Will you forgive me for asking?

[spockrates]

Forgiveness is a decision, not an emotion. It has to do with forgiving an offense against us, not forgiving the sin. Only God can do that. We may very well still feel the sting of the offense, even after making the decision to forgive, but it is amazing what happens internally when we finally do make that decision. We are more harmed by not forgiving than the we are by the original offense. In any case, we are commanded to forgive and we will be judged by the choice we make in this regard. We will be forgiven to the degree that we forgive others.

Steve:

Thanks for your reply. Would you say that mercy is a kind of forgiveness? or that forgiveness and mercy are kinds of love?

 

[seagal]

I want her to:

1. 
   *]not feel a grudge
   *]not seek revenge
   *]not treat me as harshly as I deserve
   *]not continue to hold me liable for my sins
   *]allow me to remain her friend
   
   Did I leave anything out?
   
   

1. 
   I don’t think so
   In other words, you want her to wipe the slate clean. There are elements of mercy in your list as well. In reading your list what comes to mind is that by forgiving someone you are telling them that they, and your relationship, are more important than the hurt they caused.
   
   This is interesting, I hadn’t thought about it in those terms before. I always thought of forgiving someone as something I do for my own peace of mind so I don’t have to carry the burden of negative feelings, possibly hatred. Maybe it’s that too, but I think for Christians it’s much more.
   
   Given all that, what does it mean when you forgive a stranger, someone with whom you don’t have a relationship but who has caused you harm? I’m thinking of John Paul II forgiving the man who shot him.

 

[Frankenfurter]

If you’ve ever committed serious sin like I have, and been forgiven, you would know for sure what forgiveness is.

Forgiveness is a gift that we receive even though we don’t deserve it.

Perhaps it is an experience, not something we can describe logically.

If you have been forgiven, you would have experiences forgiveness. Perhaps there are no words that can capture it all.

 

[spockrates]

I don’t think so
In other words, you want her to wipe the slate clean.

Yes, true. Wiping it clean is what I desire to do. However, I think that if I forgave in the sense of (1) and (2) and (3) only, I would still have a dirty slate! Don’t you?

There are elements of mercy in your list as well.

Yes, I’m thinking that mercy is defined as (4). A synonym is leniency, for being lenient is being merciful. I used to think that Mercy and Forgiveness were not the same. The reason I included it in the list is that several Catholics have described forgiveness to me as being merciful. What do you think? Is Mercy a kind of Forgiveness, or Love of a different kind?

In reading your list what comes to mind is that by forgiving someone you are telling them that they, and your relationship, are more important than the hurt they caused.

Yes, and isn’t that what Jesus did when He suffered and died for you and me? Isn’t that the kind of forgiveness we want from God?

This is interesting, I hadn’t thought about it in those terms before. I always thought of forgiving someone as something I do for my own peace of mind so I don’t have to carry the burden of negative feelings, possibly hatred. Maybe it’s that too, but I think for Christians it’s much more.

Well, I think you are right! I mean, what you describe, and what I list as (1), is essential to forgiving. Can you imagine sincerely forgiving someone in any way while still holding a grudge? I cannot. So I’m thinking that my heart (or emotions or desires) have to be in it before I can genuinely forgive. Starting with my own feelings is a necessary first step to forgiving in other, and more complete, and more loving ways. Don’t you agree?

Given all that, what does it mean when you forgive a stranger, someone with whom you don’t have a relationship but who has caused you harm? I’m thinking of John Paul II forgiving the man who shot him.

What comes to mind is the advice of another Apostolic authority:

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

(Romans 12:18)

I suppose it would not be wise to consider someone a friend whose aim is to continued to do me harm. But if she will allow it, I should live at peace with her. So maybe forgiveness is a two way street? Perhaps I can only forgive to the degree someone will let me forgive her? What do you think–does it take two to forgive?

 

[spockrates]

If you’ve ever committed serious sin like I have, and been forgiven, you would know for sure what forgiveness is.

