Will you forgive me for asking?

[John_Russell_Jr]

Thanks, JR, but I don’t think I deserved credit for these ideas. Like Socrates,
I am certain that this idea is not an invention of my own, since I am well aware that I know nothing. Therefore, I can only infer that I have been filled through the ears, like a pitcher, from the waters of another, though I have actually forgotten in my stupidity how this occurred, and who my informant was.

(Phaedrus, 235)
You see, I have little wisdom of my own, so I’m glad that God is merciful enough to fill my ears with insightful and helpful thoughts of people like yourself.



My gift, I suppose, is knowing how to ask questions to draw that living water from those who choose to answer my questions.



For you, I have another question!



But I think it’s one you won’t mind answering. You said, “perfect love does not just forgive and forget or be merciful, it even does your hell for you,” and I wonder how it is possible to forget the sin of another. I wonder if the word forget is the most accurate word to use. I mean, if you’ve ever had the experience of having a song in your mind that you cannot stop remembering, you probably know that forcing oneself to no longer remember something is not something one can possibly do. Oh, it can be done through trauma, such as through a concussion or through some shocking experience, but these are not methods under one’s control.

So I’m wondering if you mean that I should choose not to bring it up, rather than choose to forget. Do you mean that I should act as though the forgiven never sinned, even though I know she did?

… dear spock ,

… good questions , and your quite intelligent you know , no fool at all you , about forget , i know two stories i’ll tell you , when st margaret mary started to see our lord to get the sacred heart revelations she told her spiritual director and he did not believe her , so to test her he said the next time our lord appears ask him what my last mortal sin was ??? , she did and went back to her sd and he asked what the answer was , and she said jesus said i don’t remember , the sd realised he’d confessed his sin and it was completely blotted out , he was shocked by this knowledge that god forgot his sin completely , scripture says : though your sins be as scarlet they shall be made white as snow , another thing i’ve heard is it is common practise to confess all sins even very small ones before attending an exorcism as even the devils are forced to forget your sins once absolved , and hence they cannot tell all your sins there and blow little sins out of proprtion to embarrass you and so on , i assume it’s true , when we try and forget it is more that we have a firm attitude and resolve never to use the offense against others , we don’t bring it up when mad to get back at others , even in our minds , that is a goal for us , not easy but perfection is not easy for anyone of course , hope this answers your questions dear friend ,

… can you tell me : is this line of q for a specific reason / s or just the pursuit of true knowledge ??? , eitherway ok , just like to know if you are able to say that is ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[spockrates]

… can you tell me : is this line of q for a specific reason / s or just the pursuit of true knowledge ??? , eitherway ok , just like to know if you are able to say that is ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

For me, I’d think myself unwise indeed if I were to pursue wisdom only for wisdom’s sake. For one who finds the truth but does not go where He leads is unwise indeed!



So my goal is not only to learn what forgiveness is, but to use what I learn to help me better forgive, and better be forgiven. There are people in my life who need to be forgiven, and I need forgiveness, so I’m looking for the best way to go about it.

I think to a lesser degree there are some misconceptions about forgiveness, or at least some incomplete knowledge about what forgiveness really is, and discussing this with others helps them find a better understanding, too.

But my purpose is the same as that of Socrates, I think.

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this—that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.

(Phaedo)

Like Socrates, I’m not into partisan philosophy, nor partisan politics, nor partisan religion. I used to be. When I was an Evangelical I spent a lot of time at discussion forums like these winning arguments, but losing people, and losing sigh of the truth! But CAF changed me, as did the words of Socrates and Christ, and I’m now more concerned with convincing myself of the truth, rather than trying to convince others. Convincing others might be a byproduct of my own search for truth, but my goal is to better understand the truth myself.

Why so many questions? I suppose I cannot get any answers without asking questions! It’s the Socratic method, and it is employed by one who has faith that those who don’t have the answers will receive the answers if you keep asking them questions that they struggle to answer. Socrates believed the process was one of getting a person to remember the wisdom they once knew when in the presence of God before they were born; I think the process is perhaps more likely one of the Holy Spirit giving wisdom to others who strive to answer my questions.

It was a long discussion like this that convinced me of the truth of the Catholic faith; something I thought at the time was not possible.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

For me, I’d think myself unwise indeed if I were to pursue wisdom only for wisdom’s sake. For one who finds the truth but does not go where He leads is unwise indeed!



