Will this atheist go to hell?

[Polaris]

Maybe I missed the thread that mentioned this, but what about Grace? If God did not give her the Grace to be Catholic, christian or even Hindu, but she honestly searched and looked for truth according to the amount of Grace she was given and came to atheism. God could most certianly accept her because He gave her a talon and she did her best with it.

Now the one that is given the Grace of a Catholic and enough talons to buy the world, I fear for more because his standards are going to be infinitly higher.

 

[Mirdath]

Because of that kind of Infinite Love again, I believe our Lord gives each individual soul the final chance to either accept Him or deny Him right before they die. In fact, I encourage you to read the Diary of St. Faustina who our Lord came to and told that He does in fact give each soul such an opportunity for repentence before they finally decide and choose to go to Hell.

This is something I had not heard of before. Would you mind telling me where exactly in the diaries it is, please? I’d be very interested in reading it, and unfortunately don’t have a lot of time to scan through reams of text.

I do not find the idea of an omnibenevolent God to make much sense, as Epicurus noted in his early formulation of the problem of evil. But if, after death, the soul stands before God and is asked ‘will you love me who loves you, or do you wish to have nothing to do with me?’ that would honestly go a very long way toward reconciling God’s benevolence with his omnipotence. I don’t think it’d answer it completely, but it’s a start.

 

[Kevin42]

I think this is the part of the diary they were talking about:

Jesus to the Soul of the Recently Deceased: “O soul steeped in darkness, do not despair. All is not yet lost. Come and confide in your God who is love and mercy.”

In the soul arises this reply: " ‘For me there is no mercy,’ and it falls into greater darkness, a despair which is a foretaste of hell and makes it unable to draw near to God. Jesus calls to the soul a third time, but the soul remains deaf and blind, hardened and despairing. Then the mercy of God begins to exert itself, and without any cooperation from the soul, God grants it final grace. If this too is spurned, God will leave the soul in this self-chosen disposition for eternity. The grace emerges from the merciful Heart of Jesus and gives the soul a special light by means of which the soul begins to understand God’s effort, but conversion depends on its own will. The soul knows that this, for her, is final grace and, should it show even a flicker of good will, the mercy of God will accomplish the rest"

(Diary, 1486).

I can’t find the link I used to find this, but I have had it saved on my computer for a while, so I am fairly certain it is accurate.

 

[CapaxDei]

I don’t believe in hell. (Edit: And if I did, I don’t think I could bring myself to believe that good people, including good Catholics, are going to hell. I’d take some pretty convincing evidence to convince me otherwise.)

You need to let go of the idea of “good people going to hell.” The whole question of whether “[otherwise] good people go to hell” is a monumental red herring. Your eternal destiny depends entirely on whether divine charity exists in the soul at the moment of death, or not.

What is apparent from theology and the writings of the saints is that souls that enter hell are not somehow neglected ones, who fall into mortal sin through human weakness, and become helpless and unable to turn back to God. They are not unfortunate ones who, through tragic circumstances, find themselves in serious sin, and enter hell by default rather than by actively rejecting God. Rather the faith is clear: people enter hell because they choose it. When given the option of submitting to God and His commandments, or living separately from Him so as escape any submission to His holy will, they actively and insistently choose separation.

But in saying this, we should not be mislead. A person who conducts his life in a careless and sinful way may not think he is making an “active and insistent” choice for separation from God. Then God will come to him at the moment of death and he may be surprised to find how hardened his will has become to Him. Neglectfully sinful lives here in this world lead to hardened and cold responses to the Divine Will as death approaches. In such a life there can well be a blindness to the need of repentance, and very possibly the rejection of final grace - the last resort for the wayward soul.

source

In your hypothetical example, I would be inclined to suspect that Jane hadn’t really searched with her whole heart. I believe that if she had truly sought the truth with an open and generous heart, she would have heard the Trinitarian God speaking to her.

 

[Genesis315]

Great Post Capax!

