Will you forgive me for asking?

[spockrates]

I think that if you work on your forgiveness with the other person, they can get unstuck, too. Because many times, I think, both people (the hurt one and the one who did the hurting) are stuck in that moment. Sometimes it is possible for two people (or a group of people) to work on their forgiveness together. Sometimes it is not possible.

I think that many of the “hurt people” are wanting to work on the forgiveness with the other person. They think that the other person needs to do something for the forgiveness to happen. For example, “if so-and-so would just appoligize.” “if so-and-so would just admit they were wrong.” etc. Trust me. That makes no difference.

Like I wrote earlier. Forgiveness is easy to define. Easy to talk about. Easy to tell somebody that they need to do it. But HARD to do. Very very very very very hard.

Yes, I think that it is possible, and even profitable, to forgive those who don’t think they need forgiving. For example, while suffering the crucifixion, Jesus prayed for those who brought about His suffering:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

The Roman guards who disrespectfully mocked Him, and cruelly beat Him, and mercilessly whipped Him, and savagely nailed Him to a cross seemed to have no guilt for, and no knowledge of, the gravity of their sin. So I suppose that when one is stuck in such a state of ignorance, we should pray that the Father forgive them for their ignorance, even though they don’t apologize, or repent. Don’t you?

 

[spockrates]

Show contrition; true sorrow for what they have done; and, they must ask.

Yes, that seems to be the logical conclusion to draw when we accept the premise that we must forgive others the perfect way the Father forgives us. Isn’t it?

My priest said in his message this morning that we should be careful to consider the context of what Jesus says before we come to a conclusion about what He really meant to convey. Considering this context,

"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

I’d say that, at least sometimes, forgiveness is conditional. Wouldn’t you? I mean, it seems to me that Jesus is saying we should be quick to forgive IF the forgiven one first repents. That is, IF the forgiven one shows contrition and sincere sorrow and confesses her sin to you or me. In other words, forgiveness is a kind of conditional (rather than unconditional) love. For the one forgiven must meet the conditions in order to be forgiven. Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

Is Forgiveness a form of conditional (rather than unconditional) Love?

 

[OscarsMama]

So I suppose that when one is stuck in such a state of ignorance, we should pray that the Father forgive them for their ignorance, even though they don’t apologize, or repent. Don’t you?

Yes, I think that Jesus is our model for forgiveness. I think that we should always pray to God to forgive those that hurt us and who “know not what they do.”

But… very easy said. Very hard to do.

And I think that people feel like they need an appology from the other person prior to forgiveness. But that is not the case. And many times the apology will feel “less than” needed anyway.

Forgiveness is a decision between you and God.

 

[Carlan]

Pray that the priest won’t have a heart attack when I go to confession for the first time in years and say, “Bless me father, for I have sinned. It has been __ years since my last confession.”

Don’t worry about the priest , anyway he’s not the one really sitting in there. Just get heading in that direction, like yesterday! Come Holy Spirit Come!

You are about to discover what peace is all about! Forgiveness!!!

Peace, Carlan

 

[spockrates]

Yes, I think that Jesus is our model for forgiveness. I think that we should always pray to God to forgive those that hurt us and who “know not what they do.”

But… very easy said. Very hard to do.

And I think that people feel like they need an appology from the other person prior to forgiveness. But that is not the case. And many times the apology will feel “less than” needed anyway.

Forgiveness is a decision between you and God.

Well, I suppose it’s a decision between the three of us–me, God and the one I forgive. As Jesus said:

For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

(Matthew 18:20)

I mean, don’t you think the one to forgive has something to say about whether or not you forgive her? or do you think forgiveness is always an arbitrary decision you make unilaterally and without consulting the one you forgive?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Yes, Love does what is best for another, but what if what is best for one is what is worse for another? Does Love make a choice and sacrifice one to benefit the other?

