Will you forgive me for asking?

[spockrates]

Forgiveness is letting God open the door to the future.

A future consisting of what?

 

[raaucoin]

A future consisting of what?

A future in which anything that has happened to me requiring forgiveness no longer has any power over me. A future filled with true peace. ( And peace is not the absence of turmoil- just an awareness of the presence of God even in the midst of it and knowing all will be well). A future in which I am not hindered in being all that God intends me to be and in having all that He intends me to have.

 

[Carlan]

I hope you don’t mind my asking, Carlan: If I try to never forget the wrong done to me, then how can I keep from holding a grudge? Isn’t holding a grudge the same as not forgiving?

Spockrates, not forgetting is not necessary holding a grudge if you have forgiven the person.
There are some pretty dangerous and damaging behaviors of people which ,seems to me, would be very foolish not to be leary or wary about. Peace, Carlan

 

[meltzerboy]

Forgiveness is a big topic in Judaism. Just as G-d forgives man, man is required to forgive his fellow man in his efforts to emulate G-d as much as possible. But such forgiveness requires one to be sincerely repentant, which at best may be ascertained through deed as well as speech, but cannot always be assured. Nonetheless, the acceptance of a sincerely felt apology is also necessary since this means the individual who apologizes can receive atonement for his hurtful behavior and, at the same time, there is then the means of reparation for the community and, indeed, the world beyond the individual. In other words, forgiveness of a single individual goes beyond that individual’s atonement according to Jewish teaching. It is also thought, in Judaism, that G-d cannot forgive one’s sins against others before one makes an honest attempt to seek forgiveness directly from those whom one has wronged. That is, repentance enables G-d to forgive those sins committed directly against Him, but not those sins committed against one’s fellow man. However, it is not always possible to ask forgiveness from others for various reasons, even though the intention may be present. Another issue involves accepting forgiveness on the part of others. This is particularly striking for Jews who have accepted an official statement of apology from Germany on the part of those millions of Jews who were killed in the Holocaust. The question arises whether one has the right to accept such an apology on the part of those murdered. One is, however, commanded to do so.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, that’s helpful, Steve!


Now all we have to do is determine what action constitutes Mercy and what action constitutes Forgiveness, and we are on our way to knowing how to forgive! Please tell me, what do I DO to show mercy? What do I DO to forgive?

A daughter of one of my employees stole $650.00 from my office a few weeks ago. Her mother found it, or what was left of it, in her room. She came to me and admitted that she had taken it. I could have called the police. I didn’t. I thanked her for coming to me and admitting her offense. I also gave her a temporary job with which she could earn the money to pay me back for the portion she spent. That is mercy.

I also made the decision to forgive her and told her so. I don’t hold it over her head when I see her. I treat her with respect and give her a smile and encouragement. This doesn’t mean that I have forgotten what she did, nor do I have to forget in order to forgive. Unless we have a very poor memory, none of us ever “forgets”, but we can still forgive, go on with our lives, and allow the one we have forgiven to go on with theirs.

Hopefully, when someone committs an offense against her in the future whe will remember that she was once forgiven and will do the same.

 

[spockrates]

A future in which anything that has happened to me requiring forgiveness no longer has any power over me. A future filled with true peace. ( And peace is not the absence of turmoil- just an awareness of the presence of God even in the midst of it and knowing all will be well). A future in which I am not hindered in being all that God intends me to be and in having all that He intends me to have.

So forgiveness is what you do for you, but not what you do for another?

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates, not forgetting is not necessary holding a grudge if you have forgiven the person.
There are some pretty dangerous and damaging behaviors of people which ,seems to me, would be very foolish not to be leary or wary about. Peace, Carlan

I see, but I still wonder: If forgiveness is not forgetting, but continuing to hold a person liable for her sin, then forgiveness is not pardoning a person for her sin. True?

 

[Carlan]

I see, but I still wonder: If forgiveness is not forgetting, but continuing to hold a person liable for her sin, then forgiveness is not pardoning a person for her sin. True?

Spock, take another look at post#45.
A person lies about you and damages your character or steals your property,and
your mercy forgives them, however that does not mean you do not have to expect them to make reparation for the damaged caused, or pay back what was stolen.
Just as God forgives the repentant murderer,there is still the matter of temporal punishment.Right?

