Will you forgive me for asking?

[sinscriven]

To me forgiveness is an act that is done for the self, and not for the person who has done wrong. To forgive is to remove the burden of feeling anger, pain, betrayal, and vengeance that one might have which will only cause suffering for the self.

I believe that forgiveness is tied to Equanimity, one of the four immesurables (virtues). One must learn to accept that all things, positive or negative with a level of detachment so that one can keep centered and open; As allowing yourself to be grounded to negative emotion would cloud the tranquil state. That and it takes much more energy to be hostile than it is to just love.

 

[spockrates]

To me forgiveness is an act that is done for the self, and not for the person who has done wrong. To forgive is to remove the burden of feeling anger, pain, betrayal, and vengeance that one might have which will only cause suffering for the self.

I believe that forgiveness is tied to Equanimity, one of the four immesurables (virtues). One must learn to accept that all things, positive or negative with a level of detachment so that one can keep centered and open; As allowing yourself to be grounded to negative emotion would cloud the tranquil state. That and it takes much more energy to be hostile than it is to just love.

Hi, Sin. Yes, I think that is part of what Forgiveness is, but is that all it can possibly be? When you ask God to forgive you, is that all you are asking Him to do for you? or are you not asking Him to do anything for you at all?

 

[spockrates]

When you pray, “Forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me,” what (if anything) are you asking God to *do *for you?

 

[spockrates]

Sin:

I apologize! I did not notice you were a Buddhist! Please tell me, how does forgiveness work in Buddhist theology? Is there a kind of forgiving that is received by a being divine? or is there some kind of supernatural law of metaphysical cause and effect that is nothing like personal forgiveness?

 

[Carlan]

spockrates God is not other people. I don’t always need other People. I NEED GOD.

Are you ready yet to get off the merry-go-round . I got so dizzy he had to get me off, I was spoiling his fun, God bless you for your patience friend. Peace, Carlan

 

[rinnie]

Com’on Rinnie–you have the answer. Just say it! What is it that you want God to give you when He completely and forever forgives you?

My sin, any sin that I have. But what does that have to do with us to have to separate ourself from different People from time to time because we just cannot get along with them the way we should.

And where do we NEED anyone in this world besides God.

The Priest told me it is better to forgive and pray for People who you cannot get along with. But it is never good to fight. Sometimes you just have to keep a distance, But continue to help them when you can. But you do not have to be great friends and associate with them.

Now your turn show me where it says we have to NEED certain people?

 

[rinnie]

Are you ready yet to get off the merry-go-round . I got so dizzy he had to get me off, I was spoiling his fun, God bless you for your patience friend. Peace, Carlan

Na I am still ready for the spin!

 

[SteveVH]

When you pray, “Forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me,” what (if anything) are you asking God to *do *for you?

We are asking for salvation, ultimately. Why don’t you answer the question yourself and then maybe we can have a discussion rather than a guessing game in which we get our shot at arriving at an answer you deem appropriate.

 

[Vico]

Asking what forgiveness is, that is? You see, I’m not sure, and I’m thinking that since I don’t really know what forgiveness is, then I cannot really know how to forgive!

I think it’s a good topic to discuss with non-Catholics, as people of all religions advocate forgiving, I think. It might be fun, and enlightening, to have a good dialog about something we might all be able to agree upon.

But I don’t think the answer is as easy as it might seem. I mean, I’ve asked the same question at the Philosophy forum, and the Catholic Living forum, and the Sacred Scripture forum, and there was not any consensus, and more questions than answers. My hope is that we might have better results here in a non-Catholic forum–which will be surprising given the bias some Catholics have that non-Catholics cannot agree on anything!



So tell me, please. What is forgiveness?

Forgiveness is the act of forgiving. (Merriam-Webster)

forgive (tr. verb)
1a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult>
b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2**:** to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one’s enemies>

 

[RebeccaJ]

Spockrates, good to see you around…forgiveness is an act of charity. Charity, is rooted in love for another, and the seeking of good for the other because of genuine love.

This is from the Encyclical Caritas in Veritate:

“First of all, justice. Ubi societas, ibi ius: every society draws up its own system of justice.* Charity goes beyond justice*, because to love is to give, to offer what is “mine” to the other; but it never lacks justice, which prompts us to give the other what is “his”, what is due to him by reason of his being or his acting. I cannot “give” what is mine to the other, without first giving him what pertains to him in justice. If we love others with charity, then first of all we are just towards them. Not only is justice not extraneous to charity, not only is it not an alternative or parallel path to charity: justice is inseparable from charity, and intrinsic to it. Justice is the primary way of charity or, in Paul VI’s words, “the minimum measure” of it, an integral part of the love “in deed and in truth” (1 Jn 3:18), to which Saint John exhorts us. On the one hand, charity demands justice: recognition and respect for the legitimate rights of individuals and peoples. It strives to build the* earthly city according to law and justice. On the other hand, charity transcends justice and completes it in the logic of giving and forgiving. The earthly city* is promoted not merely by relationships of rights and duties, but to an even greater and more fundamental extent by relationships of gratuitousness, mercy and communion. Charity always manifests God’s love in human relationships as well, it gives theological and salvific value to all commitment for justice in the world.”