So my goal is not only to learn what forgiveness is, but to use what I learn to help me better forgive, and better be forgiven. There are people in my life who need to be forgiven, and I need forgiveness, so I’m looking for the best way to go about it.

I think to a lesser degree there are some misconceptions about forgiveness, or at least some incomplete knowledge about what forgiveness really is, and discussing this with others helps them find a better understanding, too.

But my purpose is the same as that of Socrates, I think.
Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this—that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.

(Phaedo)
Like Socrates, I’m not into partisan philosophy, nor partisan politics, nor partisan religion. I used to be. When I was an Evangelical I spent a lot of time at discussion forums like these winning arguments, but losing people, and losing sigh of the truth! But CAF changed me, as did the words of Socrates and Christ, and I’m now more concerned with convincing myself of the truth, rather than trying to convince others. Convincing others might be a byproduct of my own search for truth, but my goal is to better understand the truth myself.

Why so many questions? I suppose I cannot get any answers without asking questions! It’s the Socratic method, and it is employed by one who has faith that those who don’t have the answers will receive the answers if you keep asking them questions that they struggle to answer. Socrates believed the process was one of getting a person to remember the wisdom they once knew when in the presence of God before they were born; I think the process is perhaps more likely one of the Holy Spirit giving wisdom to others who strive to answer my questions.

It was a long discussion like this that convinced me of the truth of the Catholic faith; something I thought at the time was not possible.

… dear spock ,

… thanks for telling me , for me the purpose of all human communication is problem solving , i embark on this in a pursuit of truth and often think outside the square freely to find truth , i get criticised a lot for this , people misunderstand me , but i believe i’ve found the answer to everything and anything , it is – god = love , or just " love " , sounds simple but all is god or all in many and all ways relates to god and god is love , all that is good is love , truth = love , reality = love , the only problem with our whole world is evil has entered it and evil = opposite of love ,but ultimately when thought right though and taken to the ultimate conclusion everything = love , the meaning , purpose and value of everything is love , love really is the answer to everything , there’s an awful lot more to this of course , just thought i’d tell you where my search has led me ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[OscarsMama]

You mean, it’s possible to forgive the imprisoned one internally, but not externally? or it’s possible to forgive such a one by thoughts or words, but not by deed? If this is what you mean, then I’d have to agree that where it is impossible to demonstrate my forgiveness through action, I should at least forgive through thought. For example, I might forgive by praying for the power and love to not hold a grudge.

But I wonder whether it is impossible to meet face-to-face even with a prisoner on death row. I mean, at least in the United States, our laws have a tradition of taking these words of Jesus seriously:

Don’t you think, then that forgiveness can (and perhaps even should) be more than what we think or say? Don’t you think it finds its perfection, and even purpose, in what what we do?
]

To answer the question about actually meeting somebody in prison: I don’t want to get that far off topic, but it is more than just “drive to the prison, ask to see the guy, see him, speak to him, and then leave.” The process for a prison visit can take months to get approved. And that is contingent upon the prisoner approving you (the victim) as a visitor. Many times it requires that you or the prisoner have to attend classes and do assignments prior to the meeting.

Now, because this is such a long process, many crime victims find it difficult to forgive the offender. Because they can’t see him, can’t speak to him, and can’t write to him, either. (As for the mail being sent to those in prison–whether death row or minimum security—it is all read and analyzed. If it is found to be inappropriate in any way, it is not given to the prisoner. Also, the prisoner can reject to receive any mail from said person*).

So, because of all of that… I think that many people can work to forgive a person in thought. And through THEIR actions. I guess that forgiveness of the offender who is in prison that can’t be visited personally would mean that although the person never forgets the harm, they learn to not let it steal their happiness. It is a different kind of happiness (as any crime victim will tell you), but it is a happiness. By forgiveness, you are telling the offender “YOU WILL NO LONGER HURT ME.” You have to cut those trama bonds from the person.

Like I said… much easier said than done.

I think that forgiveness starts in our own hearts. And then our thoughts. And then, and only then, will it come out into our actions. Because many people know, just saying “yeah, I forgive you for blah blah blah” doesn’t mean much unless your actions show it.

Bottom line: forgiveness is not being stuck anymore. Forgiveness is REMEMBERING that you were hurt, scared, offended, annoyed, disappointed… but saying that, although you remember, you are not in the moment anymore.