… dear spock ,

… as i see it love does disadvantage some in a fallen world , but this is not the fault of love , for in a perfect world making any sacrifice is bliss to one , so love always wins and so does all , in a perfect world all are winners no matter what , it is only the lack or absence of love that leads to the lack or absence of love in ours and alls experience , the fullness of love leads to the fullness of love for us and all , it’s quite simple really if you think about it , we’ll get our perfect world of love back eventually i’m sure ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[rinnie]

Yes, quite a riddle, Rinnie!



I mean, I think the modern proverb, “Nobody’s perfect” is true, don’t you? Then again, perhaps we are wrong and the disciples of Saint Thomas Aquinas, who are called Catholic Thomists and who believe sinless perfection is possible this side of eternity, are correct? Socrates said:

A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him.

(Theaetetus, 152)

And it seems to me we ought to try to understand Thomas Aquinas, and our Redeemer Jesus Christ, who Himself commands us to:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 5:48)

One thing comes to my mind: Christ would not command us to do something that is impossible for us to do, and He said that:

"…with God all things are possible.”

(Matthew 19:26)

So do you think that, with God’s help, we really can do the impossible? Do you think that God can actually give us the desire, and wisdom, and ability to forgive as perfectly as He Himself forgives?

Oh I guess yes its possible. Because we are all called to be perfected in Christ. We are all called to be perfect as Christ is perfect.

But it takes so much ridding one of oneself. SO let me re-phrase what I said. It is possible but very few can do it.

I believe from the People I know of from my life time are 2. My Dad and Pope John Paul II.

I truly believe that JPII did become a Saint on earth.

Now my Dad did not become a Saint on earth. BUT he perfected the forgiveness thing. He was given that Grace from God as long as I knew him. He NEVER held a grudge. Me and My Mom well we made up for it:blush:

But he was the ONLY person I knew that as soon as someone hurt him or screwed him over he forgave them even before or if they ever asked for it. He would yell or be angry for about a minute and then say Oh well, its over GOD BLESS THEM, I forgive then and then go about his day and never talk about it again!

I could NEVER understand that until I got older. He SAID and ALWAYS said if you DON’t Forgive God will not forgive you. He LIVED by that. He realy did,

 

[rinnie]

http://www.wpclipart.com/signs_symbol/icons_oversized/question_mark_purple.png

Is Forgiveness a form of conditional (rather than unconditional) Love?

Forgiveness is conditional because there are always conditions on it. Like if we are to be forgiven from God we have a condition and that is to repent and quit the sin.

But the Love of God is always unconditional. That is asking 2 very different questions.

Just because God loves us not matter what does not mean we do not have conditions on forgiveness.

 

[spockrates]

… dear spock ,

… as i see it love does disadvantage some in a fallen world , but this is not the fault of love , for in a perfect world making any sacrifice is bliss to one , so love always wins and so does all , in a perfect world all are winners no matter what , it is only the lack or absence of love that leads to the lack or absence of love in ours and alls experience , the fullness of love leads to the fullness of love for us and all , it’s quite simple really if you think about it , we’ll get our perfect world of love back eventually i’m sure ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, JR.

Rather than say

…it is only the lack or absence of love that leads to the lack or absence of love…

I’d suggest saying this

…it is only the [diminished presence] or absence of [one’s] love that leads to n the [diminished presence (but never absence) of God’s] Love.

For doesn’t John, the disciple whom Jesus loved say that God is Love? Whatever that means, it must at least mean that nothing that God does lacks love–though our own actions might lessen or limit the extent to which He can express His love to us.

I mean, consider Hell. Critics of Catholicism will tell us that a God who loves would never subject anyone to the suffering of eternal torment. It seems to me that the answer to such criticism is Divine Mercy.

“Yes,” your or I might answer, “there is suffering in Hell–whether mental or physical or both, we probably cannot know. But what we also don’t know is whether the ones suffering in Hell are suffering as much as they deserve, or much less than they deserve. If they are suffering less than they deserve, then God is being merciful to them, and then even the damned experience the merciful love of God.”