What are we asking for when we ask God to forgive us? We are asking God to reconcile us to Him, but also to the Church, as we are in communion with each other, through Jesus Christ, Who is the Person we encounter God’s Charity through. It is Christ Who justifies us.

Or as SteveVH said, ultimately, we’re asking for Salvation. For ourselves and our neighbors.

Why should we forgive, because we seek to follow Jesus Christ, who taught us love thy neighbor as thyself, is the greatest commandment. In this, is the implication that love seeks what is good for the other person. Imperfect and flawed as we are, we aren’t always so great at it. God is always there, to pick us up, and give us the grace we need to forgive ourselves, and others.

What forgiveness is not, is pretending that one is not hurt, angry or disillusioned. A person can be all these things, and still seek the good of the person who has offended.

BTW: there is nothing to forgive in the asking.

 

[spockrates]

Are you ready yet to get off the merry-go-round . I got so dizzy he had to get me off, I was spoiling his fun, God bless you for your patience friend. Peace, Carlan

Carlan:

If you are using a merry-go-round as an analogy for an enjoyable time, then I quite agree that the process of seeking the truth through dialog is much fun. If you are using the analogy to say that the discussion has no goal and no purpose, then you misunderstand my motive.

The last question I asked you was this:

Carlan:

What does the Church teach about forgiveness?

Are you saying you would enjoy considering the answer to that question? If so, why get off the discussion-go-round? Are you thinking it would be pointless to answer the question? If so, please explain why.

 

[spockrates]

My sin, any sin that I have.

You have not answered the question, Rinnie. Have you? I asked you: “What do you want God to DO when He forgives you?” That is, how do you want Him to show you that you are forgiven? Your answer: “My sin, any sin that I have.”

But I did not ask you what you want God to FORGIVE, I asked you what do you want God to DO when He forgives.

But what does that have to do with us to have to separate ourself from different People from time to time because we just cannot get along with them the way we should.

And where do we NEED anyone in this world besides God.

The Priest told me it is better to forgive and pray for People who you cannot get along with. But it is never good to fight. Sometimes you just have to keep a distance, But continue to help them when you can. But you do not have to be great friends and associate with them.

Now your turn show me where it says we have to NEED certain people?

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

(John 13:34-35)

Isn’t Jesus telling us that we need to love one another, rather than separate ourselves from one another?

 

[spockrates]

Na I am still ready for the spin!

I hope you stay awhile. My ride is a pink elephant! What’s yours?

 

[spockrates]

Forgiveness is the act of forgiving. (Merriam-Webster)

forgive (tr. verb)
1a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult>
b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2**:** to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one’s enemies>

Yes, good idea, Vico!



Let’s start with the common dictionary definitions. But may I suggest we use a more complete list?

for·give
 
 /fərˈgɪv/ verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.
–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

–verb (used without object)
6. to pardon an offense or an offender.

Now Vico, please tell me. In which of these six ways do you want God to forgive you?

 

[rinnie]

You have not answered the question, Rinnie. Have you? I asked you: “What do you want God to DO when He forgives you?” That is, how do you want Him to show you that you are forgiven? Your answer: “My sin, any sin that I have.”

But I did not ask you what you want God to FORGIVE, I asked you what do you want God to DO when He forgives.

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

(John 13:34-35)

Isn’t Jesus telling us that we need to love one another, rather than separate ourselves from one another?

I agree he is saying to love one another but I missed where he said we cannot separate ourselves from one another.

But I thought we were taught to walk away turn the other cheek when one hurts us and forgive but where does it say to continue to be abused etc? I missed that one.

I always read if someone refuses to hear or believe the word (which when a person continues to hurt another person) to shake the dust off of the ole shoes and walk away. Its really the same thing.

But I was always taught to pray for them, continue to love then, but I never read you had to continue to hang out with them and take the abuse. Where does walking away mean you quit loving them or praying for them.

Are you saying God wants us to continue to take verbal abuse. Because sometimes people refuse to change. Again show me were God says we have to stick around and continue to be hurt and keep forgiving.

GOd gave us common sense to walk away.

 

[rinnie]

I hope you stay awhile. My ride is a pink elephant! What’s yours?

The enterprise!!

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates, good to see you around…

Rebecca:

It’s so wonderful to see you again! How are you?

forgiveness is an act of charity. Charity, is rooted in love for another, and the seeking of good for the other because of genuine love.

