Thats how I was, and when I started to wonder why and started reading, I didn’t find any differences after all.

What we need is the “perfect storm” of leaders: the right patriarchs at the right time, and we could make some real progress.

John Paul II, whatever one thinks about his policies, helped the cause for reunion a great deal. By being slavic, by celebrating Byzantine Divine Liturgies, by returning relics, and by fighting communism, he did a great deal to bring East and West closer.

Benedict XVI has helped greatly by rededicating the West to the traditional understanding of our faith, which we share a great deal of with the East, and also by his support for the East, symbolized by his visit to Constantinople and his support for Christian minorities under Muslim rule, symbolized by the elevation of Patriarch Emmanuel III Delly to the College of Cardinals.

Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople has helped greatly in his willingness to work with the Popes in Rome. The amount of time spent together by Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew is probably more than any Pope and Patriarch have spent in all the time from the Schism until now added together.

Patriarch Alexei of Moscow was the major “road block” in dialogue between East and West, but in a way he helped, too, because he made sure than any conversations which did take place were truly based on tradition and not wishy-washy ecumenical nonsense, which he rightly realized was a waste of time.

So we have a new Patrirach of Moscow being elected and enthroned in the coming weeks. I think the prospects for reunion in the next 100 years truly rests largely on him.

Benedict and Bartholomew have worked well together. If we receive a Patriarch of Moscow who can work well with these two, we could get some amazing dialogue and progress.
 
What do Traditional Catholics think, or anyone for that matter ? And what would it require ?
It’s in God’s hands.

They, not the RCC are in Schism. It is therefore they who have to accept our doctrine and dogma’s, especially on the Primacy of Peter.

I have yet to hear a credible explaination on why they “can’t” accept Mt.16:18-20.

I pray that it will happen and will happen soon. I’d love to see their
influence on piety and holiness, return the NO to God Centered Latria Worship:yup: :love: :extrahappy:
 
I’ve spent lots of time looking through the declarations concerning contentious issues by both Eastern and Western authorities. I couldn’t find a real difference that couldn’t be explained by cultural misunderstandings. I even started a number of posts here asking anyone to prove me wrong in that conclusions, and i don’t feel anyone did. I’m not a theologian, but i am pretty smart and i feel like a have a good understanding of the issues.

So i stand by what i said; the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (and the Oriental Orthodox, as well) Churches have identical theology in all areas essential to reunion.
I’ve had this debate before on the Eastern Catholicism forum and I never get anywhere with it. It seems that reason is something entirely foreign to modern ecumenism.

If the Eastern Orthodox accept Papal Infallibility (which is exactly what you’re claiming - it is an immutable dogma of the Catholic faith and is essential for reunion), then why don’t they just come out and say it?

If you’re saying that belief in Papal Infallibility is optional, then you’re just plain wrong. It has been solemnly defined by an Ecumenical Council. It is an irreformable doctrine.

If you’re saying that the Ecumenical Councils since the Great Schism aren’t genuine and don’t demand the submission of all the faithful, then you’re denying the Catholicity of the Church and removing yourself from communion with her.

In your response to this, I want you to choose one of these two options. If you refuse to do this, then our discussion is over (I’m not saying this to be rude, but because I’ve never been able to get a straight answer from anyone I’ve argued this with):
  1. The Eastern Orthodox accept Papal Infallibility
  2. Papal Infallibility is not a dogma of the faith
Which is it? Your next post should begin with “1)” or “2)”.
 
Dear Dauphin,
I’ve had this debate before on the Eastern Catholicism forum and I never get anywhere with it. It seems that reason is something entirely foreign to modern ecumenism.

If the Eastern Orthodox accept Papal Infallibility (which is exactly what you’re claiming - it is an immutable dogma of the Catholic faith and is essential for reunion), then why don’t they just come out and say it?

If you’re saying that belief in Papal Infallibility is optional, then you’re just plain wrong. It has been solemnly defined by an Ecumenical Council. It is an irreformable doctrine.

If you’re saying that the Ecumenical Councils since the Great Schism aren’t genuine and don’t demand the submission of all the faithful, then you’re denying the Catholicity of the Church and removing yourself from communion with her.

In your response to this, I want you to choose one of these two options. If you refuse to do this, then our discussion is over (I’m not saying this to be rude, but because I’ve never been able to get a straight answer from anyone I’ve argued this with):
  1. The Eastern Orthodox accept Papal Infallibility
  2. Papal Infallibility is not a dogma of the faith
Which is it? Your next post should begin with “1)” or “2)”.
There are LOT of Catholic doctrines/dogmas that are rejected by Orthodox based on their misunderstanding of it.

