Will you forgive me for asking?

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Asking what forgiveness is, that is? You see, I’m not sure, and I’m thinking that since I don’t really know what forgiveness is, then I cannot really know how to forgive!

I think it’s a good topic to discuss with non-Catholics, as people of all religions advocate forgiving, I think. It might be fun, and enlightening, to have a good dialog about something we might all be able to agree upon.

But I don’t think the answer is as easy as it might seem. I mean, I’ve asked the same question at the Philosophy forum, and the Catholic Living forum, and the Sacred Scripture forum, and there was not any consensus, and more questions than answers. My hope is that we might have better results here in a non-Catholic forum–which will be surprising given the bias some Catholics have that non-Catholics cannot agree on anything!

😃

So tell me, please. What is forgiveness?
 
spockrates said:
Asking what forgiveness is, that is? You see, I’m not sure, and I’m thinking that since I don’t really know what forgiveness is, then I cannot really know how to forgive!

I think it’s a good topic to discuss with non-Catholics, as people of all religions advocate forgiving, I think. It might be fun, and enlightening, to have a good dialog about something we might all be able to agree upon.

But I don’t think the answer is as easy as it might seem. I mean, I’ve asked the same question at the Philosophy forum, and the Catholic Living forum, and the Sacred Scripture forum, and there was not any consensus, and more questions than answers. My hope is that we might have better results here in a non-Catholic forum–which will be surprising given the bias some Catholics have that non-Catholics cannot agree on anything!

😃

So tell me, please. What is forgiveness?
Click to expand...
Forgiveness is not holding a grudge against another, after you feel they have done you emotional or physical harm. It’s letting go of anything inside you that seeks vengence or retribution for the action you perceive is against you.

However people are not God, they can’t forgive the sins of another person.

I guess its more of a sense of letting go any anger and pain you are holding in your heart against another person, and moving on with things.
 
Per the Catechism:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt4sect2art3.shtml#2845

Now—and this is daunting—this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.
There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness,146 whether one speaks of “sins” as in Luke (11:4), or “debts” as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors: "Owe no one anything, except to love one another."147 The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relationship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.148

God does not accept the sacrifice of a sower of disunion, but commands that he depart from the altar so that he may first be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only by prayers that make peace. To God, the better offering is peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.149
 
Turn the question around and look at it from another angle. If you hurt someone you love, badly enough that you feel deep regret and guilt, and you ask for forgiveness, what is it you want from the other person?
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Forgiveness is not holding a grudge against another, after you feel they have done you emotional or physical harm. It’s letting go of anything inside you that seeks vengence or retribution for the action you perceive is against you.

However people are not God, they can’t forgive the sins of another person.

I guess its more of a sense of letting go any anger and pain you are holding in your heart against another person, and moving on with things.
Click to expand...
Yes, makes sense to me, Christine.

👍

But is that all forgiving is?

🤷
 
Waylander said:
Per the Catechism:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt4sect2art3.shtml#2845

Now—and this is daunting—this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.
There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness,146 whether one speaks of “sins” as in Luke (11:4), or “debts” as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors: "Owe no one anything, except to love one another."147 The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relationship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.148

God does not accept the sacrifice of a sower of disunion, but commands that he depart from the altar so that he may first be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only by prayers that make peace. To God, the better offering is peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.149
Click to expand...
Hey, Way! What do ya’ say?

2842
This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."139 It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus.140 Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.141

Is the CCC telling you and I that we should forgive others the way God forgives us? If so, what do we really mean when we ask God to forgive us?

🤷
 
seagal said:
Turn the question around and look at it from another angle. If you hurt someone you love, badly enough that you feel deep regret and guilt, and you ask for forgiveness, what is it you want from the other person?
Click to expand...
I want her to:


  1. *]not feel a grudge
    *]not seek revenge
    *]not treat me as harshly as I deserve
    *]not continue to hold me liable for my sins
    *]allow me to remain her friend

    Did I leave anything out?

    🙂
 
spockrates said:
I want her to:


  1. *]not feel a grudge
    *]not seek revenge
    *]not treat me as harshly as I deserve
    *]not continue to hold me liable for my sins
    *]allow me to remain her friend

    Did I leave anything out?

    🙂
Click to expand...

  1. But supposing the injury to her was terrible. Supposing you maimed her, or killed her child, or something equally horrible? How could she be your friend?
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Probably not:shrug: Seems like the other people who have responded seem to be more forgiving!
Click to expand...
😃

Let’s think about it this way: When we ask God to forgive us, are we asking that He not have any hard feelings toward us after He throws us into Hell? or are we asking for more than a feeling?

🤷
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
But supposing the injury to her was terrible. Supposing you maimed her, or killed her child, or something equally horrible? How could she be your friend?
Click to expand...
Great question! I suppose the injury done to Christ was worse than anything I’ve ever done to others. Yet, He prayed:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

So I’m thinking this: If my injury was great, but I did not realize I had done wrong, that would be a good reason to pardon me for what I did wrong (4) and remain my friend (5). But perhaps I’m wrong?
 
spockrates said:
😃

Let’s think about it this way: When we ask God to forgive us, are we asking that He not have any hard feelings toward us after He throws us into Hell? or are we asking for more than a feeling?