So I suggest that God is always Love, and even those rotting in Hell experience this love, but only in a limited sense, for their decisions and actions resulted in their receiving much less of the Love of God than He wanted to give them.

The next question, I suppose is this: Is Mercy a kind of Forgiveness? and if it is, then are not even the damned (to a diminished degree) forgiven?

 

[spockrates]

Forgiveness is conditional because there are always conditions on it. Like if we are to be forgiven from God we have a condition and that is to repent and quit the sin.

But the Love of God is always unconditional. That is asking 2 very different questions.

Just because God loves us not matter what does not mean we do not have conditions on forgiveness.

Let’s test the spirit of what you say to see whether it is true: If God’s love is always unconditional, and God’s forgiveness is always conditional, then forgiveness cannot possibly be an act of love. The logical form of the argument:

L = U
F = C
U is not = C
therefore,
F is not = L

where
L is Love
F is Forgiveness
C is conditional
and
U is unconditional

We would then have to conclude that either:

1. 
   *]We cannot love someone by forgiving them, for Forgiveness cannot be an act of Love.
   
   or
   
   *]We are incorrect in thinking that loving is always unconditional, for sometimes (as in the case of Forgiveness) Love requires conditions be met before she acts.
   
   I’m thinking the correct inference must be (2), how about you?
   
   

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, JR.

Rather than say
…it is only the lack or absence of love that leads to the lack or absence of love…
I’d suggest saying this
…it is only the [diminished presence] or absence of [one’s] love that leads to n the [diminished presence (but never absence) of God’s] Love.
For doesn’t John, the disciple whom Jesus loved say that God is Love? Whatever that means, it must at least mean that nothing that God does lacks love–though our own actions might lessen or limit the extent to which He can express His love to us.

I mean, consider Hell. Critics of Catholicism will tell us that a God who loves would never subject anyone to the suffering of eternal torment. It seems to me that the answer to such criticism is Divine Mercy.

“Yes,” your or I might answer, “there is suffering in Hell–whether mental or physical or both, we probably cannot know. But what we also don’t know is whether the ones suffering in Hell are suffering as much as they deserve, or much less than they deserve. If they are suffering less than they deserve, then God is being merciful to them, and then even the damned experience the merciful love of God.”

So I suggest that God is always Love, and even those rotting in Hell experience this love, but only in a limited sense, for their decisions and actions resulted in their receiving much less of the Love of God than He wanted to give them.

The next question, I suppose is this: Is Mercy a kind of Forgiveness? and if it is, then are not even the damned (to a diminished degree) forgiven?

… dear spock ,

… good points these , have you thought about how god did hell for everyone and not just those that go to heaven ??? , his sacrifice was infinite in value and was for all men , not only does god forgive out of mercy but he does everyones hell for them , and forgiveness is a fruit of mercy , divine justice demands justice of all and god must be just and sinners must pay the price for their sins , but god in his mercy has taken forgiveness to the extreme and paid the price for all sinners , and god is love – your right of course , all is love that is good , the devil is trying to turn all into evil , perefct love does not just forgive and forget or be merciful , it even does your hell for you , hope all is well with you there dear mr spock , live long and prosper !!! ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[spockrates]

Or perhaps there is a third possibility:

1. Loving in thought should always be unconditional, but loving in deed is sometimes conditional, so we should forgive a person unconditionally in thought, but forgive the same person conditionally in action.

For example, we might forgive a person in thought by unconditionally not holding a grudge, but we also forgive the same person in deed by conditionally pardoning him (or not holding him liable) for his sins against us any longer.

How does this sound to you?

 

[OscarsMama]

I mean, don’t you think the one to forgive has something to say about whether or not you forgive her? or do you think forgiveness is always an arbitrary decision you make unilaterally and without consulting the one you forgive?