 

[Polaris]

You need to let go of the idea of “good people going to hell.” The whole question of whether “[otherwise] good people go to hell” is a monumental red herring. Your eternal destiny depends entirely on whether divine charity exists in the soul at the moment of death, or not.

In your hypothetical example, I would be inclined to suspect that Jane hadn’t really searched with her whole heart. I believe that if she had truly sought the truth with an open and generous heart, she would have heard the Trinitarian God speaking to her.

I would never presume that. Think of a field of flowers are they all exactly the same? No. The flowers are not equally gifted but together they compose the most beautiful of scenes, even more beautiful than a field of the most glorius of lilies. (Not my idea borrowed and adapted a little, from the Little Flower…I think )

Humans are also not equal in there gifts. God does not give everyone the same amount of Grace. He denies some even the amount of Grace to believe in a trinitarian God, which really takes a lot of Grace to believe in actually.

 

[BlaineTog]

I think I would disagree. If you want a more precise answer than it would be: “There really isn’t much hope he’ll go to Heaven”

Not true at all. The answer is “I really don’t know.” I mean, leaving aside that atheism isn’t in itself necessarily a mortal sin, we don’t have enough information about the woman as a whole, nor do we know enough about her as she was in her final moments, nor do we know whether you’re given a last chance right before death in some sort of extratemporal time, nor do we even have any idea how high or how low the bar is for getting into heaven.

So, we just don’t know.

Saying that we don’t know is true, because we actually don’t know. But we know that outside of the Church there is not salvation and we know that he was a Catholic and he rejected the Church.

And yet, you don’t have to be Catholic to be saved. If you were Catholic and became not Catholic, it could be for any of a number of reasons. Perhaps Catholicism was presented to her in such a way that it appeared false, in which case she would have been hypocritical to have not left. We don’t know.

 

[blessed_wife]

I think this is the part of the diary they were talking about:

(Diary, 1486).

I can’t find the link I used to find this, but I have had it saved on my computer for a while, so I am fairly certain it is accurate.

That is the part in her diary that I was referring to. Thank you for getting it so quickly!

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Not true at all. The answer is “I really don’t know.” I mean, leaving aside that atheism isn’t in itself necessarily a mortal sin, we don’t have enough information about the woman as a whole, nor do we know enough about her as she was in her final moments, nor do we know whether you’re given a last chance right before death in some sort of extratemporal time, nor do we even have any idea how high or how low the bar is for getting into heaven.

So, we just don’t know.

Pope Pius IX The Syllabus of Errors, attached to Encyclical Quanta Cura, 1864: [The following are prescribed errors:] "16. Men can, in the cult of any religion, find the way of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation. - Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846.
“17. One ought to at least have good hope for the eternal salvation of all those who in no way dwell in the true Church of Christ. - Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863, etc.”

Does this, especially point 16, contradict with what you just said?

And yet, you don’t have to be Catholic to be saved. If you were Catholic and became not Catholic, it could be for any of a number of reasons. Perhaps Catholicism was presented to her in such a way that it appeared false, in which case she would have been hypocritical to have not left. We don’t know.

You see, I don’t agree with you while strictly speaking I must agree. I don’t like the language you use because it’s full of meaning. True, we don’t know. But while we don’t know we shouldn’t have much hopes that she is saved, especially since we know that she never repented. Read again what Pope Pius IX said on this topic.

It’s like with those people who say that priests turn their back on people when speaking of the Ad Orientem orientation. This is strictly speaking true, but theologically it’s not because there is an emphasis on something that isn’t essential and something that is important is left out.

We are speaking of someone who has left the Church. Leaving the Church is much worse than never actually joining it. Has she done it because of invincible ignorance? I think that might be possible but extremely unlikely because she should have looked into it. If she had misconceptions about the Church it’s mostly quite easy to learn the truth. The ignorance must not be caused by her own fault, which is what the Church teaches. If she indeed just left without checking it out then it’s her own fault.