 

[Thomas31]

I would say, take a good look at what Christ did on the cross… picture his suffering, his body beaten and wipped over and over again… his body so badly beaten that when it was finished it didnt even look like a human was hanging on that cross… And he did that to Forgive us! thats Love. thats forgivness.

Or look at the woman who was caught in adultery… she was supposed to be stoned to death back in that day… But Jesus loved her so much that he said, He is is without sin, throw the first stone. And when he looked up, all those who wanted to stone this woman were gone. Jesus said, Where are they? And went on to say to this woman, I forgive you… Forgivness is Love.

 

[spockrates]

Spock, take another look at post#45.
A person lies about you and damages your character or steals your property,and
your mercy forgives them, however that does not mean you do not have to expect them to make reparation for the damaged caused, or pay back what was stolen.
Just as God forgives the repentant murderer,there is still the matter of temporal punishment.Right?

Sorry, I had not read Steve’s post (#45) yet.

Yes, I’d expect them to pay such a debt owed to me. Are you saying, then that forgiveness is to not hold a grudge, but that forgiveness is also not forgiving a debt? In other words, does God want us to forgive in some ways, but not in others?

 

[spockrates]

I would say, take a good look at what Christ did on the cross… picture his suffering, his body beaten and wipped over and over again… his body so badly beaten that when it was finished it didnt even look like a human was hanging on that cross… And he did that to Forgive us! thats Love. thats forgivness.

Or look at the woman who was caught in adultery… she was supposed to be stoned to death back in that day… But Jesus loved her so much that he said, He is is without sin, throw the first stone. And when he looked up, all those who wanted to stone this woman were gone. Jesus said, Where are they? And went on to say to this woman, I forgive you… Forgivness is Love.

Hi, Thomas. Thanks for joining the dialog. So are you thinking that forgiveness is NOT holding a person accountable or liable for her sin?

 

[spockrates]

Forgiveness is a big topic in Judaism.

Welcome, Meltzer. I’m glad and grateful to have a Jewish perspective.

Just as G-d forgives man, man is required to forgive his fellow man in his efforts to emulate G-d as much as possible.

I think that’s a goal with which every Catholic should agree. After all, our own Apostle Paul wrote this:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love…

(Ephesians 2:1-2)

But such forgiveness requires one to be sincerely repentant, which at best may be ascertained through deed as well as speech, but cannot always be assured.

Yes, and it seems Jesus agrees with this Jewish perspective:

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

Nonetheless, the acceptance of a sincerely felt apology is also necessary since this means the individual who apologizes can receive atonement for his hurtful behavior and, at the same time, there is then the means of reparation for the community and, indeed, the world beyond the individual. In other words, forgiveness of a single individual goes beyond that individual’s atonement according to Jewish teaching. It is also thought, in Judaism, that G-d cannot forgive one’s sins against others before one makes an honest attempt to seek forgiveness directly from those whom one has wronged. That is, repentance enables G-d to forgive those sins committed directly against Him, but not those sins committed against one’s fellow man. However, it is not always possible to ask forgiveness from others for various reasons, even though the intention may be present. Another issue involves accepting forgiveness on the part of others. This is particularly striking for Jews who have accepted an official statement of apology from Germany on the part of those millions of Jews who were killed in the Holocaust. The question arises whether one has the right to accept such an apology on the part of those murdered. One is, however, commanded to do so.

Yes, and the need for repentance and forgiveness still dogs the Jewish people today in Israel, I suppose. In the 1980s when I traveled through Israel with friends, I noticed a group of young people eating ice cream while one of them held an automatic rifle. The threat of violence seemed a daily reality to them at the time.

But putting the topic of one nation receiving forgiveness of another aside, I’m wondering about one person receiving forgiveness from another. Would you say, then that I should only forgive those who are truly repentant? or are there times when forgiveness can (and perhaps even should) be unconditional?

 

[spockrates]

A daughter of one of my employees stole $650.00 from my office a few weeks ago. Her mother found it, or what was left of it, in her room. She came to me and admitted that she had taken it. I could have called the police. I didn’t. I thanked her for coming to me and admitting her offense. I also gave her a temporary job with which she could earn the money to pay me back for the portion she spent. That is mercy.

Extremely merciful indeed!

