William Lane Craig Temporal God

[Aquinas11]

The problem as I see it is that you have made a claim that time has properties (or characteristics).

And you made a claim time doesn’t exist. Completely . . . unfounded.

 

[STT]

You sure about that? Let’s see:

Umm… you actually do say that the act of creation is temporal. Sorry, STT!

Sorry. I had to be more precise. By act being temporal I meant that it leads to something temporal.

Of course. Are you suggesting it is only part of some other entity?

No. It is just a separate entity.

Not so.

There is. Any act leads to a change. Time is needed for change. Time is an element of creation. Therefore, you need time for creating time which this is a regress.

How can an entity in eternity have a “beginning”?

Universe? Universe obviously has a beginning.

 

[STT]

Asked and answered repeatedly.

Yes or no?

 

[STT]

Irrelevant. Point is time has properties and thus had to have a cause for these properties yet STT asserts time is the uncaused cause

I am not saying that time is uncaused cause. I am saying that you need time for creation of time which this is a regress.

 

[whatistrue]

Yes or no?

Depends on the context. Again, this is nothing new, this same question has been asked by you and answered by me and by others ad nauseum. If you don’t remember then look back through the thread. If you don’t understand get specific about what is not clear. If all you do is repeat the same question without even acknowledging the previous answers than there is no point in continuing.

 

[STT]

Depends on the context. Again, this is nothing new, this same question has been asked by you and answered by me and by others ad nauseum. If you don’t remember then look back through the thread. If you don’t understand get specific about what is not clear. If all you do is repeat the same question without even acknowledging the previous answers than there is no point in continuing.

Now, that is so hard to answer yes or no, could you please give the the post number so I can look at your answer there.

 

[whatistrue]

With less than 200 posts in this thread, I don’t think that looking for the several which contain answers to your various questions that you still refuse to acknowledge is too much work for you to undertake.

And “depends on context” actually means that there isn’t a universal yes or a universal no answer, it really does mean that the answer depends on context. And understanding of context seems to be one of the main issues with this conversation.

 

[STT]

With less than 200 posts in this thread, I don’t think that looking for the several which contain answers to your various questions that you still refuse to acknowledge is too much work for you to undertake.

And “depends on context” actually means that there isn’t a universal yes or a universal no answer, it really does mean that the answer depends on context. And understanding of context seems to be one of the main issues with this conversation.

I asked a simple question. You might kindly answer my question and make life easier for me. Was there a change due to act of creation?

 

[whatistrue]

I asked a simple question

Yes, you asked a question over and over and got an answer each time until tiredness set in. If you don’t recall, can’t find, or are really not interested in the answer, that is not my problem.

 

[STT]

Yes, you asked a question over and over and got an answer each time until tiredness set in. If you don’t recall, can’t find, or are really not interested in the answer, that is not my problem.

I am done here.

 

[Gorgias]

Any act leads to a change. Time is needed for change. Time is an element of creation. Therefore, you need time for creating time which this is a regress.

What’s being suggested to you is that the creation of the universe is an eternal act, and therefore, no ‘beginning’ or ‘ending’ in eternity.

 

[STT]

What’s being suggested to you is that the creation of the universe is an eternal act, and therefore, no ‘beginning’ or ‘ending’ in eternity.

I am not talking about the act. I am talking about outcome, creation. Again: Any act leads to a change. Time is needed for change. Time is an element of creation. Therefore, you need time for creating time which this is a regress.

 

[Gorgias]

I am not talking about the act. I am talking about outcome, creation.

Fine. The universe, having been created by God in eternity, is eternal (when perceived by God). Internally, it has a temporal dimension.

Again: Any act leads to a change. Time is needed for change.

Not in eternity. This is the part that you keep missing.

Therefore, you need time for creating time which this is a regress.

Except that you don’t need a temporal dimension in order to create the universe, so this statement falls apart. (Unless, of course, you conflate ‘eternity’ with ‘temporality’, in which case you end up with the misunderstanding you’ve been asserting here.)

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

The problem as I see it is that you have made a claim that time has properties (or characteristics).

And you made a claim time doesn’t exist. Completely laughable.

You’re misquoting me to try and win a point. I said time doesn’t exist in itself. That is, it cannot and would not exist if nothing else did. If I am wrong then you can tell me what properties it has.

 

[STT]

Except that you don’t need a temporal dimension in order to create the universe, so this statement falls apart. (Unless, of course, you conflate ‘eternity’ with ‘temporality’, in which case you end up with the misunderstanding you’ve been asserting here.)

You need a temporal dimension in order to create universe, “nothing” to “the universe” is a change.

 

[AlNg]

And you made a claim time doesn’t exist. Completely laughable.

No I don’t think he said that. You are misquoting someone because your argument is weak. I think he might be referring to the fact that there is no way to know if there is time or not if there is nothing else in existence. So time does not exist on its own.

 

[Gorgias]

You need a temporal dimension in order to create universe

Please prove this assertion. All it is at this point is an opinion you’ve expressed.

 

[STT]

Please prove this assertion. All it is at this point is an opinion you’ve expressed.

Is the act of creation deal with a change?

 

[Gorgias]

Is the act of creation deal with a change?

In eternity? No, there is no changing state in eternity.

 

[STT]

In eternity? No, there is no changing state in eternity.

Yes, eternity does not change. That is why the universe does not exist inside eternity instead inside time. Why all these are true? Because something cannot exist and exist not at an eternal point. Also, any change require time. Time changes too. Therefore, you need time to allow change of time. Which this is a regress.