In the end I don’t believe that an atheist can achieve heaven for two simple reasons. I think every person gets a chance to accept God and atheism is a sign of rejection. Second of all they are not able to make an act of perfect contrition.

Every person has the chance of the last minute conversion but the OP says that it never happened.

 

[CapaxDei]

I would never presume that. Think of a field of flowers are they all exactly the same? No. The flowers are not equally gifted but together they compose the most beautiful of scenes, even more beautiful than a field of the most glorius of lilies. (Not my idea borrowed and adapted a little, from the Little Flower…I think )

Humans are also not equal in there gifts. God does not give everyone the same amount of Grace. He denies some even the amount of Grace to believe in a trinitarian God, which really takes a lot of Grace to believe in actually.

I didn’t say that I presumed. I said that I “suspected.”

To say that God would choose not give some people the grace sufficient for belief seems to imply that He would not give everyone grace sufficient for salvation, which seems tantamount to saying that some people are just made to be lost.

 

[Polaris]

I didn’t say that I presumed. I said that I “suspected.”

To say that God would choose not give some people the grace sufficient for belief seems to imply that He would not give everyone grace sufficient for salvation, which seems tantamount to saying that some people are just made to be lost.

No it would not imply that to me. God gives you a certian amount of grace in your life time. He will only hold you accountable for what he gave you. If he denies you the grace of belief, he will not dam you for this as long as you live up to that to the fullest.

(Also this reminds me of another error I have seen on this thread, that we cant argue about. The Catholic church does actually believe in, and teach Predetermination, HOWEVER its only in the positive sense as in heaven, no one is predetermined for hell.

 

[BlaineTog]

Pope Pius IX The Syllabus of Errors, attached to Encyclical Quanta Cura, 1864: [The following are prescribed errors:] "16. Men can, in the cult of any religion, find the way of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation. - Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846.
“17. One ought to at least have good hope for the eternal salvation of all those who in no way dwell in the true Church of Christ. - Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863, etc.”

Does this, especially point 16, contradict with what you just said?

Nope. Not all religions are created equal, and certainly there are religions that are pretty much bad. As for point 17, “in no way” to me means we’re given a large swath of leeway in how we interpret “dwell” and “good hope” is different than “no hope,” and worlds away from “Yeah, probably going to the firey place.”

But while we don’t know we shouldn’t have much hopes that she is saved, especially since we know that she never repented.

Not “shouldn’t have much hope,” not “be pretty sure of her destination,” but instead “shouldn’t have good hope,” as in “high hopes.”

We are speaking of someone who has left the Church. Leaving the Church is much worse than never actually joining it. Has she done it because of invincible ignorance? I think that might be possible but extremely unlikely because she should have looked into it. If she had misconceptions about the Church it’s mostly quite easy to learn the truth. The ignorance must not be caused by her own fault, which is what the Church teaches. If she indeed just left without checking it out then it’s her own fault.

It’s entirely possible that she checked, saw something that rung false and then turned away. A good example might be the “unforgivable sin.” I know it made me confused when I first heard of it, and it wasn’t until much later that it made sense.

All I’m saying is, charity.

 

[Mirdath]

That is the part in her diary that I was referring to. Thank you for getting it so quickly!

Thank you both

Is this doctrine in any way, or only the opinion (however inspired) of a saint?

 

[Polaris]

Thank you both

Is this doctrine in any way, or only the opinion (however inspired) of a saint?

It is private revelation which means that in no way shape or form is it a doctrine. We can either believe or not believe in it.

I personally believe in it though. It seems to be the way I think God would act, but many people do not think of a loving God they way I do. So so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[DustinsDad]

Here is a scenario for you, about a fictional character named Jane. According to Catholic theology, will this person go to hell? Why or why not?

Jane, born into a Catholic family, has explored religion thoroughly. She has taken the notions of God and Church very seriously, and has had a long and arduous intellectual/spiritual journey. After exploring Mormanism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and, of course, her own Catholic Church, she has decided to stop believing in a divine being of any kind. You could say she is an atheist; she does not have a god-belief, though she would not say she can disprove the existence of God.