I also made the decision to forgive her and told her so. I don’t hold it over her head when I see her. I treat her with respect and give her a smile and encouragement. This doesn’t mean that I have forgotten what she did, nor do I have to forget in order to forgive. Unless we have a very poor memory, none of us ever “forgets”, but we can still forgive, go on with our lives, and allow the one we have forgiven to go on with theirs.

Hopefully, when someone committs an offense against her in the future whe will remember that she was once forgiven and will do the same.

Yes. So then it seems that

Mercy = being lenient (or not treating a person as harshly as she deserves)

and

Forgiveness = (1) not holding a grudge and (2) not holding a person fully liable for her sins

The reason I think (2) is this: A criminal is liable to face the penalty the law (and courts) give her for the crimes she committed. Although you required her to pay back the money she stole, you did not have her arrested and charged for the crime, so you did not hold her fully liable for the crimes she committed.

But I wonder, then whether your act of mercy was not (at the same time) also an act of forgiveness. For you were both lenient and partially pardoning her for her crimes with the same act.

 

[Carlan]

Spock, perhaps you should take an other look at what the Church teaches about forgiveness, temporal punishment and Purgatory( the purification process)
Really I don’t think it is such a confusing doctrine. Peace, Carlan

 

[guanophore]

I see, but I still wonder: If forgiveness is not forgetting, but continuing to hold a person liable for her sin, then forgiveness is not pardoning a person for her sin. True?

We do not have the authority before God to remit or hold one liable for one’s sin. We can forgive the wrongs they have done against us, but this does not discharge us from exercising prudence. It would not be charitable to encourage or permit a person to commit the same sin against us. For example, if a person batters his spouse, his spouse may forgive his wrong, but to put herself in a position where he may batter her again only contrbutes to his sin, which is a sin in itself!

The victim can pray for him, and forgive him.

“Forgetting” makes no sense, psychologically speaking. We are the product of our expereinces. It is not a matter of “forgetting” the wrong that was done, but of being healef of it. When we are healed psychologically and spiritually, the wound no longer causes pain to us. But we are still marked by the event, much as we have scars on our skin. When they are healed, they are no longer painful to us, and we can function with them present. But when we look at them, we are mindful of how they came to be there.

 

[guanophore]

…And he did that to Forgive us! thats Love. thats forgivness.

… I forgive you… Forgivness is Love.

1 Peter 4:8
8 Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.

Love can veil or cover the sins. God will need to remit them, but we no longer need to have them influence our relationships with one another. We hold not the sins against one another, and God, in HIs mercy, washes us from them.

 

[spockrates]

Spock, perhaps you should take an other look at what the Church teaches about forgiveness, temporal punishment and Purgatory( the purification process)
Really I don’t think it is such a confusing doctrine. Peace, Carlan

Carlan:

What does the Church teach about forgiveness? Tell me so that I might understand as completely and perfectly as you do.

 

[guanophore]

Carlan:

What does the Church teach about forgiveness? Tell me so that I might understand as completely and perfectly as you do.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s2a3.htm#2843

2842 This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus. Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.

As has been noted, one can best understand the depth and perfection of forgiveness through the experiences of God in Christ forgiving oneself.

 

[Zooey]

Forgiveness is not holding a grudge against another, after you feel they have done you emotional or physical harm. It’s letting go of anything inside you that seeks vengence or retribution for the action you perceive is against you.

However people are not God, they can’t forgive the sins of another person.

I guess its more of a sense of letting go any anger and pain you are holding in your heart against another person, and moving on with things.

I once read a book in which the author said that forgiveness is what we give in return for whatever evil is done to us.
(I know that this lady was making a play on words, but it struck me as a very good poiint).

 

[spockrates]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s2a3.htm#2843

2842 This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus. Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.

As has been noted, one can best understand the depth and perfection of forgiveness through the experiences of God in Christ forgiving oneself.

Yes, that is helpful! It is what an uneducated, Catechism-illiterate, truth seeker like myself needs. Thank you Guano.



You and I can understand how to forgive by understanding how God forgives us; we should forgive in the perfect way that God the Father forgives us. That is just the context that I need to comprehend what has so long eluded me.



Now that the answer is in sight, I hope you will stay awhile to help me see it through. For it is still not fully clear, but somewhat of a blur, as if seen from a great distance. A few more answered questions will bring it closer into view. One question: How does God forgive? Or more specifically, what (if anything) do I have to do before God will forgive me? Please tell me that I might more clearly bring the truth in focus.