I think so sometimes. But take the example of forgiving somebody who murdered a loved one. That person would be in prison. You may never speak to or see that person again. But it is possible to forgive them. They may never know it. And, I think, if they are a true psychopath, they wouldn’t have the ability to CARE whether or not they were forgiven. I think that sometimes the murderer WANTS forgiveness (as we hear them say in court). Regardless of whether or not they CARE or WANT it, the victim’s family can choose to forgive them. And that forgiveness would be between the family member and God.

 

[Vico]

Let’s test the spirit of what you say to see whether it is true: If God’s love is always unconditional, and God’s forgiveness is always conditional, then forgiveness cannot possibly be an act of love. The logical form of the argument:
L = U
F = C
U is not = C
therefore,
F is not = L

where
L is Love
F is Forgiveness
C is conditional
and
U is unconditional

We would then have to conclude that either:

1. 
   *]We cannot love someone by forgiving them, for Forgiveness cannot be an act of Love.
   
   or
   
   *]We are incorrect in thinking that loving is always unconditional, for sometimes (as in the case of Forgiveness) Love requires conditions be met before she acts.
   
   I’m thinking the correct inference must be (2), how about you?
   
   

1. 
   Assuming that there is only one expression of love and one expression of forgivness and not different forms of each. There could be UL and CL, UF and CF.

 

[sinscriven]

Sin:

I apologize! I did not notice you were a Buddhist! Please tell me, how does forgiveness work in Buddhist theology? Is there a kind of forgiving that is received by a being divine? or is there some kind of supernatural law of metaphysical cause and effect that is nothing like personal forgiveness?

Forgive me for taking so long to respond!

And no worries, that question is actually more relevant than you think. I can’t speak for all schools, but in my understanding there is no divine being to give forgiveness as God would. To exercise forgiveness is a way of releasing ourselves from our own suffering from our attachment to our negative emotions, as these negative emotions only ensure continued suffering and negative karma. The virtue of equanimity suggests that at times things good and bad will happen to us, and that they must be endured with acceptance and grace, as all things are fleeting and attaching negative emotion to it will only bring suffering. It’s a purification of sorts, washing yourself clean of the things that would bring pain, and returning love.

In the west, Karma is seen as a sort of retributive justice system, but it doesn’t quite work that way. I would explain it more as a person floating in a pool of water. the more suffering one brings on oneself and others puts drops of sewage into that pool until it becomes toxic and the more that person suffers inside, or alternatively, the more one is a loving, accepting, moderate, and compassionate person and follows the “eightfold path” of right conduct, the more pristine the pool becomes and the person becomes closer to nirvana (which is more of a state of being than an actual place). So I think that along with compassion, the act of forgiveness is one of the bigger key concepts in Buddhism because of its importance in the goal of being infinitely compassionate, and because sometimes it’s extremely challenging to attack our ego for harboring negativity.

Hopefully that makes some sense, I’m not quite awake. To answer your other question though…

My girlfriend is Catholic, and I attend mass regularly with her. I grew up Seventh Day Adventist so I am familiar with the Lord’s Prayer and I do recite it when the time comes. It’s partially a self-affirmation to exercise forgiveness and compassion to all forms of life. The other part? Sometimes I think I’m asking for mercy. I recanted form the SDA on pretty bad terms and still question on my beliefs on the nature of the universe and God, but the very first mass i went to was about keeping one’s eyes open and I took that to heart.

 

[spockrates]

… dear spock ,

… good points these , have you thought about how god did hell for everyone and not just those that go to heaven ??? , his sacrifice was infinite in value and was for all men , not only does god forgive out of mercy but he does everyones hell for them , and forgiveness is a fruit of mercy , divine justice demands justice of all and god must be just and sinners must pay the price for their sins , but god in his mercy has taken forgiveness to the extreme and paid the price for all sinners , and god is love – your right of course , all is love that is good , the devil is trying to turn all into evil , perefct love does not just forgive and forget or be merciful , it even does your hell for you , hope all is well with you there dear mr spock , live long and prosper !!! ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

Thanks, JR, but I don’t think I deserved credit for these ideas. Like Socrates,

I am certain that this idea is not an invention of my own, since I am well aware that I know nothing. Therefore, I can only infer that I have been filled through the ears, like a pitcher, from the waters of another, though I have actually forgotten in my stupidity how this occurred, and who my informant was.