Her non-belief in God is mostly on account of intellectual questioning - and not getting sufficient answers. Otherwise, she is a decent human being. She is no Mother Teresa, but she is generally kind and curteous, and guilty of no great crime. She has a young daughter, whom she loves dearly and takes good care of. She is unmarried. One day, she is killed in a car accident, and through the powers of the omniscient narrator (me), we know she persisted in her non-belief in a diety to her death. (In other words, there was no last-second repentance.)

According to current Catholic theology, where would she end up? If there is not enough information to say, what more information is needed? Please cite sources when constructing your response.

Hell.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.
Too easy.

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

I have a couple follow up questions, if you’re willing:

#1: Considering the vast number of educated people who aren’t Catholic or convert away from Catholicism or are atheists like Jane - why isn’t the Church encouraging massive evangelization campaigns? I mean, it would be like seeing someone in a burning building and not sending in the fire fighters to rescue him/her. In other words, I see a bit of a disconnect there - the Church’s, as well as induvidual Catholics, don’t really seem all that concerned about the potential billions who are a few decades away from eternal suffering.

No argument there. Religious indifferentism is afflicting the Church in the present day. We’ll have to answer for it.

#2: I’m confused about how we could reconcile a good God with sending Jane to hell. She’s clearly a nice person, who has done no great crime. She’s taken Church/God very seriously, which is much more than we can say for many of the lazy religious people out there who don’t give the faith they were born into much thought. I mean, it just doesn’t seem right to throw someone into a firey dungeon for the rest of eternity when they’ve lived a kind and honest life like Jane has.

“Being nice” and doing “no great crime” ain’t enough. The cross of Christ is the only thing that saves us - By God’s grace accepting it, By God’s grace believing it, and by God’s grace living itto the best of our ability…having His Divine life within us is the only thing that saves us.

God has given us everything we need to have eternal life with Him - He’s given us His only Son on the cross, He’s given us the One True Church, He’s given us the Sacraments, He’s given us His own mother.

We choose.

It’s Him or it’s Satan.
It’s Light or it’s Darkness.
It’s Heaven or it’s Hell.
It’s the Kingdom of God or it’s the Kingdom of Satan.

And if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

There is no middle ground.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Exalt]

No argument there. Religious indifferentism is afflicting the Church in the present day. We’ll have to answer for it.

My contention is that the lax conversion efforts of most Catholics is due to most Catholics not really believing that people like Jane will go to hell. If they did, they’d be knocking on doors, putting up billboards, making TV commercials - anything and everything to get people to believe.

Where am I wrong?

“Being nice” and doing “no great crime” ain’t enough. The cross of Christ is the only thing that saves us - By God’s grace accepting it, By God’s grace believing it, and by God’s grace living itto the best of our ability…having His Divine life within us is the only thing that saves us.

God has given us everything we need to have eternal life with Him - He’s given us His only Son on the cross, He’s given us the One True Church, He’s given us the Sacraments, He’s given us His own mother.

We choose.

It’s Him or it’s Satan.
It’s Light or it’s Darkness.
It’s Heaven or it’s Hell.
It’s the Kingdom of God or it’s the Kingdom of Satan.

And if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

There is no middle ground.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I’m confused on what exactly we need to be saved *from. *What sends us to hell in the first place? It’s almost like you’re taking an Augustinian stance here - we’re all on a big boat headed for hell and Jesus is the only thing that can save us. I thought the Church moved away from that stance.

 

[DustinsDad]

My contention is that the lax conversion efforts of most Catholics is due to most Catholics not really believing that people like Jane will go to hell. If they did, they’d be knocking on doors, putting up billboards, making TV commercials - anything and everything to get people to believe.

Where am I wrong?

There’s that that you mentioned firs - the religious indiffereintism of our society and culture even within the Church itself - layfolk and clergy alike are not immune from this heresy.