Papal infallibility is probably the only issue to which they would have SOME legitimate objection, but I do believe MOST of their objections to the dogma are nevertheless based on misconceptions.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear Dauphin,

There are LOT of Catholic doctrines/dogmas that are rejected by Orthodox based on their misunderstanding of it.

Papal infallibility is probably the only issue to which they would have SOME legitimate objection, but I do believe MOST of their objections to the dogma are nevertheless based on misconceptions.

Blessings,
Marduk
Exactly. They reject Papal Infallibility.

The only way someone could say that there are no doctrinal differences between the Churches which serve as an impediment to reunion is if they were to contend that Papal Infallibility is not a dogma of the faith - that the Orthodox do not have to believe it. This is of course what we term heresy. No Catholic can hold such a position.
 
Exactly. They reject Papal Infallibility.

The only way someone could say that there are no doctrinal differences between the Churches which serve as an impediment to reunion is if they were to contend that Papal Infallibility is not a dogma of the faith - that the Orthodox do not have to believe it. This is of course what we term heresy. No Catholic can hold such a position.
I don’t believe anyone has stated “you don’t HAVE to believe it.” That is different from saying, “you are rejecting papal infallibility based on some false misconceptions.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Exactly. They reject Papal Infallibility.

The only way someone could say that there are no doctrinal differences between the Churches which serve as an impediment to reuinion is if they were to contend that Papal Infallibility is not a dogma of the faith - that the Orthodox do not have to believe it. This is of course what we term heresy. No Catholic can hold such a position.
Not for anything, but it’s quite clear that the Church has never considered the Eastern Orthodox to be heretics, the pronouncement of Vatican I in question notwithstanding. And further, any suspicion of heresy among the Oriental Orthodox (and the ACoE) has been resolved. So we are left with the fact of simple schism, which can (and hopefully will) be resolved.
 
Exactly. They reject Papal Infallibility.

The only way someone could say that there are no doctrinal differences between the Churches which serve as an impediment to reunion is if they were to contend that Papal Infallibility is not a dogma of the faith - that the Orthodox do not have to believe it. This is of course what we term heresy. No Catholic can hold such a position.
Dear Dauphin,

There are LOT of Catholic doctrines/dogmas that are rejected by Orthodox based on their misunderstanding of it.

Papal infallibility is probably the only issue to which they would have SOME legitimate objection, but I do believe MOST of their objections to the dogma are nevertheless based on misconceptions.

Blessings,
Marduk
I don’t believe anyone has stated “you don’t HAVE to believe it.” That is different from saying, “you are rejecting papal infallibility based on some false misconceptions.”

Blessings,
Marduk
Dauphin, this a great example of why debating you gets pretty useless at times: you interpret everything the way you want to hear it. Marduk said nothing about not having to accept Papal Infallibility, but you read that into his post anyway because you wanted it to be there.

I agree with Marduk; the Easterns do not properly understand Papal Infallibility. If they did, they would come to see that it is completely compatible with their beliefs.

And yes, they DO accept the Primacy of Peter. But because Papal Infallibility has been, in general, poorly explained (even in the west!), most Orthodox faithful reject what they THINK is the Catholic idea of Papal Infallibility but which isn’t at all.

This same sort of process, going in both directions, surrounds issues like original sin, purgation after death, and the dormition/assumption.
 
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
As long as Orthodox keep spouting off and believing in their MISconceptions and caricatures about the Catholic Church and her teachings, there will be no reunion.
Let’s not forget, there are misconceptions about Orthodoxy on the other side of the Tiber as well.
I’ll second that.
Blessings,
Marduk

My dear fellow Catholics,

To everyone who reads these post and follows the CAF… we, you and me, we represent the RCC.

I admit this is a difficult and obviously Divisive topic, but we are all brothers and sisters, are we not?

Please, please, everything in charity:love: :extrahappy:
 
Sadly, the reverse is happening, many Eastern Catholics–including whole parishes–are tending to re-unite with their Orthodox bretheren.
Not entirely true. Many Orthodox parishes are re-uniting with Rome. This has been going on for centuries after the Schism. Look at the Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes for example. Sadly, they have always been the targets of the ROC. I have always questioned the ROC’s claim of the CC’s alleged proselytization efforts of the Orthodox - since the reverse is true most of the time.
 
I don’t know but there are real differences, not just misunderstandings, that need solved. It will take a long time. These include papal infallibility, universal jurisdiction, the filioque, the immaculate conception, original sin, indulgences, purgatory and etc. The Orthodox are not simply misunderstanding papal infallibility, they actually reject the whole idea of an infallible bishop. Some people on this thread are ignoring the real differences between the EO and Rome.
 
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