Forgiveness is a gift that we receive even though we don’t deserve it.

Perhaps it is an experience, not something we can describe logically.

If you have been forgiven, you would have experiences forgiveness. Perhaps there are no words that can capture it all.

Thank you for your frank reply, Franken.



You might be right that there is only so much we can understand about Forgiveness, and other forms of Love (for I’m thinking that forgiving is a kind of love). But it seems to me that understanding such loving forgiveness was the Apostle Paul’s prayer for us:

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3)

We’re on holy ground here, my friend. Take off your shoes!



And put on your thinking cap, and get on your knees and pray for wisdom. For this Forgiveness reaches higher, and these forgiving arms are open wider, and the concept of being forgiven is deeper than many presume! Let’s try to grasp her full dimensions, and be living answers to Paul’s prayer. Please try to answer this question: If forgiveness is a gift, then what (if anything) does the one you want to forgive have to do to accept the gift from you? Or what (if anything) did you have to do to accept forgiveness from the One who forgave you?

 

[seagal]

Yes, true. Wiping it clean is what I desire to do. However, I think that if I forgave in the sense of (1) and (2) and (3) only, I would still have a dirty slate! Don’t you?

Absolutely.

Yes, I’m thinking that mercy is defined as (4). A synonym is leniency, for being lenient is being merciful. I used to think that Mercy and Forgiveness were not the same. The reason I included it in the list is that several Catholics have described forgiveness to me as being merciful. What do you think? Is Mercy a kind of Forgiveness, or Love of a different kind?

To accept forgiveness you have to know that you are worthy of it as a Child of God. We are not worthy in ourselves, but as His children we are. We have to remember that it is a gift and it would be disrespectful and ungrateful of us to return the gift unopened.

 

[spockrates]

It may be semantics, but I think Mercy is part of forgiveness, not a separate entity. You wouldn’t need mercy if you hadn’t done something for which you need forgiveness.

Thanks for replying. Before I respond to the rest, will you clarify what you said in the quoted text? Not sure I understand, and perhaps you made a typo. I’m thinking that *if *Mercy is *always *part of what Forgiveness is, then it is *impossible *to forgive without showing mercy. So the only way that I would *not *need mercy when I needed forgiveness would be if Mercy was *different *from Forgiveness. Your two statements appear to contradict each other, but I’m sure you just recorded your thoughts incorrectly. Reminds me of something Socrates said:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others…

(Phaedrus, 237)

I think it might help me avoid confusing you (and even myself!) if we start by defining what Mercy and Forgiveness actually are. How would you define them?

 

[seagal]

Thanks for replying. Before I respond to the rest, will you clarify what you said in the quoted text? Not sure I understand, and perhaps you made a typo. I’m thinking that if Mercy is always part of what Forgiveness is, then it is impossible to forgive without showing mercy. So the only way that I would not need mercy when I needed forgiveness would be if Mercy was different from Forgiveness. Your two statements appear to contradict each other, but I’m sure you just recorded your thoughts incorrectly. Reminds me of something Socrates said:
No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others…

(Phaedrus, 237)
I think it might help me avoid confusing you (and even myself!) if we start by defining what Mercy and Forgiveness actually are. How would you define them?

Wow, Socrates was right on! I see people on this forum (the only one I belong to) falling into that trap all the time, myself included

Let me see if I can untangle those statements about forgiveness and mercy. You originally asked
*Is Mercy a kind of Forgiveness, or Love of a different kind? *

To my way of thinking, mercy isn’t a kind of forgiveness, but it is a necessary part of forgiving someone. My second statement was trying to illustrate that. You would not hope for someone to show mercy to you unless you needed it, ie by doing something hurtful, for which you would also hope for forgiveness. Does that make it clearer?

