Will you forgive me for asking?

[spockrates]

… dear spock ,

… it is really too big a question to expain what god = love means , it is way beyond our ability to ever understand or comprehend i’m afraid , we can know a few bits and pieces for sure , i think you can never stop learning but this is something beyond the human mind altogether , the best we can do is know it in our heart without words , the heart is the only real part of us that can understand this , at least as much as possible , the concept of love is beyond infinite as is god , i’ve delved into this q quite a lot and can’t repeat it all right now , it’d take forever , only god can ever know and undersand and appreciate god fully , we cannot , human words are hopelessly inadequate to explain god really , if you really want to know a lot that the church teaches about this you can read the holy father pbxvi’s encyclical entitled - god is love , here vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html it answers all your q’s on this dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

True, my friend! There are likely aspects of Love and the God of Love that are beyond your (and certainly beyond my) comprehension.



However, this should *not *keep us from *trying *to understand, should it? After all, isn’t this the Apostle Paul’s prayer for us?

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3:17-19)

Isn’t he saying that God wants us to grasp the meaning of His Love so that we might know and experience this love that (at first glance) appears to surpass understanding? Perhaps he is saying that, by prayer, God can help us understand what is impossible for us to understand without His Divine Wisdom?

 

[OscarsMama]

• Forgiving in thought or word is unconditional love
• Forgiving in deed or action is conditional love
• Showing mercy is perhaps conditional love

But what about you, O’Mama? What are you thinking?

I am thinking the same thing as you. Except about mercy being conditional love. Didn’t God show the ultimate mercy to us when Jesus died on the cross. He suffered to open the gates of Heaven. We didn’t suffer. He did. That is mercy. And that is unconditional. Because he did that without picking and choosing people that the gift would be for. Now, some people CHOOSE not to take advantage of the gift of Heaven. But it is offered to all. God has mercy on all of us for all time. And, clearly we don’t deserve it.

There are conditions to the GIFT of open gates. But the act of giving mercy was given with no conditions.

I think that we should strive to forgive like Jesus did on the cross. And I think that was in words and actions.

But that is so hard in this life. I struggle with it so much.

Now, the real clincher is (don’t know if others have felt like this before) when you THINK that you have forgiven somebody for something. You think that you have dealt with the feelings associated with the moment and think that you have put it aside. Then, somehow, it gets brought up again (whether on purpose or just in conversation) and BOOM!!! You are right back there… stuck. So, the conclusion is that the forgiveness that you THINK happened, in fact, didn’t.

So, what is the “fake” or “misleading” forgiveness???

 

[spockrates]

I am thinking the same thing as you. Except about mercy being conditional love. Didn’t God show the ultimate mercy to us when Jesus died on the cross. He suffered to open the gates of Heaven. We didn’t suffer. He did. That is mercy. And that is unconditional. Because he did that without picking and choosing people that the gift would be for. Now, some people CHOOSE not to take advantage of the gift of Heaven. But it is offered to all. God has mercy on all of us for all time. And, clearly we don’t deserve it.

There are conditions to the GIFT of open gates. But the act of giving mercy was given with no conditions.

Yes, I can see that, and so I’m unsure about Mercy. In fact, what you say reminds me of something else someone else told me: God forgives everyone, but some don’t accept that forgiveness. I’m thinking that, in both cases, it’s a matter of the potential compared to the actual. If I offer forgiveness to someone, but that someone refuses to receive it from me, then I have not actually forgiven the person, but I have potentially forgiven her. Wait a moment; let me restate that: I have actually forgiven her in my mind (by feeling peace rather than holding a grudge) but I have only potentially forgiven her in my actions (by offering a pardon that she has not yet accepted).

Now compare this with mercy: I can offer mercy to someone, but that someone might not accept it from me. In this case I might show mercy actually (by feeling pity rather than a desire for revenge) but I have not forgiven her actually (by being lenient with the person and not treating her as harshly as she deserves). This, I think, is not as close to the truth as it could be, for the one who rejects mercy cannot keep me from being merciful. For example, a man found guilty of murder in the first degree might advise the judge to give him the death penalty, but he could not keep the judge from giving him a lesser (and more merciful or lenient) punishment of life in prison. So it is not impossible, I think, to show mercy even to one who does not want it.