(Phaedrus, 235)

You see, I have little wisdom of my own, so I’m glad that God is merciful enough to fill my ears with insightful and helpful thoughts of people like yourself.



My gift, I suppose, is knowing how to ask questions to draw that living water from those who choose to answer my questions.



For you, I have another question!



But I think it’s one you won’t mind answering. You said, “perfect love does not just forgive and forget or be merciful, it even does your hell for you,” and I wonder how it is possible to forget the sin of another. I wonder if the word forget is the most accurate word to use. I mean, if you’ve ever had the experience of having a song in your mind that you cannot stop remembering, you probably know that forcing oneself to no longer remember something is not something one can possibly do. Oh, it can be done through trauma, such as through a concussion or through some shocking experience, but these are not methods under one’s control.

So I’m wondering if you mean that I should choose not to bring it up, rather than choose to forget. Do you mean that I should act as though the forgiven never sinned, even though I know she did?

 

[spockrates]

I think so sometimes. But take the example of forgiving somebody who murdered a loved one. That person would be in prison. You may never speak to or see that person again. But it is possible to forgive them. They may never know it. And, I think, if they are a true psychopath, they wouldn’t have the ability to CARE whether or not they were forgiven. I think that sometimes the murderer WANTS forgiveness (as we hear them say in court). Regardless of whether or not they CARE or WANT it, the victim’s family can choose to forgive them. And that forgiveness would be between the family member and God.

You mean, it’s possible to forgive the imprisoned one internally, but not externally? or it’s possible to forgive such a one by thoughts or words, but not by deed? If this is what you mean, then I’d have to agree that where it is impossible to demonstrate my forgiveness through action, I should at least forgive through thought. For example, I might forgive by praying for the power and love to not hold a grudge.

But I wonder whether it is impossible to meet face-to-face even with a prisoner on death row. I mean, at least in the United States, our laws have a tradition of taking these words of Jesus seriously:

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me,** I was in prison and you came to visit me.**’

(Matthew 25)

For our laws permit even the worst of criminals to have visitors. The very act of visiting the imprisoned one and giving such a one the chance to ask for forgiveness might itself be an act of forgiveness, or at least take forgiving to another, and more perfect, and more loving, level.

Don’t you think, then that forgiveness can (and perhaps even should) be more than what we think or say? Don’t you think it finds its perfection, and even purpose, in what what we do?

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

 

[spockrates]

Assuming that there is only one expression of love and one expression of forgivness and not different forms of each. There could be UL and CL, UF and CF.

Agreed!



I wonder if forgiving unconditionally should only be done in the mind (for example, by not holding a grudge) but never done through action (for example, by treating the one forgiven as though he had never sinned.

Let me give you a real-life example: Years ago a past employer of mine used to hold workshops where management and employees would discuss issues of ethics. I was a manager in a group home for developmentally disabled adults, and ethical decisions had to be made on a daily basis.

At one of these workshops, a person from management told a story of how she had forgiven a relative who had sexually molested her as a child. She said she forgave him, for she wanted God to forgive her. She said the way she forgave him was to forget his sin, or treat him as though he had never sexually molested her. She never called the police and had him arrested; she never told anyone he had committed this sin; she never demanded that he change his behavior. This, she said, was the only way to forgive someone.

Now she was having an ethical dilemma, for she was married and had two daughters of her own, and she attends family get togethers where the uncle who molested her has contact with her children. He had expressed interest in taking one of her daughters out of ice cream or to the zoo unsupervised. She wasn’t sure what to do, for she feared he might try to molest them, but if she acted on his past sin, she would no longer be forgiving him.

