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BlackKnight
Guest
Why don’t you just enlighten us?
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PaulDupre
Guest
Really? I’ve looked and looked, but I can’t fnd the phrase “Roman Catholic” in the bible. Perhaps you could enlighten us?
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PaulDupre
Guest
That’s 3, energizer bunny! You’re on the hook now.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
No Catholic ever claimed that the Pope was God.
No Catholic ever claims that the Pope is impeccable.
All Catholics understand that the charism of infallibility is vested in the Pope speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals (there have been TWO instances of this) AND in the ordinary magesterium of the Church–the same Church which brought you your Bible (even if you took out some books) through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You yourself believe, do you not, in the INERRANCY of SCRIPTURE? Well, that INERRANT SCRIPTURE (we believe that as well) was determined through the grace of the Spirit through–wait for it–CATHOLICS. Not Protestants like Lutherans, Episcopalians, or Baptists–these people, who arose many hundreds of years later, are called Protestant because they PROTESTED the Catholic faith, wanting to cherry pick what their leaders, or their “consciences”, or their “individual interpretation” judged was “true”. It was CATHOLIC men who were led by the Spirit to sift through the Jewish books referenced by our Lord, through the synoptic gospels and John, through epistles and–what is THIS? Oh my gracious. What of all the hundreds of documents like the Gospel of Thomas, and the Protoevangelium of James, and a host of others? Strangely enough, these works were NOT JUDGED to be Scripture. Who did the judging? CATHOLICS, through the Spirit. And that judgment–the scriptural canon–was held throughout CHRISTENDOM for over 1000 years. . .until Martin Luther got upset not over anything the Church TAUGHT–at first–but over some wrong actions and some misinterpretations of his OWN. THEN, of course, in order to justify himself, he started looking for ways to twist scripture or “pick out” parts (or ADD words like “alone” to “saved by faith”, or leave out “straw” gospels which contradicted him). . .and then other people started getting anticlerical (Calvinists) or wanted a different wife so made themselves heads of their own church (Henry VIII). . .and so on. Certainly there was much more to the protestant revolution than this, but equally certainly all the above were PART of the revolution.
Of course, centuries on, Protestants today certainly did NOT “cherry pick” or “protest” as their forebears did. They truly and sincerely believe their doctrines and traditions. As Christians, they are our brothers and sisters and while we might disagree on matters, we respect and love them.
You know, there are lots of fine Christian Baptist people who live fine upstanding lives. I might not agree with them on their doctrine and history, but I don’t go around and try to tell THEM what they believe, especially if what I am saying is NOT what they believe.
How about extending the same CHRISTIAN CHARITY, LOVE, and RESPECT to us?
No Catholic ever claims that the Pope is impeccable.
All Catholics understand that the charism of infallibility is vested in the Pope speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals (there have been TWO instances of this) AND in the ordinary magesterium of the Church–the same Church which brought you your Bible (even if you took out some books) through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You yourself believe, do you not, in the INERRANCY of SCRIPTURE? Well, that INERRANT SCRIPTURE (we believe that as well) was determined through the grace of the Spirit through–wait for it–CATHOLICS. Not Protestants like Lutherans, Episcopalians, or Baptists–these people, who arose many hundreds of years later, are called Protestant because they PROTESTED the Catholic faith, wanting to cherry pick what their leaders, or their “consciences”, or their “individual interpretation” judged was “true”. It was CATHOLIC men who were led by the Spirit to sift through the Jewish books referenced by our Lord, through the synoptic gospels and John, through epistles and–what is THIS? Oh my gracious. What of all the hundreds of documents like the Gospel of Thomas, and the Protoevangelium of James, and a host of others? Strangely enough, these works were NOT JUDGED to be Scripture. Who did the judging? CATHOLICS, through the Spirit. And that judgment–the scriptural canon–was held throughout CHRISTENDOM for over 1000 years. . .until Martin Luther got upset not over anything the Church TAUGHT–at first–but over some wrong actions and some misinterpretations of his OWN. THEN, of course, in order to justify himself, he started looking for ways to twist scripture or “pick out” parts (or ADD words like “alone” to “saved by faith”, or leave out “straw” gospels which contradicted him). . .and then other people started getting anticlerical (Calvinists) or wanted a different wife so made themselves heads of their own church (Henry VIII). . .and so on. Certainly there was much more to the protestant revolution than this, but equally certainly all the above were PART of the revolution.
