Will you be in heaven?

[LutheranStudent]

Will you be in heaven?
In Lutheran circles, it is safe to say, we are taught to know with confidence that we will be in heaven when we die. Keeping our own sinfulness in mind and not out of sinful pride we confess it because to say we “might” be in heaven would be akin to saying that Jesus “might have” paid for all our sins completely. How would you answer this question?

A) Yes, because Christ Jesus has assured us that whoever lives and believes in him shall never die.
B) Maybe. Nobody can tell for sure that God will send them to heaven because in the end it’s God’s judgement call.
C) No. I don’t believe that I am good enough to get to heaven or that God’s promise includes also me.

 

[Toni]

I would answer it with what Christ said ‘Recieve the Holy Spirit whos sins you forgive they are forgiven those you hold bound shall be held bound.’ (When Christ instituted the sacrament of confession)

 

[Lazerlike42]

Hebrews 10:26: “If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement.”
Who is the ‘we’ here? Answer: it is the disciples of Jesus Christ. What is the warning to those who have the knowledge of the truth, but then turn away from it? Are they saved?

Philippians 2:12-13: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
If our salvation is assured, why do we need to ‘work it out’, much less be afraid and tremble? Didn’t Jesus do it all for us? Or are you still required to OBEY Him just like it says in the first part of this passage?

1 Peter 5:8: “Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.”
If our salvation is assured, then the devil cannot touch us. So why must we be “sober and watchful”? Why does St. Peter admonish us to keep awake lest the Devil devour us?

**Luke 12:45-46: “But suppose the servant says to himself, `My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the men servants and maid servants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.” **
Notice the servant is LAZY and is not obeying the Master’s will. The servant is a believer but he does not show his belief by his conduct. So what does the Lord do to him? And WITH WHOM does He place the servant?

Hebrews 4:6: “Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience.”
Why did they fail to enter the kingdom? Because they lacked a “saving fidiciary faith in Jesus”? NO! It was because they disobeyed.

Romans 11:19-22: “You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
Did you catch the $64,000 word in the passage? That’s right! The word is provided which indicates a conditional and provisional clause. That means your salvation is not assured. It is provisional on you “continuing in His kindness” OTHERWISE you too will be CUT OFF.

Hebrews 3:6: “And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope.”
What if we do not hold fast? What then?

1 Thessalonians 1:3: “…remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Thessalonians 5:8: "But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
Since when does “hope” = “assured”? If hope was assured, then it wouldn’t be hope, would it? There is always uncertainty in hope.

1 Peter 1:6-7: “In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
St. Peter says that your faith is perishable so the question is: why do you believe it is imperisable and that your salvation is assured?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27: “…after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”
Disqualified from what? From the eternal crown. Read the whole passage. So if St. Paul can be disqualified, why do you have the presumption to say that you cannot be?

2 Timothy 2:12: “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us.”
Acts 14:22: “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.”
Luke 21:19: "…by your perseverance you will secure your lives”.
What if we do not endure, suffer, or perservere? If we do not endure, we deny, and if we deny, what does St. Paul’s letter to Timothy tell us that God will do to us?

John Pacheco
The Catholic Legate
February 1, 2002
www.catholic-legate.com

 

[LutheranStudent]

John Pacheco - So that’s a maybe?

 

[april_hosen]

A!
I’m positive I’m in with God. Me and Jesus are tight!

 

[MrS]

LutheranStudent:

John Pacheco - So that’s a maybe?

Catholics are taught (don’t always listen) that our confidence is in Christ and His promise… not in ourselves.

The “assuredness” of heaven that some have is the sin of presumption.

Christ did not flat out promise me I would be in heaven… He requires my submission to Him… and I can pray my Faith will not fail, as St Paul asked for prayers that his faith not fail.

 

[LutheranStudent]

MrS:

Catholics are taught (don’t always listen) that our confidence is in Christ and His promise… not in ourselves.

The “assuredness” of heaven that some have is the sin of presumption.

Christ did not flat out promise me I would be in heaven… He requires my submission to Him… and I can pray my Faith will not fail, as St Paul asked for prayers that his faith not fail.

Glad to hear that, MrS.

 

[amgid]

LutheranStudent:

Will you be in heaven?
In Lutheran circles, it is safe to say, we are taught to know with confidence that we will be in heaven when we die. Keeping our own sinfulness in mind and not out of sinful pride we confess it because to say we “might” be in heaven would be akin to saying that Jesus “might have” paid for all our sins completely. How would you answer this question?