Easier said than done.

 

[spockrates]

… dear spock ,

… thanks for telling me , for me the purpose of all human communication is problem solving , i embark on this in a pursuit of truth and often think outside the square freely to find truth , i get criticised a lot for this , people misunderstand me , but i believe i’ve found the answer to everything and anything , it is – god = love , or just " love " , sounds simple but all is god or all in many and all ways relates to god and god is love , all that is good is love , truth = love , reality = love , the only problem with our whole world is evil has entered it and evil = opposite of love ,but ultimately when thought right though and taken to the ultimate conclusion everything = love , the meaning , purpose and value of everything is love , love really is the answer to everything , there’s an awful lot more to this of course , just thought i’d tell you where my search has led me ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

Well, I wonder about the meaning of the Apostle’s words:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

I wonder because I know that God is loving, but I don’t know that God is love. For if God is love, then love is God. So I wonder if the words should not be taken in a literal sense.

For example, it is clear that Barack H. Obama is President of the United States, and that the President of the United States is Barack H. Obama. One might express this in simple logic as

B = P

so

P = B

I can also understand that the Father is God and God is the Father, and can express this in simple logic as

F = G

so

G = F

But to say that God is Love so Love is God does not make logical sense given the common meaning of the word Love. I mean, expressed logically it would be

G = L

so

L = G

And if this were the literal truth, then every time I feel compassion, my feeling is God. For it is also true that

L = C

so it would have to be true that

C = G

Then God is reduced to nothing but a feeling I have and express, and not a being who exists apart from my feelings.

But perhaps I’m misunderstanding what Love is? Tell me please, JR. What is Love? or what does the word Love mean in the statement, “God is Love”?

 

[SteveVH]

Well, I wonder about the meaning of the Apostle’s words:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

I wonder because I know that God is loving, but I don’t know that God is love. For if God is love, then love is God. So I wonder if the words should not be taken in a literal sense.

For example, it is clear that Barack H. Obama is President of the United States, and that the President of the United States is Barack H. Obama. One might express this in simple logic as

B = P

so

P = B

I can also understand that the Father is God and God is the Father, and can express this in simple logic as

F = G

so

G = F

But to say that God is Love so Love is God does not make logical sense given the common meaning of the word Love. I mean, expressed logically it would be

G = L

so

L = G

And if this were the literal truth, then every time I feel compassion, my feeling is God. For it is also true that

L = C

so it would have to be true that

C = G

Then God is reduced to nothing but a feeling I have and express, and not a being who exists apart from my feelings.

But perhaps I’m misunderstanding what Love is? Tell me please, JR. What is Love? or what does the word Love mean in the statement, “God is Love”?

The Apostle John tell us in no uncertain terms that “God is love.” What that means to me is that wherever love resides, there God also resides. Yes, love (authentic love) is God and whoever lives in love lives in God. This is why the pigmy in the furthest reaches of the Amazon, who has never heard of Jesus Christ, can be saved. If he follows the law of love, he follows the law of God. So yes, they are interchangeable. Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians “Love is patient, love is kind…” etc. make perfect sense if you replace the word “love” with “God”. Love is not a thing, it is a Person.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Apostle John tell us in no uncertain terms that “God is love.” What that means to me is that wherever love resides, there God also resides. Yes, love (authentic love) is God and whoever lives in love lives in God. This is why the pigmy in the furthest reaches of the Amazon, who has never heard of Jesus Christ, can be saved. If he follows the law of love, he follows the law of God. So yes, they are interchangeable. Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians “Love is patient, love is kind…” etc. make perfect sense if you replace the word “love” with “God”. Love is not a thing, it is a Person.

Adding to this: it is often said in Eastern theology that the Trinity is the ultimate expression of divine love. Because the three members of the Trinity are one through perfect divine love (as well as being one in essence), the very act of existing as a Triune God is an eternal expression of love. As humans existing in as the one body of the Church, I think we are supposed to be, in some ways, an icon of the Trinity. This is how some explain the line, “Let us love one another that with one mind we may confess,” which is said before confessing the Creed during Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Our love makes us one as the Trinity is one in love. In that way, love is the very essence and being of God, and love is the ultimate expression of God’s power. We must always remember that our very existence and free will is given to us by God in love, and that we must use our free will and existence to return his infinite love for us with what little love we are able to offer in comparison. God truly is love.