Of course, centuries on, Protestants today certainly did NOT “cherry pick” or “protest” as their forebears did. They truly and sincerely believe their doctrines and traditions. As Christians, they are our brothers and sisters and while we might disagree on matters, we respect and love them.
You know, there are lots of fine Christian Baptist people who live fine upstanding lives. I might not agree with them on their doctrine and history, but I don’t go around and try to tell THEM what they believe, especially if what I am saying is NOT what they believe.
How about extending the same CHRISTIAN CHARITY, LOVE, and RESPECT to us?
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12volt_man
Guest
Tantum ergo:
Actually, Baptists are not Protestants. Baptists have been around since the NT, long before the Reformation.
And, according to you guys, we’re still going to Hell.
Actually, you just did.
Yeah, I’ll try to remember that when you people are telling us that we’re apostate and going to Hell.
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StMarkEofE
Guest
REALLY? That news. Im sure some of my Roman Catholic brothers will have something to say about this Im sure.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I would like to see documentation about Baptists being able to trace their originating to New Testament times. PRIMARY SOURCES, of course. There are plenty of sources about anabaptists and baptists from the time of the Reformation, but I have never seen a reputable primary source from “New Testament” times; unlike primary sources for Catholics which are traced back to Ignatius who studied with the apostle John.
As for the “going to hell” part, I said nothing of the kind. I don’t care to be called a liar and I don’t care for false accusations. One of the rules of this forum calls for respect for forum rules. Please consider re-reading them and abiding by them if you truly wish to maintain a discussion.
As for the “going to hell” part, I said nothing of the kind. I don’t care to be called a liar and I don’t care for false accusations. One of the rules of this forum calls for respect for forum rules. Please consider re-reading them and abiding by them if you truly wish to maintain a discussion.
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12volt_man
Guest
Actually, I have been told by Catholics here, as well as on other forums, and have cited former Roman Catholic popes who have said that those of us who reject Roman Catholic rituals in favor of Christ for our atonement are going to Hell.
And you did make a false claim about Baptists.
And you did make a false claim about Baptists.
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StMarkEofE
Guest
First of all, only God Himself knows where all of us will be going on the last days. And the Roman Catholics and as we the Orthodox ask that anyone who is serious in the Christian faith do a very serious investigation on what constitutes the true faith. The RCC and the OC can trace its beginnings back to the Pentecost. Why because at one time the west and east were in union. The Baptist communinon was an outcropping of the Protestant Reformation and not before. Please present a proof of Baptist beliefs prior to the reformation.
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12volt_man
Guest
And God Himself has given us His word so that we may know that we’re saved.
No. Baptists and Anabaptists existed longbefore the Reformation.
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StMarkEofE
Guest
Can you present evidence of this? Because history itself dosnt support this supposition. Please present the proof.
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jimmy
Guest
I have actually been in a discussion with a baptist about this and he has yet to show any proof. He is supposedly a knowledgable baptist too.
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jimmy
Guest
You were asked to present some proof of their existence, that is not a proof.
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Rachel_Malloy
Guest
I know in heated debates, it is easy to stray off topic… But I must remind you this thread is dealing specifically with salvation, and “will you be in heaven?”
Please continue…
Please continue…
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Yes continue.
I would like the originator of this thread to join back in the discussion.
I would like the originator of this thread to join back in the discussion.
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Rachel_Malloy
Guest
I have posted this on another thread, and felt it was appropriate here as well…
If we elect to censor beliefs because we don’t like them or disagree with them, we cannot claim to be operating a discussion forum that educates Catholics as to the belief systems of others. Instead, we run the risk of creating a very insular, parochial site in which Catholics speak only with Catholics and that, eventually, will be better labeled “Catholics Liking Catholics”, since we will have no answers for anyone.