A) Yes, because Christ Jesus has assured us that whoever lives and believes in him shall never die.
B) Maybe. Nobody can tell for sure that God will send them to heaven because in the end it’s God’s judgement call.
C) No. I don’t believe that I am good enough to get to heaven or that God’s promise includes also me.

None of the above!

amgid

 

[MrS]

LutheranStudent:

How would you answer this question?

A) Yes, because Christ Jesus has assured us that whoever lives and believes in him shall never die.

Satan believes in Him…so there can’t be that simple an understanding of “believe” It requires obedience, and faith… the toughest acceptance probably being John 6. But since we know God is merciful, and we know the Real Presence of the Eucharist cannot be found without the Ministerial Priesthood of the Catholic Church… A) won’t work

B) Maybe. Nobody can tell for sure that God will send them to heaven because in the end it’s God’s judgement call.
*
God’s judgment call follows His gift of free will to mankind. So in the end, we have condemned ourselves… Jesus will allow that… B) won’t work
*

C) No. I don’t believe that I am good enough to get to heaven or that God’s promise includes also me.

God’s promise is to all of us… but there are requirements. Catholics should believe that God will not give us more than we can bear… and He will make available the necessary graces we will need to see Him for eternity. Thankfully, the source of much of the grace I require is found in the seven Sacraments which Jesus Himself gave to us through His Church… C) won’t work.

If that is all the choices you have… perhaps it is time to come home, at look at what the Church **really **offers to all.

 

[deb1]

LutheranStudent:

Will you be in heaven?
In Lutheran circles, it is safe to say, we are taught to know with confidence that we will be in heaven when we die. Keeping our own sinfulness in mind and not out of sinful pride we confess it because to say we “might” be in heaven would be akin to saying that Jesus “might have” paid for all our sins completely. How would you answer this question?

A) Yes, because Christ Jesus has assured us that whoever lives and believes in him shall never die.
B) Maybe. Nobody can tell for sure that God will send them to heaven because in the end it’s God’s judgement call.
C) No. I don’t believe that I am good enough to get to heaven or that God’s promise includes also me.

None of these answers are ones that I believe in. Free will is a beautiful and frightening gift. We must continue to preserve in our faith but we have the freedom to deny God’s grace.

 

[ChiFaithful]

deb1:

None of these answers are ones that I believe in. Free will is a beautiful and frightening gift. We must continue to preserve in our faith but we have the freedom to deny God’s grace.

I agree. I don’t like my faith in salvation to be pigeon-holed like that; you’ll need some new explanations. How’s this one: I certainly hope that I will be saved through God’s grace and my faith in Him, and I have faith that he will give me the gifts to do just that, so I may live my life by His word.

Run-on sentence, though. Sorry.

 

[MariaG]

Mrs. S already (and others) stated it quite well. For a more lenthy look into the “Catholic answer” and mind set, look here

Assurance of Salvation?

From CA Library,
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

That said, as a former fundamentalist, I know that when I said “I know I am saved” it was not the sin of presumption, it was hopeful confidence that I was feeling when I said it.

As I have grown in my Christian faith, I have come to see how those words, “I know I am saved” can be misconstrued to mean something I do not intend, ie once saved always saved/ or sin of presumption, so I no longer use those words. But my confidence in my salvation, my “knowing” whether or not I am in a state of sin, “knowing” that Christ is my Savior, “knowing” that Christ died for my sins, “knowing” that Christ lives in me and I in Him, is not one bit less than it was before the Holy Spirit led me home to the Catholic Church.

Which is also why, I too, did could not choose one of your answers as they incompletely could express my answer, my beliefs, and my understanding of the confidence of my Salvation.
God Bless,
Maria

 

[Le_Cracquere]

One of the ideas that gave motive force to Luther’s reformation was the concept of God’s utter & complete overlordship of the universe and His creatures (this is often cited as a reason behind the doctrine of predestination). If I were a man of impeccably Protestant temperament (of which Lutheranism claims to be the sine qua non), I’d say that God is Lord over all, and that He has the discretion to do whatever He pleases with me before death and after.

For my part, I don’t like saying that I’m absolutely sure of my afterlife destination–not because I disbelieve in God’s promises, but because it seems presumptious and rude, like taking a contract He signed and waving it under His nose.