 

[SteveVH]

Adding to this: it is often said in Eastern theology that the Trinity is the ultimate expression of divine love. Because the three members of the Trinity are one through perfect divine love (as well as being one in essence), the very act of existing as a Triune God is an eternal expression of love. As humans existing in as the one body of the Church, I think we are supposed to be, in some ways, an icon of the Trinity. This is how some explain the line, “Let us love one another that with one mind we may confess,” which is said before confessing the Creed during Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Our love makes us one as the Trinity is one in love. In that way, love is the very essence and being of God, and love is the ultimate expression of God’s power. We must always remember that our very existence and free will is given to us by God in love, and that we must use our free will and existence to return his infinite love for us with what little love we are able to offer in comparison. God truly is love.

Beautiful! And the fact that God is love is evidence of the Trinitarian nature of God. God could not be Love if He were both solitary and eternal. There cannot be love unless there is also a beloved. So yes, God’s very being is Love and to answer spockrates’ question, LOVE IS GOD.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Beautiful! And the fact that God is love is evidence of the Trinitarian nature of God. God could not be Love if He were both solitary and eternal. There cannot be love unless there is also a beloved. So yes, God’s very being is Love and to answer spockrates’ question, LOVE IS GOD.

Another thing is that we are in the image and likeness of God. Because of the likeness we have from God, we are endowed with all sorts of God’s abilities including our intellect, our free will, our creativity (for humans too have the ability to create. The Eucharist, for example, is not simply made of wheat and grapes, but bread and wine, two uniquely human creations), and most importantly our capacity to love. When we exercise our capacity for unconditional love (agape) and return to God what He has given to us (as Alexander Schmemann put it, we can interpret the passage in Genesis where God tells Adam that he is to eat freely of all things in the Garden of Eden but the forbidden fruit as meaning, “the world is God’s blessing to mankind, and we throughout physical creation are the only creatures uniquely endowed to bless Him in return for His gift”), then we can truly restore our image which has become distorted by sin and become fitting icons of His Holy Image.

In this way, not only is God love, but our ability to love is central to our salvation. Tying this all back into the original question on the nature of forgiveness, we must always forgive because to be unforgiving is to be resentful. Hatred and resentment are the antithesis of love, and because of this, they are also the antithesis of God. When we are unforgiving, we cut ourselves off completely from the very source of eternal life by doing the one action which is contrary to the nature of God, hating. Forgiveness is both an act of love and an act of mercy. If we are unloving and unmerciful, then when God, in His infinite mercy, resurrects us into eternal life, His infinite unconditional love, which was the agent of our resurrection, shall burn our unloving hearts and be to us hellfire for eternity. We must always forgive, no matter how deeply we are wronged, out of true Christian love for those who have wronged us. To do otherwise is to declare that you hate God and would rather burn for eternity rather than simply letting go of inconsequential worldly transgressions.

 

[spockrates]

To answer the question about actually meeting somebody in prison: I don’t want to get that far off topic, but it is more than just “drive to the prison, ask to see the guy, see him, speak to him, and then leave.” The process for a prison visit can take months to get approved. And that is contingent upon the prisoner approving you (the victim) as a visitor. Many times it requires that you or the prisoner have to attend classes and do assignments prior to the meeting.

Now, because this is such a long process, many crime victims find it difficult to forgive the offender. Because they can’t see him, can’t speak to him, and can’t write to him, either. (As for the mail being sent to those in prison–whether death row or minimum security—it is all read and analyzed. If it is found to be inappropriate in any way, it is not given to the prisoner. Also, the prisoner can reject to receive any mail from said person*).

So, because of all of that… I think that many people can work to forgive a person in thought. And through THEIR actions. I guess that forgiveness of the offender who is in prison that can’t be visited personally would mean that although the person never forgets the harm, they learn to not let it steal their happiness. It is a different kind of happiness (as any crime victim will tell you), but it is a happiness. By forgiveness, you are telling the offender “YOU WILL NO LONGER HURT ME.” You have to cut those trama bonds from the person.

Like I said… much easier said than done.