 

[spockrates]

Wow, Socrates was right on! I see people on this forum (the only one I belong to) falling into that trap all the time, myself included

Let me see if I can untangle those statements about forgiveness and mercy. You originally asked
*Is Mercy a kind of Forgiveness, or Love of a different kind? *

To my way of thinking, mercy isn’t a kind of forgiveness, but it is a necessary part of forgiving someone. My second statement was trying to illustrate that. You would not hope for someone to show mercy to you unless you needed it, ie by doing something hurtful, for which you would also hope for forgiveness. Does that make it clearer?

Yes, clearer than mud, anyway!



OK, let’s test the theory that whatever Forgiveness is, it is not Mercy. I suppose we should begin by defining what Mercy is before we take on the more difficult task of proving what Forgiveness isn’t. How would you define Mercy?

 

[spockrates]

So I’m astonished that no non-Catholics have participated in this discussion. Is it a topic Protestants and other Christians don’t find worthy of discussing, or are there no non-Catholics left at the CAF?

 

[seagal]

Yes, clearer than mud, anyway!



OK, let’s test the theory that whatever Forgiveness is, it is not Mercy. I suppose we should begin by defining what Mercy is before we take on the more difficult task of proving what Forgiveness isn’t. How would you define Mercy?

Whenever I want a better understanding of the meaning of a word I always refer to a higher power, in this case merriam-webster.com

So, according to them, these are the definitions of mercy and forgiveness (edited for our purposes).

**Definition of Mercy:
**1 a: compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one’s power; also: lenient or compassionate treatment

2 a: a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion

3 compassionate treatment of those in distress

Synonyms: charity, clemency, forbearance, lenience, leniency, lenity, mercifulness, quarter

Antonyms: coldheartedness, hard-heartedness, inhumanity, inhumanness, mercilessness, pitilessness

#1 suggests the mercy is given to someone who is somehow in your power. That could apply in relationships as well, since you have the power to end a relationship with someone who hurt you.
#3 shows that mercy is not used only where forgiveness is needed. However, can you have forgiveness without mercy, I believe that’s the question?

**Definition of Forgiveness
**1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for
b: to grant relief from payment of
2 to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :

Synonyms: absolution, amnesty, pardon, remission, remittal

Antonyms: penalty, punishment, retribution, resent

The 2 are very close, although mercy seems to be more emotional in nature. Also, mercy seems to be something conferred on someone else, forgiveness is more about yourself, giving up a debt or resentment. At least that’s my take on it.
What do you think?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Whenever I want a better understanding of the meaning of a word I always refer to a higher power, in this case merriam-webster.com

So, according to them, these are the definitions of mercy and forgiveness (edited for our purposes).

#1 suggests the mercy is given to someone who is somehow in your power. That could apply in relationships as well, since you have the power to end a relationship with someone who hurt you.
#3 shows that mercy is not used only where forgiveness is needed. However, can you have forgiveness without mercy, I believe that’s the question?

The 2 are very close, although mercy seems to be more emotional in nature. Also, mercy seems to be something conferred on someone else, forgiveness is more about yourself, giving up a debt or resentment. At least that’s my take on it.
What do you think?

It is all very well to have these discussions in semantics, however let’s get down to the nitty gritty of forgiveness. A good example of someone who keeps forgiving is a women who is continually being physically abused by her spouse. He will ask for forgiveness after he has beaten her up and she will give it and give it, and often die because of her forgiveness.

Of course, the only thing for her to do is to get out of the situation, and get away from that person. Then, later in her heart, maybe she can forgive this person, but she cannot actually ever be around this person again.

 

[spockrates]

Whenever I want a better understanding of the meaning of a word I always refer to a higher power, in this case merriam-webster.com

Definition of Mercy:
1 a: compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one’s power; also: lenient or compassionate treatment

2 a: a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion

3 compassionate treatment of those in distress

Synonyms: charity, clemency, forbearance, lenience, leniency, lenity, mercifulness, quarter

Antonyms: coldheartedness, hard-heartedness, inhumanity, inhumanness, mercilessness, pitilessness

…

#1 suggests the mercy is given to someone who is somehow in your power. That could apply in relationships as well, since you have the power to end a relationship with someone who hurt you.
#3 shows that mercy is not used only where forgiveness is needed. However, can you have forgiveness without mercy, I believe that’s the question?