But is it improbable? Even though God could show mercy to those who don’t want it, does He? One statement of God’s comes to mind:

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

(Exodus 33:19)

The inference is this: God will also *not *show mercy to whom He will *not *show mercy, and God will *not *show compassion to whom He will *not *show compassion. In other words, it seems that God is saying that He chooses to actually show mercy and compassion to some, but chooses to actually not show mercy and compassion to others (though He likely potentially shows mercy and compassion to all).

That’s my best guess at this point in our journey toward the truth about Mercy and Forgiveness. What’s yours?

 

[spockrates]

… Now, the real clincher is (don’t know if others have felt like this before) when you THINK that you have forgiven somebody for something. You think that you have dealt with the feelings associated with the moment and think that you have put it aside. Then, somehow, it gets brought up again (whether on purpose or just in conversation) and BOOM!!! You are right back there… stuck. So, the conclusion is that the forgiveness that you THINK happened, in fact, didn’t.

So, what is the “fake” or “misleading” forgiveness???

I’d say that maybe it is not a fake forgiveness, but only another chance to forgive as you forgave before. Rather than forgive once and forget about it, you or I should be prepared to forgive again and again, even if the one forgiven only sinned once. We have to keep on unconditionally feeling forgiving by continuing to not hold a grudge. It would be the same with conditional forgiveness–the kind of which we considered earlier, where you or I pardon the person conditionally: We would have to keep on pardoning, as long as the person pardoned keeps on meeting the conditions to receive the pardon from us.

So no, if you find yourself needing to forgive a second, or third, or multiple times, it does not necessarily mean you have not forgiven the first time. It only means you need to continue forgiving as you did before, in my opinion.

 

[spockrates]

**
Does God show mercy and compassion to all? If He does not, then should we?
**

 

[rinnie]

Fascinating!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkwnc2GsDH1qzr075.jpg

I can hardly believe my exceptionally pointy ears! Are you really saying, Rinnie that forgiveness is NEVER an act of love? I must be misunderstanding you, for you appear to be saying that ALL of God’s love is unconditional. Logically I’d infer that anything that is *conditional *is *not *possibly God’s love. So forgiveness, if it is conditional, cannot possibly be love. In other words, it’s impossible to love someone by forgiving them, since one cannot be forgiven if one does not meet the conditions, but love never requires any conditions. I must not be hearing you correctly, am I?

We need to file down those ears a bit I said Gods loves has no conditions on it it is unconditional. Forgiveness does indeed have conditions.

Now Mr Spock with that said how do you come with the conclusion that because forgiveness does have conditions on it you cannot also love someone you forgive?

Actually we are supposed to LOVE everyone and forgive everyone. But with that said it has nothing to do with one being conditional and unconditional.

Simply like today. If someone Loves a friend and they are going to get a Job but must pass the drug test, If they fail the test they cannot get the Job. But if they pass they get the Job. The friend who go the other the interview cannot help it if the other fails now. And the love for the friend did not change.

It has nothing to do with Love, it has to do with a condition,

 

[spockrates]

We need to file down those ears a bit I said Gods loves has no conditions on it it is unconditional. Forgiveness does indeed have conditions.

Now Mr Spock with that said how do you come with the conclusion that because forgiveness does have conditions on it you cannot also love someone you forgive?

Actually we are supposed to LOVE everyone and forgive everyone. But with that said it has nothing to do with one being conditional and unconditional.

Simply like today. If someone Loves a friend and they are going to get a Job but must pass the drug test, If they fail the test they cannot get the Job. But if they pass they get the Job. The friend who go the other the interview cannot help it if the other fails now. And the love for the friend did not change.

It has nothing to do with Love, it has to do with a condition,

Pointy or no, I hope that I have ears to hear what God wants to say!



What I hear you saying is this: We love those we forgive, but forgiveness is not an act of love. Love might cause us to forgive, but forgiving is not loving. Are my pointy ears getting the point, now?

 

[spockrates]

In other words, Rinnie, we don’t love someone by forgiving them (for forgiveness is not love) but those we love we do forgive (for love causes forgiveness). Is this the truth you want my itching ears to hear?

 

[rinnie]

Pointy or no, I hope that I have ears to hear what God wants to say!