🤷
Click to expand...
God can have infinite mercy towards a sinner if he is repentant enough. But God has infininte power too. We are just poor sinners trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. However, it’s hard when the injury is too deep. I mean, 70 times 70 forgiving someone who keeps hurting you seems a little excessive!
 
spockrates said:
Great question! I suppose the injury done to Christ was worse than anything I’ve ever done to others. Yet, He prayed:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

So I’m thinking this: If my injury was great, but I did not realize I had done wrong, that would be a good reason to pardon me for what I did wrong (4) and remain my friend (5). But perhaps I’m wrong?
Click to expand...
The key is, if you didn’t realize you had done wrong…
 
so often you hear the phrase “forgive and forget” bandied about. It is confusing, because after all, we have no direct control to make ourselves forget something. Forgiving means letting go of the anger. For the most part, it is a healing process for you, the one who is hurt and angry. If you carry the anger around with you, you risk becoming embittered and losing all joy in life. I can really take over completely. It does nothing to the person you are angry at, who may, in fact, be completely oblivious of your feelings. Forgiving does not necessarily mean you must trust the one who hurt you again or invite them over for dinner with your family. It is simply a choice to not remain angry.

That being said, it isn’t always easy to let go of the hurt and anger. It can be a long process if you are hurt very badly. Prayer can really help with that.
 
Debra_C said:
so often you hear the phrase “forgive and forget” bandied about. It is confusing, because after all, we have no direct control to make ourselves forget something. Forgiving means letting go of the anger. For the most part, it is a healing process for you, the one who is hurt and angry. If you carry the anger around with you, you risk becoming embittered and losing all joy in life. I can really take over completely. It does nothing to the person you are angry at, who may, in fact, be completely oblivious of your feelings. Forgiving does not necessarily mean you must trust the one who hurt you again or invite them over for dinner with your family. It is simply a choice to not remain angry.

That being said, it isn’t always easy to let go of the hurt and anger. It can be a long process if you are hurt very badly. Prayer can really help with that.
Click to expand...
Thank you! You said that perfectly!
 
spockrates said:
Asking what forgiveness is, that is? You see, I’m not sure, and I’m thinking that since I don’t really know what forgiveness is, then I cannot really know how to forgive!

I think it’s a good topic to discuss with non-Catholics, as people of all religions advocate forgiving, I think. It might be fun, and enlightening, to have a good dialog about something we might all be able to agree upon.

But I don’t think the answer is as easy as it might seem. I mean, I’ve asked the same question at the Philosophy forum, and the Catholic Living forum, and the Sacred Scripture forum, and there was not any consensus, and more questions than answers. My hope is that we might have better results here in a non-Catholic forum–which will be surprising given the bias some Catholics have that non-Catholics cannot agree on anything!

😃

So tell me, please. What is forgiveness?
Click to expand...
Forgiveness is a decision, not an emotion. It has to do with forgiving an offense against us, not forgiving the sin. Only God can do that. We may very well still feel the sting of the offense, even after making the decision to forgive, but it is amazing what happens internally when we finally do make that decision. We are more harmed by not forgiving than the we are by the original offense. In any case, we are commanded to forgive and we will be judged by the choice we make in this regard. We will be forgiven to the degree that we forgive others.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
God can have infinite mercy towards a sinner if he is repentant enough. But God has infininte power too. We are just poor sinners trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. However, it’s hard when the injury is too deep. I mean, 70 times 70 forgiving someone who keeps hurting you seems a little excessive!
Click to expand...
Yes, as does forgiving seven times a day.

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:1-4)

But as you and Jesus both agree, sincere repentance might be the key to unlock the door to forgiving. As is faith:

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

(Luke 17:5-6)

But forgive the repentant we must! Don’t you think?
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
The key is, if you didn’t realize you had done wrong…
Click to expand...
That’s one key. The other, as you said, seems to be repentance. So do you think one must meet one of these two conditions to be forgiven in any way? or are you thinking there are some ways we should forgive even those who know full well they did wrong and refuse to repent? For example, should we hold a grudge (1) if a person knowingly sins and will not change her behavior? or is it OK to not forgive in any way under such circumstances?

You see, I’m thinking that if there is more than one way to forgive, then there is more than one kind of forgiving, and so there is not one forgiveness, but many. If I’m correct, than the key to unlocking this mystery about what forgiveness is and how to forgive is to figure out the different ways to forgive and then determine what circumstances the one to be forgiven must meet (if any) to be forgiven in each of those ways.

Do you see what I mean?

🙂
 
Debra_C said:
so often you hear the phrase “forgive and forget” bandied about. It is confusing, because after all, we have no direct control to make ourselves forget something. Forgiving means letting go of the anger. For the most part, it is a healing process for you, the one who is hurt and angry. If you carry the anger around with you, you risk becoming embittered and losing all joy in life. I can really take over completely. It does nothing to the person you are angry at, who may, in fact, be completely oblivious of your feelings. Forgiving does not necessarily mean you must trust the one who hurt you again or invite them over for dinner with your family. It is simply a choice to not remain angry.

That being said, it isn’t always easy to let go of the hurt and anger. It can be a long process if you are hurt very badly. Prayer can really help with that.
Click to expand...
DC:

I have an aunt named Debra Cavalario, but I’m sure you are not her. Small world, though!

So are you saying forgiving is a feeling, or emotion, but not an action? It is something we feel or think, but not something we say or do? If that is what you meant to convey, then I wonder whether this is the fully true. I mean, Saint John the Apostle wrote this:

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

So it seems that not only are thoughts not enough to love, but words are also inadequate! I mean, I’m thinking forgiving is a kind of love, and John tells us love must act. So if you agree, please tell me, if it is not enough to say we forgive, nor enough to feel forgiving, then what must you or I DO to forgive?

🤷
 
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