And there’s also another principal that afflicts those who are not of the “everyone ‘nice’ goes to heaven” camp. That is the principal that you might hear in a business management cource: “motivation is directly connected with anticipation of success.”. That is, if we don’t anticipate or expect success in our efforts, we aren’t real motivated to go out and shout it from the rooftops so to speak.

This is related to the first prinicipal, because even the “fired up” live in the such an enormousely religiously indifferent society and culture, eventually it wears on ya and you feel like all your efforts are nothing more than casting pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6). At this point, it’s important for the faithful to have a strong prayer life, not give up hope, and continue to preach the gospel by the example of their lives - and also with words when the opportunity arrises. At least that’s where I’m at right now.

I’m confused on what exactly we need to be saved from.

Eternal separation from God.

What sends us to hell in the first place?

The depravation of His Divine Life in our souls, which was lost by our first parents. We are all born into this state of being, this seperation from God, since the Fall of man.

God Himself became one of us and gave us the one and only way back to Him - and that way is Jesus Christ. He Himself* undid* what our first parents did and offers to us this redeption - the way to Him which is He Himself.

So what sends us to hell is the rejection of this way to Heaven.

It’s almost like you’re taking an Augustinian stance here - we’re all on a big boat headed for hell and Jesus is the only thing that can save us.

That’s exactly what I’m saying.

I thought the Church moved away from that stance.

Nope. I personaly think it was more clearly articulated in the past - but it’s still there of course. Truth doesn’t change. Read the current Catechism’s section of the Fall of Man and Origiinal Sin. Plus, here’s a little more from the current catechism on salvation and judgement :
(CCC 1021) Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith…

(CCC 1022) Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

(CCC 1026) By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.
Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[mschrank]

Jane is a loving and kind person. Her position is that Heaven doesn’t exist, not that she wouldn’t like it if she turned out she was wrong - or that she wouldn’t like to go there.

First of all, pleasantness and niceness means nothing. Really. I don’t know where this idea that nice = good ever came into being in Christianity or in the public perception of it. You’re educated, you know how Plato describes something as “good” (i.e., a good knife is one that is sharp, not one that looks pretty- that’s a bad knife).

Secondly, if this person loves the idea of Christ, there’s enough “pro” evidence to stake your claim. Really, there is. The way I see it, is there’s equal purely objective evidence and philosophical coherence for not all, but many religions (including atheism). It’s all about where your heart is pointed.

You’re on a bus. You have to sit next to some person. That person has no sense of personal space and keeps putting their feet on your footrest. If you don’t know this person, you’re going to be annoyed. However, if this person is your wife, you’re going to be overjoyed. That’s what I gather, from reading, what many holy people compare heaven to. It’s that seat on the bus. The thing is, once you get on, you can’t get off or get another seat.

 

[elwoodpd]

Here is a scenario for you, about a fictional character named Jane. According to Catholic theology, will this person go to hell? Why or why not?

… … … etc.

According to current Catholic theology, where would she end up? If there is not enough information to say, what more information is needed? Please cite sources when constructing your response.

1. No offense, but if you want a definitive answer to your question, why aren’t you consulting a more authoritative resource than a forum of Catholic (and non-Catholic) laypeople?
2. You have received quite a number of answers to your posted question, stating a number of different conclusions, and some of them contradicting each other.
   (I think this fact proves that you are rather unlikely to get a definitive, certain, true statement here of the Church’s teachings.)
   But you have not yet stated which answer you perceive to be the right answer, which answer you believe represents the true representation of the teaching of the Church, or which specific answer you are addressing with your follow-up discussion.

I would suggest that the most productive thing is to find out for certain exactly what the Church teaches on this subject, then discuss it or refute it if you wish.

One last thing. The answer posted by Stylteralmaldo, which had a number of Catholic catechism references in it, is probably the most reliable answer yet posted to your question. It’s conclusion is not that Jane will go to hell. Yet you have not (apparently) addressed this post. It would seem that you are assuming that the general answer is that Jane will go to hell.