Yes, Mama, perhaps there are times when one can only forgive (this side of Eternity) in thoughts or words, but indeed not in deeds. The forgiveness of the condemned criminal on the cross next to Jesus comes to mind:

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]”

43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

(Luke 23)

Jesus was nailed to the cross, struggling to lift Himself up just to take another breath to say the words. He was unable to do anything–or was He? By saying that the condemned would be in Paradise with Him, was He not saying that the condemned would be pardoned?



This was indeed a hard thing for Christ to do! For death from crucifixion is often by asphyxiation, and conserving every breath is necessary for survival. Though it was difficult for Jesus to forgive as He suffered excruciating pain and struggled to survive lone enough to say what He had to say, He forgave anyway. Yes, I agree that it it can be difficult to forgive another to the extreme of pardoning the person, but it was one of the last acts that Jesus Himself did. Shouldn’t we make the effort and even suffer to do the same?

I think that forgiveness starts in our own hearts. And then our thoughts. And then, and only then, will it come out into our actions. Because many people know, just saying “yeah, I forgive you for blah blah blah” doesn’t mean much unless your actions show it.

Bottom line: forgiveness is not being stuck anymore. Forgiveness is REMEMBERING that you were hurt, scared, offended, annoyed, disappointed… but saying that, although you remember, you are not in the moment anymore.

Easier said than done.

But if forgiveness stops short of doing something for the one forgiven (like Jesus pardoning the condemned on the cross next to Him) then is it the kind of forgiveness God wants from us, or does it fall short of His desire? I mean, does God unstick us to do nothing, or does He set us free so that we should do something? What would the disciple whom Jesus loved (and forgave) say?

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(John 3:18)

 

[spockrates]

The Apostle John tell us in no uncertain terms that “God is love.” What that means to me is that wherever love resides, there God also resides. Yes, love (authentic love) is God and whoever lives in love lives in God. This is why the pigmy in the furthest reaches of the Amazon, who has never heard of Jesus Christ, can be saved. If he follows the law of love, he follows the law of God. So yes, they are interchangeable. Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians “Love is patient, love is kind…” etc. make perfect sense if you replace the word “love” with “God”. Love is not a thing, it is a Person.

I suppose you would say, then that the Beatles were right? All we really do need is love, for that’s what God is!



Or would you say that we need more than love, for God is more than a feeling?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Well, I wonder about the meaning of the Apostle’s words:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

I wonder because I know that God is loving, but I don’t know that God is love. For if God is love, then love is God. So I wonder if the words should not be taken in a literal sense.

For example, it is clear that Barack H. Obama is President of the United States, and that the President of the United States is Barack H. Obama. One might express this in simple logic as

B = P

so

P = B

I can also understand that the Father is God and God is the Father, and can express this in simple logic as

F = G

so

G = F

But to say that God is Love so Love is God does not make logical sense given the common meaning of the word Love. I mean, expressed logically it would be

G = L

so

L = G

And if this were the literal truth, then every time I feel compassion, my feeling is God. For it is also true that

L = C

so it would have to be true that

C = G

Then God is reduced to nothing but a feeling I have and express, and not a being who exists apart from my feelings.

But perhaps I’m misunderstanding what Love is? Tell me please, JR. What is Love? or what does the word Love mean in the statement, “God is Love”?

… dear spock ,

… it is really too big a question to expain what god = love means , it is way beyond our ability to ever understand or comprehend i’m afraid , we can know a few bits and pieces for sure , i think you can never stop learning but this is something beyond the human mind altogether , the best we can do is know it in our heart without words , the heart is the only real part of us that can understand this , at least as much as possible , the concept of love is beyond infinite as is god , i’ve delved into this q quite a lot and can’t repeat it all right now , it’d take forever , only god can ever know and undersand and appreciate god fully , we cannot , human words are hopelessly inadequate to explain god really , if you really want to know a lot that the church teaches about this you can read the holy father pbxvi’s encyclical entitled - god is love , here vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html it answers all your q’s on this dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[OscarsMama]

But if forgiveness stops short of doing something for the one forgiven (like Jesus pardoning the condemned on the cross next to Him) then is it the kind of forgiveness God wants from us, or does it fall short of His desire? I mean, does God unstick us to do nothing, or does He set us free so that we should do something? What would the disciple whom Jesus loved (and forgave) say?

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(John 3:18)

Interesting. I had never really thought about it like that, but it kind of makes sense. What do you think that we should DO to forgive somebody? I mean, I know that there are times where it would be impossible to do something (like discussed before). But, if you still see/speak to the person each day, what would a person in the year 2011 do???