Yes, good idea!



I’m also thinking you are right about (3), for one can be compassionate even toward someone who does not need to be forgiven. I’d add that (3) is describing the emotion of pity, and since pity can be shown to someone who has not wronged you or me, it is an emotion that is not a trait of Forgiveness.

I’m thinking a good way to summarize (1) is to say Mercy is being lenient. So if Forgiveness is not Mercy, then Forgiveness is not being lenient, or at least being lenient would not be required to forgive. Also, if Mercy is not Forgiveness then one might show mercy to one he does not forgive. For one might be lenient to one he does not forgive.

I suppose the question to answer is this: Is it possible to be lenient to someone you or I do not forgive? To answer THAT question, we’d have to consider a definition for Forgiveness for comparison.

 

[spockrates]

Definition of Forgiveness
1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for
b: to grant relief from payment of
2 to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :

Synonyms: absolution, amnesty, pardon, remission, remittal

Antonyms: penalty, punishment, retribution, resent

The 2 are very close, although mercy seems to be more emotional in nature. Also, mercy seems to be something conferred on someone else, forgiveness is more about yourself, giving up a debt or resentment. At least that’s my take on it.
What do you think?

Close enough to be twins, but not necessarily identical ones! I currently think that the emotion of peace (or not feeling resentment) is different from the emotion of pity (or feeling compassion for one who is suffering). It might be possible to forgive someone we don’t necessarily pity. Then again, perhaps we should pity everyone we forgive? What do you think?

http://www.honcho-sfx.com/Images/Products/MrT_ye_bl_cl.jpg

Was Mr. T’s pity for the criminals he gunned down an act of forgiveness?

 

[spockrates]

I suppose his pity was often an act of mercy, for he shot to maim instead of shooting to kill. But I’m not so sure it was an act of forgiveness.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve:

Thanks for your reply. Would you say that mercy is a kind of forgiveness? or that forgiveness and mercy are kinds of love?

Everything eminates from love, including mercy and forgiveness. I don’t think you can have one without the other. Mercy and forgiveness are Love in action. It is how we put flesh on the words of the Gospel. If you love someone, how could you not show mercy, and how could you not forgive them?

 

[Carlan]

It is all very well to have these discussions in semantics, however let’s get down to the nitty gritty of forgiveness. A good example of someone who keeps forgiving is a women who is continually being physically abused by her spouse. He will ask for forgiveness after he has beaten her up and she will give it and give it, and often die because of her forgiveness.

Of course, the only thing for her to do is to get out of the situation, and get away from that person. Then, later in her heart, maybe she can forgive this person, but she cannot actually ever be around this person again.

Hmmm,yep, get away, work through it with God’s help and in your heart forgive, then be smart enough to never forget it! Peace, Carlan

 

[raaucoin]

Forgiveness is letting God open the door to the future.

 

[spockrates]

Everything eminates from love, including mercy and forgiveness. I don’t think you can have one without the other. Mercy and forgiveness are Love in action. It is how we put flesh on the words of the Gospel. If you love someone, how could you not show mercy, and how could you not forgive them?

Yes, that’s helpful, Steve!


Now all we have to do is determine what action constitutes Mercy and what action constitutes Forgiveness, and we are on our way to knowing how to forgive! Please tell me, what do I DO to show mercy? What do I DO to forgive?

 

[spockrates]

Hmmm,yep, get away, work through it with God’s help and in your heart forgive, then be smart enough to never forget it! Peace, Carlan

I hope you don’t mind my asking, Carlan: If I try to never forget the wrong done to me, then how can I keep from holding a grudge? Isn’t holding a grudge the same as not forgiving?