This is from the Encyclical Caritas in Veritate:

“First of all, justice. Ubi societas, ibi ius: every society draws up its own system of justice.* Charity goes beyond justice*, because to love is to give, to offer what is “mine” to the other; but it never lacks justice, which prompts us to give the other what is “his”, what is due to him by reason of his being or his acting. I cannot “give” what is mine to the other, without first giving him what pertains to him in justice. If we love others with charity, then first of all we are just towards them. Not only is justice not extraneous to charity, not only is it not an alternative or parallel path to charity: justice is inseparable from charity, and intrinsic to it. Justice is the primary way of charity or, in Paul VI’s words, “the minimum measure” of it, an integral part of the love “in deed and in truth” (1 Jn 3:18), to which Saint John exhorts us. On the one hand, charity demands justice: recognition and respect for the legitimate rights of individuals and peoples. It strives to build the* earthly city according to law and justice. On the other hand, charity transcends justice and completes it in the logic of giving and forgiving. The earthly city* is promoted not merely by relationships of rights and duties, but to an even greater and more fundamental extent by relationships of gratuitousness, mercy and communion. Charity always manifests God’s love in human relationships as well, it gives theological and salvific value to all commitment for justice in the world.”

Yes, I appreciate those wise words.



I especially like the cited counsel of Apostle John:

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

Would you agree, then that people who say forgiveness is what you do for you, but not what you do for others are sincere, yet sincerely wrong? I’m thinking that yes indeed, not holding a grudge is good for me, and necessary to forgive, but the goal of forgiveness should be expressing love toward the forgiven, rather than feeling warm fuzzies yourself.

What are we asking for when we ask God to forgive us? We are asking God to reconcile us to Him, but also to the Church, as we are in communion with each other, through Jesus Christ, Who is the Person we encounter God’s Charity through. It is Christ Who justifies us.

Yes, YES! That’s what I was thinking, too! But I didn’t want to come out and say it. I wanted to see if someone, anyone had the same idea as me. It’s good to have that confirmation, especially from an old friend!

Or as SteveVH said, ultimately, we’re asking for Salvation. For ourselves and our neighbors.

Yes, and I was going to ask Steve what salvation is. Reconciliation, or adoption, or being welcomed with open arms and a warm embrace. THAT’S how I want God to forgive me. Shouldn’t that be how we seek to forgive one another?

Why should we forgive, because we seek to follow Jesus Christ, who taught us love thy neighbor as thyself, is the greatest commandment. In this, is the implication that love seeks what is good for the other person. Imperfect and flawed as we are, we aren’t always so great at it. God is always there, to pick us up, and give us the grace we need to forgive ourselves, and others.

What forgiveness is not, is pretending that one is not hurt, angry or disillusioned. A person can be all these things, and still seek the good of the person who has offended.

BTW: there is nothing to forgive in the asking.

Glad you think so. However, as Socrates said, “I have, I fear a tedious way of asking a simple question!” I thought it best to beg forgiveness at the outset, as I knew my Socratic Method has the effect of trying the patients of many who don’t understand the motive to my madness. As Socrates said: “The world in general has not figured me out, but only says of me that I drive men to their wit’s end!”

 

[spockrates]

We are asking for salvation, ultimately. Why don’t you answer the question yourself and then maybe we can have a discussion rather than a guessing game in which we get our shot at arriving at an answer you deem appropriate.

No need. Rebecca took the words right outta my mouth!



What I want from God is what the Prodigal Son received–acceptance, pardon and a warm embrace. What I want is to look Him in the eye and feel no shame, and shed tears of joy.

My heart says of you, “Seek his face!” Your face, LORD, I will seek.

(Psalm 27:8)

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

(Revelation 21:4)

18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

(Luke 15)

That’s how I want God to forgive me, Steve. Isn’t that how you want Him to forgive you, too? That’s how He wants us to forgive others, if only they will allow us. Don’t you agree? Now the deeper, but more practical question: What does a person have to DO (if anything) before I or you forgive her so completely and so permanently? What does a person have to do before I or you must try to forgive her as perfectly as God forgives her?

 

[spockrates]

What does a person have to DO (if anything) for us to try to forgive him
in the same perfect way that God forgives us?

 

[Carlan]

Carlan:

If you are using a merry-go-round as an analogy for an enjoyable time, then I quite agree that the process of seeking the truth through dialog is much fun. If you are using the analogy to say that the discussion has no goal and no purpose, then you misunderstand my motive.

The last question I asked you was this:

What does the Church about forgiveness?

Are you saying you would enjoy considering the answer to that question? If so, why get off the discussion-go-round? Are you thinking it would be pointless to answer the question? If so, please explain why.

Spock,
I will simply say what we pray every day in the Prayer our Lord gave us.
“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

When we ask this, we are reminding ourselves of what of what we must ask
And what we must do in order to be worthy in turn to receive.

What do I receive from God for forgiving my brother and for asking for and receiving forgiveness for myself?
I rec’ back from Him the gift of renewed relationship with Him.
Peace, brother, Carlan