 

[rinnie]

Let’s test the spirit of what you say to see whether it is true: If God’s love is always unconditional, and God’s forgiveness is always conditional, then forgiveness cannot possibly be an act of love. The logical form of the argument:

L = U
F = C
U is not = C
therefore,
F is not = L

where
L is Love
F is Forgiveness
C is conditional
and
U is unconditional

We would then have to conclude that either:

1. 
   *]We cannot love someone by forgiving them, for Forgiveness cannot be an act of Love.
   
   or
   
   *]We are incorrect in thinking that loving is always unconditional, for sometimes (as in the case of Forgiveness) Love requires conditions be met before she acts.
   
   I’m thinking the correct inference must be (2), how about you?
   
   

1. 
   Spock what in the world are you talking about
   
   Listen up! God’s Love is unconditional, there is NOTHING that we do or can do to earn his Love for us. ITS FREE, a free Gift.
   
   Forgiveness is conditional simply BECAUSE we have to earn it, do something for it.
   
   We do not have to do anything for GOD to love us. ITs Free! ITs a given!
   
   God loves us no matter what. Even if we refuse to Love him back or accept him. But just because he loves us does not mean we do not have to ASK for forgiveness.
   
   You got apples and oranges here buddy.
   
   If we sin we must ask our Lord to forgive us. And he will. But we have to DO something which puts a CONDITION on it and that means ASK. You got i!!
   
   With that said we don’t HAVE to ask God to Love us. He already DOES. But if you want forgiveness you have to ASK!! In the bible it is called REPENT, Confess!!

 

[rinnie]

… dear spock ,

… it is really too big a question to expain what god = love means , it is way beyond our ability to ever understand or comprehend i’m afraid , we can know a few bits and pieces for sure , i think you can never stop learning but this is something beyond the human mind altogether , the best we can do is know it in our heart without words , the heart is the only real part of us that can understand this , at least as much as possible , the concept of love is beyond infinite as is god , i’ve delved into this q quite a lot and can’t repeat it all right now , it’d take forever , only god can ever know and undersand and appreciate god fully , we cannot , human words are hopelessly inadequate to explain god really , if you really want to know a lot that the church teaches about this you can read the holy father pbxvi’s encyclical entitled - god is love , here vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html it answers all your q’s on this dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

To explain God’s love is hard to explain but it isn’t really. Simply because if you have kids think of the Love that you have for them. Even if they disrespect you etc. There is a part of your heart that loves and forgives them no matter what.

Then take the love you have for them and that can’t even COMPARE to the Love our Father in heaven has for us

You think about it sometimes how many times our kids can do wrong, etc. but as soon as they walk into that door or are sad etc you are always there to pick them up. That is true Love.

THat child in no way earned that LOVE. ITs GOd, ITs Free and its unconditional. Its the free gift that is passed on from generation to generation!!

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

To explain God’s love is hard to explain but it isn’t really. Simply because if you have kids think of the Love that you have for them. Even if they disrespect you etc. There is a part of your heart that loves and forgives them no matter what.

Then take the love you have for them and that can’t even COMPARE to the Love our Father in heaven has for us

You think about it sometimes how many times our kids can do wrong, etc. but as soon as they walk into that door or are sad etc you are always there to pick them up. That is true Love.

THat child in no way earned that LOVE. ITs GOd, ITs Free and its unconditional. Its the free gift that is passed on from generation to generation!!

… that’s a great explanation dear friend , thank you …

 

[rinnie]

… that’s a great explanation dear friend , thank you …

I bet you have Kids Allso

 

[Cavaradossi]

To explain God’s love is hard to explain but it isn’t really. Simply because if you have kids think of the Love that you have for them. Even if they disrespect you etc. There is a part of your heart that loves and forgives them no matter what.

Then take the love you have for them and that can’t even COMPARE to the Love our Father in heaven has for us

You think about it sometimes how many times our kids can do wrong, etc. but as soon as they walk into that door or are sad etc you are always there to pick them up. That is true Love.

THat child in no way earned that LOVE. ITs GOd, ITs Free and its unconditional. Its the free gift that is passed on from generation to generation!!

He is the Father, and we are all his prodigal sons. Even Christ himself explains the love of God in this manner. A very good analogy indeed.