What I hear you saying is this: We love those we forgive, but forgiveness is not an act of love. Love might cause us to forgive, but forgiving is not loving. Are my pointy ears getting the point, now?

Nope you need to file them down a little more. Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of Love it can be. But it is not unconditional.

When someone is forgiven there are conditions on it. Even if we forgive we forgive because we want to be forgven.

If God said we did not have to forgive to be forgiven we might have a whole new ball game here Mr Spock, But God said if we want to be forgiven we must forgive. AH, a condition would you not agree.

But God Loves us no matter what.

 

[rinnie]

In other words, Rinnie, we don’t love someone by forgiving them (for forgiveness is not love) but those we love we do forgive (for love causes forgiveness). Is this the truth you want my itching ears to hear?

We are called to love everyone. But as we both know its hard to do that. But if we don’t honestly love someone sometimes we have to pray for them. Then usually God gives us the grace to love them.

But while we are in the process of receiving that Grace and working on truly loving them in our heart we have to forgive them. But ironically once you forgive Love has a way of creeping back in.

 

[spockrates]

Nope you need to file them down a little more. Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of Love it can be. But it is not unconditional.

When someone is forgiven there are conditions on it. Even if we forgive we forgive because we want to be forgven.

If God said we did not have to forgive to be forgiven we might have a whole new ball game here Mr Spock, But God said if we want to be forgiven we must forgive. AH, a condition would you not agree.

But God Loves us no matter what.

I think I see where I’m hearing you wrong. When you say,

Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of Love it can be.

I think that love is conditional. When you say,

But God Loves us no matter what.

I think that love is unconditional. The inference, then is that you are saying love is unconditional and conditional at the same time, or love is the opposite of what love is. Now to say love is not love is illogical and impossible and absurd. That is, it is all these IF you the word love means the same thing in the statement, “Love is not love.”

But that’s my misunderstanding (or lack of hearing!) you correctly. Let me tell you why I think I’m misunderstanding you: It can be true that love is not love, if we are comparing not one love, but two different kinds of (or ways to) love. For example, we might compare the feeling of compassion (which is love in thought) with the act of forgiving (which is love in deed). So the statement, “Compassion is not forgiving,” makes perfect sense, and is rational, possible and reasonable.

So let me try to tell you what I think I heard you say, and please tell me if I still have too much wax of confusion plugging them up!



I think you are saying this:

Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of Love; it can be [because loving in deed is conditional].

But God Loves us [in thought, though not in deed] no matter what [by feeling compassion for us].

In other words, what I hear you saying is that love in thought (or feelings) should always be unconditional, but love in deed (or action) is often conditional. We should always feel compassion for everyone, even if they don’t meet the conditions for us to forgive them. But we should only actually forgive them IF they meet the conditions required for us to forgive.

How’s my hearing, now?

 

[rinnie]

I think I see where I’m hearing you wrong. When you say,

Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of Love it can be.

I think that love is conditional. When you say,

But God Loves us no matter what.

I think that love is unconditional. The inference, then is that you are saying love is unconditional and conditional at the same time, or love is the opposite of what love is. Now to say love is not love is illogical and impossible and absurd. That is, it is all these IF you the word love means the same thing in the statement, “Love is not love.”

But that’s my misunderstanding (or lack of hearing!) you correctly. Let me tell you why I think I’m misunderstanding you: It can be true that love is not love, if we are comparing not one love, but two different kinds of (or ways to) love. For example, we might compare the feeling of compassion (which is love in thought) with the act of forgiving (which is love in deed). So the statement, “Compassion is not forgiving,” makes perfect sense, and is rational, possible and reasonable.

So let me try to tell you what I think I heard you say, and please tell me if I still have too much wax of confusion plugging them up!



I think you are saying this:

Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of Love; it can be [because loving in deed is conditional].

But God Loves us [in thought, though not in deed] no matter what [by feeling compassion for us].

In other words, what I hear you saying is that love in thought (or feelings) should always be unconditional, but love in deed (or action) is often conditional. We should always feel compassion for everyone, even if they don’t meet the conditions for us to forgive them. But we should only actually forgive them IF they meet the conditions required for us to forgive.

How’s my hearing, now?

Mr Spock sharpen up those ears one more time. The LOVE of Christ is unconditional. He loves us no matter what we do. Even when we hurt him, turn away from him, even do not accept him he loves us,

There is no conditions to this love.