With all the gentleness and respect I could muster, I mentioned something that the Apostle Paul wrote:

Love…always protects…

(1 Corinthians 13:7)​

That experience now helps me see that forgiving in the sense of not holding a person accountable or liable for his sin is not something that one should do unconditionally. The one forgiven, I think must first meet the condition of doing something to restore trust in him and in the relationship with him. My former boss should perhaps forgive him unconditionally and without his consent or maybe even knowledge by not holding a grudge. But she should not forgive him unconditionally by acting as if he had never sinned and putting her daughters in harm’s way.

So I’m thinking UF should be what we think, but CF should be what we do. How about you? What are you thinking?

 

[spockrates]

Forgive me for taking so long to respond!

And no worries, that question is actually more relevant than you think. I can’t speak for all schools, but in my understanding there is no divine being to give forgiveness as God would. To exercise forgiveness is a way of releasing ourselves from our own suffering from our attachment to our negative emotions, as these negative emotions only ensure continued suffering and negative karma. The virtue of equanimity suggests that at times things good and bad will happen to us, and that they must be endured with acceptance and grace, as all things are fleeting and attaching negative emotion to it will only bring suffering. It’s a purification of sorts, washing yourself clean of the things that would bring pain, and returning love.

In the west, Karma is seen as a sort of retributive justice system, but it doesn’t quite work that way. I would explain it more as a person floating in a pool of water. the more suffering one brings on oneself and others puts drops of sewage into that pool until it becomes toxic and the more that person suffers inside, or alternatively, the more one is a loving, accepting, moderate, and compassionate person and follows the “eightfold path” of right conduct, the more pristine the pool becomes and the person becomes closer to nirvana (which is more of a state of being than an actual place). So I think that along with compassion, the act of forgiveness is one of the bigger key concepts in Buddhism because of its importance in the goal of being infinitely compassionate, and because sometimes it’s extremely challenging to attack our ego for harboring negativity.

Hopefully that makes some sense, I’m not quite awake. To answer your other question though…

My girlfriend is Catholic, and I attend mass regularly with her. I grew up Seventh Day Adventist so I am familiar with the Lord’s Prayer and I do recite it when the time comes. It’s partially a self-affirmation to exercise forgiveness and compassion to all forms of life. The other part? Sometimes I think I’m asking for mercy. I recanted form the SDA on pretty bad terms and still question on my beliefs on the nature of the universe and God, but the very first mass i went to was about keeping one’s eyes open and I took that to heart.

Thanks for enlightening me about Buddhism! I’m interested in learning more. My exposure to the religion is, to my embarrassment, based on what I’ve seen on TV and in the movies!



It seems to me that (based on what you said) both Christians of all kinds and Buddhists have this in common: They are searching for peace–both in this current existence and the one to come.



I know that I personally hear these words of Jesus and long for what He says He can give:

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

(John 14)

What you say about forgiveness makes sense to me. It seems it is a key to living in this state of peace.



When I think of all the times I’ve been offended and seethed with anger and how that state of mind led me to react in ways that I regret, I can see how having the kind of peace to overcome this is not only good for me, but for those I forgive. In fact, now that I think about what Jesus said, unforgiveness is, in my experience, often caused by my own fears. Forgiveness, then might be caused by courage? or perhaps forgiving is an act of courage? (Hmmm, that’s some revelation. I mean, what man wants to think of himself as a coward? If forgiveness is courageous, then that’s good incentive to forgive. I’m sure you must have similar experiences when considering the words of Buddha.)



And your words also lead me to wonder: In Buddhism, isn’t forgiving so much more than what one thinks and experiences internally to the benefit of oneself? Isn’t it also something someone says and does externally (and perhaps even at risk to oneself), to the benefit of others as well?