Attempting to answer others without taking the time and making the effort to know and understand their beliefs produces a dogmatic, pedantic product that, if accepted by the listener, results in a poorly catechized Catholic who doesn’t really understand why he left his origins, only that he did. Most converts forged in that mold eventually move on, generally resentful of what they perceive, rightly, to have been manipulation that afforded them answers, not to their questions, but to the questions that others decided they should have. The kind of dialogue that has transpired is the reason why there is a Non-Catholic Forum.
That said, this discussion walks a very thin line between appropriate intellectual discussion and word brawl. I would encourage ALL who decide to continue with the discussion to keep this in mind. Remember to check your post for tone and content before hitting submit.
May God be with each of us in this discussion-
If we elect to censor beliefs because we don’t like them or disagree with them, we cannot claim to be operating a discussion forum that educates Catholics as to the belief systems of others. Instead, we run the risk of creating a very insular, parochial site in which Catholics speak only with Catholics and that, eventually, will be better labeled “Catholics Liking Catholics”, since we will have no answers for anyone.
Attempting to answer others without taking the time and making the effort to know and understand their beliefs produces a dogmatic, pedantic product that, if accepted by the listener, results in a poorly catechized Catholic who doesn’t really understand why he left his origins, only that he did. Most converts forged in that mold eventually move on, generally resentful of what they perceive, rightly, to have been manipulation that afforded them answers, not to their questions, but to the questions that others decided they should have. The kind of dialogue that has transpired is the reason why there is a Non-Catholic Forum.
That said, this discussion walks a very thin line between appropriate intellectual discussion and word brawl. I would encourage ALL who decide to continue with the discussion to keep this in mind. Remember to check your post for tone and content before hitting submit.
May God be with each of us in this discussion-
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sandusky
Guest
Yes
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marysson
Guest
That’s kinda of strange, considering not even St Paul claimed he knew he was saved for certain. In fact, he said quite to opposite!
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JoeyWarren
Guest
EXACTLY!
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MariaG
Guest
I am sorry to see that you have been suspended. If you are still lurking, I will still answer.
For somebody who says she doesn’t know Latin, that’s pretty good.
I wish I didn’t know my Spanish as well as you don’t know your Latin.
Thanks! I wish I knew both way better than what I can just figure out from the context of situations.
But what about those of us who are relying solely on Christ for salvation and not the rituals, traditions or authority of the pope?
Catholics do not rely on rituals, traditions or the authority of the pope for salvation. We rely on Christ alone. But we believe that Christ has shown us that he wants us to do certain things because of our belief. It is because of our belief in Christ told us to do certain things as recorded in Scripture that we do them to be obedient to Him.
Like I said, I completely reject the teachings and the neccessity of the Roman Catholic church to be saved.
No, you reject what you believe the Catholic Church teaches. You have misunderstood, been poorly taught or both.
I am relying solely on the person, claims, and finished atoning work of Jesus Christ for my salvation.
I am glad you believe in the atoning work of Christ for your salvation. I will pray that for your invincible ignorance for what you rejected even though you do not think you need it.
No baptism. No eucharist. No allegiance to the pope. No last rites. No nothin’.
So you reject the scripture that tells us to go and be baptized?
Just Jesus’ shed blood at Calvary.
I too will stand before God and claim that blood.
My soul is not up for grabs.
I pray not.
If the words of Jesus are to be believed (as I believe that they are), then my soul is as safe and sound as a babe in it’s mama’s arms.
I pray you are right (ie that your soul is safe). But I also believe you have misinterpreted Christ’s words.
Scripture tells us that there will be those who come along and preach a false gospel. Who came along the baptist church/Calvin or the Catholic church? History clearly shows that the only Christian Church around for over 1000 years was the Catholic Church. Who came along teaching false doctrine?
Why? What have they changed?
They haven’t changed, you have misunderstood the teaching of Christ in the Catholic church.
Thank you, Maria, for being the only one here who has been polite to me.
You are welcome. I know you come here because you sincerely believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong. You are incorrect, but I thank you for your concern for the salvation of Catholics. Someday, I pray you will understand that Catholics can be sincerly saved.
God Bless,
Maria
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