Now forgiveness whole diffferent thing. WHy did he throw Adam and Eve out of paradise?

 

[spockrates]

Mr Spock sharpen up those ears one more time. The LOVE of Christ is unconditional. He loves us no matter what we do. Even when we hurt him, turn away from him, even do not accept him he loves us,

There is no conditions to this love.

Now forgiveness whole diffferent thing. WHy did he throw Adam and Eve out of paradise?

Rinnie:

It appears we are quite a pair–I’m deaf, and your blind!



Do you not see that this,

(a1) Just because forgiveness **has conditions **does not mean it cannot be a act of Love; it can be.

is the opposite of this?

(b1) There are** no conditions** to this love.

To claim that both are true is a logical contradiction; and a logical contradiction can never be true.

 

[spockrates]

That’s why I suggested that we instead say this,

(a2) Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of [loving in action]; it can be.

because it is not the opposite of this:

(b2) There are no conditions to this [loving in thought].

That is, loving in thought (or feeling compassion) is not the same as loving in action (by, for example, forgiving someone). So loving in thought can be unconditional even though loving in action is conditional. There is no logical contradiction there. Do you see what I mean, or do your eyes still need to be opened?

 

[rinnie]

That’s why I suggested that we instead say this,

(a2) Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of [loving in action]; it can be.

because it is not the opposite of this:

(b2) There are no conditions to this [loving in thought].

That is, loving in thought (or feeling compassion) is not the same as loving in action (by, for example, forgiving someone). So loving in thought can be unconditional even though loving in action is conditional. There is no logical contradiction there. Do you see what I mean, or do your eyes still need to be opened?

No I need a beer!!

 

[rinnie]

Back to my question.

Did God quit loving Adam and Eve when he threw them out of the Garden of Eden Yes or No?

Next question why did he throw them out then?

 

[rinnie]

That’s why I suggested that we instead say this,

(a2) Just because forgiveness has conditions does not mean it cannot be a act of [loving in action]; it can be.

because it is not the opposite of this:

(b2) There are no conditions to this [loving in thought].

That is, loving in thought (or feeling compassion) is not the same as loving in action (by, for example, forgiving someone). So loving in thought can be unconditional even though loving in action is conditional. There is no logical contradiction there. Do you see what I mean, or do your eyes still need to be opened?

Just because forgiveness CAN be a loving act has nothing to do with the love of God being UNCONDITIONAL!

Just because you can forgive someone and love them at the same time has nothing to do with Love be conditional. It still puts no condition on the love. It is not the love that has the conditon put on it, it is still the act of forgiveness. That is what holds the condition not love.

 

[spockrates]

Rinnie:

Does that look as true to you as it sounds to me? God feels love for us unconditionally, but shows love to us (by forgiving us, etc.) conditionally. So too, we should feel love for one another unconditionally, but show love to one another (by forgiving one another, etc.) conditionally. Feeling is unconditional. Doing is conditional.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie:

Does that look as true to you as it sounds to me? God feels love for us unconditionally, but shows love to us (by forgiving us, etc.) conditionally. So too, we should feel love for one another unconditionally, but show love to one another (by forgiving one another, etc.) conditionally. Feeling is unconditional. Doing is conditional.

In a sense yes. Why? I know you want to know why.

Here is why. I asked you numerous times why did God throw Adam and Eve out of paradise. You still haven’t answered my question.

Now why did he thrown them out, then you will have your answer.

I will give you a hint. Did God throw them out because he did not love them? That answer is NO.

Now before we move on you must answer my question why did he throw them out?

 

[spockrates]

In a sense yes. Why? I know you want to know why.

Here is why. I asked you numerous times why did God throw Adam and Eve out of paradise. You still haven’t answered my question.

Now why did he thrown them out, then you will have your answer.

I will give you a hint. Did God throw them out because he did not love them? That answer is NO.

Now before we move on you must answer my question why did he throw them out?

Forgive me for not answering your question.



He threw them out because they did not love Him more than their sin. The same holds true even for those who believe Adam and Eve is a symbolic fable: Our love of sin keeps us from loving Him. Not sure how that explains what love and forgiveness are, Rinnie. Please tell me; I’m all ears!