 

[LutheranStudent]

For my part, I don’t like saying that I’m absolutely sure of my afterlife destination–not because I disbelieve in God’s promises, but because it seems presumptious and rude, like taking a contract He signed and waving it under His nose.

Maybe this hits on a different perception of salvation between Lutherans and Catholics. Without getting into the whole sola fide argument, Lutherans see heaven as a promise rather than a* contract.*

 

[MariaG]

LutheranStudent:

For my part, I don’t like saying that I’m absolutely sure of my afterlife destination–not because I disbelieve in God’s promises, but because it seems presumptious and rude, like taking a contract He signed and waving it under His nose.

Maybe this hits on a different perception of salvation between Lutherans and Catholics. Without getting into the whole sola fide argument, Lutherans see heaven as a promise rather than a* contract.*

Lutherans and Catholics as a whole, are in more argreement than not when it comes to the promise and hope of heaven.

I would not take the words of one person who uses the word “contract” and make general applications to all Catholics.

MrS summation is, in my opinion, a much better generalization of true Catholic teaching. But as he said, not every Catholic seems to be listening and understanding what Catholics are *supposed *to believe.

Note: I do not believe that Le Cracquere does not know Catholic teaching or is not listening. I am saying that I do not believe the use of the word “contract” is significant to nor reflective of general Catholic thought and teachings.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Lazerlike42]

LutheranStudent:

For my part, I don’t like saying that I’m absolutely sure of my afterlife destination–not because I disbelieve in God’s promises, but because it seems presumptious and rude, like taking a contract He signed and waving it under His nose.

Maybe this hits on a different perception of salvation between Lutherans and Catholics. Without getting into the whole sola fide argument, Lutherans see heaven as a promise rather than a* contract.*

I think that the OSAS attitude is far more of the view of a contract than a of a promise. In OSAS, once you sign that contract (accept Christ), God is bound under contract to bring you to Heaven no matter what you do. Similarly, yo are bound under contract to go to Heaven even if you decided you didn’t want to.

Catholics look on it as a promise: God promises us that He will always be there for us willing to take us in. His promise is a promise because He is God and His will is absolute. We can’t promise that we’ll never go from God’s open arms, because our will is not absolute and we can change our minds.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

LutheranStudent:

Maybe this hits on a different perception of salvation between Lutherans and Catholics. Without getting into the whole sola fide argument, Lutherans see heaven as a promise rather than a* contract.*

I let my simile get away from me. I don’t see salvation as a sort of contract; I just meant to say that asserting one’s place in heaven with utter surety seems a little too close to treating salvation as a contract. There’s a fine line between fully relying on God’s promises and treating salvation in a contractual spirit–I’d say the difference is a sort of metaphysical humility that’s missing from a doubt-free confidence of one’s afterlife destination.

And I don’t want to give the false impression to the other popster that I know or am voicing the orthodox Catholic view here: I’ve been raised an evangelical Protestant, still am technically, and am currently fumbling in a not-very-linear-or-assured way toward the Church. Feel free to take my ideas with as much salt as you please.

 

[MariaG]

Le Cracquere:

I let my simile get away from me. I don’t see salvation as a sort of contract; I just meant to say that asserting one’s place in heaven with utter surety seems a little too close to treating salvation as a contract. There’s a fine line between fully relying on God’s promises and treating salvation in a contractual spirit–I’d say the difference is a sort of metaphysical humility that’s missing from a doubt-free confidence of one’s afterlife destination.

And I don’t want to give the false impression to the other popster that I know or am voicing the orthodox Catholic view here: I’ve been raised an evangelical Protestant, still am technically, and am currently fumbling in a not-very-linear-or-assured way toward the Church. Feel free to take my ideas with as much salt as you please.

And unfortunately, here, every little word gets over analyzed and replayed over and over and over:bigyikes:. I wish they had a foot in mouth icon since I seem to frequently suffer from that problem.

God Bless you and keep you safe,

Maria

 

[MrS]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_4_119.gifwill this do ???

 

[MariaG]

MrS:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_4_119.gifwill this do ???

That will work! Especially from you. I seem to frequently post/read your name as Mrs S instead of MrS. And I only notice it too late to edit the problem. We both have been around long enough that you think I would have stopped being a bone head about your name by now!

God Bless,
Maria