 

[spockrates]

Interesting. I had never really thought about it like that, but it kind of makes sense. What do you think that we should DO to forgive somebody? I mean, I know that there are times where it would be impossible to do something (like discussed before). But, if you still see/speak to the person each day, what would a person in the year 2011 do???

Yes, fascinating! Glad you were so pleasantly surprised as I was to learn this, Mama.



(And sorry for not replying until now. Have a bit of a family crisis that is putting what I’m learning about forgiveness to the test.)

What should we do? I think Jesus says something that might help us know what to do:

"So watch yourselves. If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

The process seems to be this:

1. • Someone commits the kind of sin against you that you should not overlook
   • You privately talk to the person and reason with her and rebuke her as gently and respectfully as you are able
   • If the person admits she did wrong and shows signs of a sincere intention to change her behavior, forgive her completely (not holding the sin against her or bringing it up again, perhaps)
   • If the person refuses to admit she did wrong and refuses to change her behavior, do NOT forgive her completely (hold her accountable for her sin and see to it that she suffers the consequences)
   • But be ready to forgive her completely if, after being faced with the consequences for her sin, she does admit she did wrong and shows a sincere desire to change
   That’s what I’m thinking. An example might be an intervention with a son or daughter who has drank all of the alcohol in the house and replaced the liquor with water, and takes your prescribed medication, and has stolen goods in his or her possession. Confront your child. If he admits he has a problem, and shows repentance by agreeing to get counseling from a priest or other trusted person, then don’t call the police. If he refuses to admit he has a problem and to get help, get the police in involved. The stolen goods, of course, should be returned and it should be up to the person who had the goods stolen to decide if, and how to forgive, or to press charges. Our own forgiving a person should not remove the necessity of the one forgiven to seek forgiveness from others, or face the consequences for the wrongs committed against others.
   
   Now, when I say forgive completely, I’m talking of forgiving with actions (by, in effect, pardoning the person for wrongs committed against me, personally). I’m not speaking of forgiving partially (by, in effect, ceasing to hold a grudge or to desire revenge). Not holding a grudge is a way that, perhaps we should forgive everyone, even if they refuse to repent. So I’m thinking forgiveness is a matter of degrees, or perhaps it is a matter of differences. For there are either degrees of forgiving, or different ways to forgive. One might forgive in thought, by ceasing to seethe with anger, whether or not the person repents. However, one should forgive in deed (or action), by pardoning the one forgiven, only if the person repents. For the one forgiven must repent to perhaps escape (or at least reduce) the consequences for his sin.
   
   This would mean forgiveness can be either a kind of conditional or unconditional love, depending on the extent to which the one is forgiven. This would also mean that mercy, too is a kind of conditional love. For mercy is being lenient, and one would have to meet the condition of repentance before the penalty of one’s sins should be reduced. To sum it up, I’m thinking this:
   • Forgiving in thought or word is unconditional love
   • Forgiving in deed or action is conditional love
   • Showing mercy is perhaps conditional love
   But what about you, O’Mama? What are you thinking?
   
   

 

[spockrates]

Spock what in the world are you talking about

Listen up! God’s Love is unconditional, there is NOTHING that we do or can do to earn his Love for us. ITS FREE, a free Gift.

Forgiveness is conditional simply BECAUSE we have to earn it, do something for it.

We do not have to do anything for GOD to love us. ITs Free! ITs a given!

God loves us no matter what. Even if we refuse to Love him back or accept him. But just because he loves us does not mean we do not have to ASK for forgiveness.

You got apples and oranges here buddy.

If we sin we must ask our Lord to forgive us. And he will. But we have to DO something which puts a CONDITION on it and that means ASK. You got i!!

With that said we don’t HAVE to ask God to Love us. He already DOES. But if you want forgiveness you have to ASK!! In the bible it is called REPENT, Confess!!

Fascinating!



I can hardly believe my exceptionally pointy ears! Are you really saying, Rinnie that forgiveness is NEVER an act of love? I must be misunderstanding you, for you appear to be saying that ALL of God’s love is unconditional. Logically I’d infer that anything that is *conditional *is *not *possibly God’s love. So forgiveness, if it is conditional, cannot possibly be love. In other words, it’s impossible to love someone by forgiving them, since one cannot be forgiven if one does not meet the conditions, but love never requires any conditions. I must not be hearing you correctly, am I?