William Wake

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Guys, if this is already been discussed, feel free to merge.

I’ve starting a Church history project on my own, using illustrations and comic form to illuminate the Church history so that we can maybe figure out why we have this big divide between Protestants and Catholics. But also I believe that history, when researched extensively and properly, will show the Truth, whatever the bias.

So here are some questions regarding history. Who is William Wake? And his claim that there are suppressed Gospels since the Nicene Creed.

I had a look, and saw Gospels of Mary, infant Jesus (both of which distinctively lacking in the current Bible whichever translation). And his claim that for the first FOUR CENTURIES, these books were not forbidden and were part of the New Testament. Which makes me wonder, had these books not been forbidden, would the WHOLE Marian debate even be a stumbling block for Protestants to return to the Fullness of Truth in Catholicism? Are we effectively shooting ourselves in the foot by forbidding these books to begin with?

WHY are these books forbidden? (Specifically Gospel of Mary, Gospels of Infant Jesus - both of them)…
 
My guess is that they are Gnostic gospels, written as much as hundreds of years later. Such is the case with many other early writings.

Here’s a question: If these suppressed “gospels” are known and available, why are they not on even Protestant bibles? Why does no one use them? If they were “suppressed”, it is likely because they are fantasy.
 
Any schmuck with the means and the nerve can write a “gospel” and claim Jesus said this or Jesus did that… sorry, but it doesn’t make it remotely true.

Also, there is always some personal interpretation that we tend to throw in, even when we are trying to report things as accurately as possible.

You can google and read most of that garbage you’re so concerned about. It’s mostly clearly nonsense. If, however, you lack discernment, you should probably give it a miss. Otherwise who knows what crazy notion you might take off after. lol

(Pardon my harshness - I’m very pregnant right now and have little patience with … well … foolishness).
 
Are they forbidden or are they just not in the canon? Big difference.

For example, the Protoevangelium of James is considered a book suitable for devotional reading but not part of the canon. It is the book that contains the story of Mary being dedicated at the temple in her youth, if I am not mistaken.
 
I’m fair sure it’s because they aren’t divine. From what I recall I think the Gospel of Judas says that the Apostles stoned him to death, and that Christ didn’t rise again. Could be mis-informed though.
 
PiousTemplar said:
I’m fair sure it’s because they aren’t divine. From what I recall I think the Gospel of Judas says that the Apostles stoned him to death, and that Christ didn’t rise again. Could be mis-informed though.
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Well, that gospel ends with Jesus’ arrest, so there wouldn’t obviously be any overt reference to the Passion.

…] Their high priests murmured because [he] had gone into the guest room for his prayer. But some scribes were there watching carefully in order to arrest him during the prayer, for they were afraid of the people, since he was regarded by all as a prophet.
They approached Judas and said to him, “What are you doing here? You are Jesus’ disciple.”
Judas answered them as they wished. And he received some money and handed him over to them.

And the stoning is actually a vision that Judas had, which Jesus interprets for him:

Judas said, “Master, as you have listened to all of them, now also listen to me. For I have seen a great vision.”
When Jesus heard this, he laughed and said to him, “You thirteenth spirit, why do you try so hard? But speak up, and I shall bear with you.”
Judas said to him, “In the vision I saw myself as the twelve disciples were stoning me and persecuting [me severely]. And I also came to the place where …] after you. I saw [a house …], and my eyes could not [comprehend] its size. Great people were surrounding it, and that house a roof of greenery, and in the middle of the house was [a crowd—two lines missing—], saying, ‘Master, take me in along with these people.’”
[Jesus] answered and said, “Judas, your star has led you astray.” He continued, “No
person of mortal birth is worthy to enter the house you have seen, for that place is reserved for the holy. Neither the sun nor the moon will rule there, nor the day, but the holy will abide there always, in the eternal realm with the holy angels. Look, I have xplained to you the mysteries of the kingdom and I have taught you about the error f the stars; and …] send it …] on the twelve aeons.”

Judas said, “Master, could it be that my seed is under the control of the rulers?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Come, that I —two lines missing—], but that you ill grieve much when you see the kingdom and all its generation.”
When he heard this, Judas said to him, “What good is it that I have received it? For you have set me apart for that generation.”
Jesus answered and said, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by the other generations—and you will come to rule over them. In the last days they will
curse your ascent to the holy [generation].”
 
Yea I just read most of it. There are some whacked out stories in there. Jesus turning Mule into a human son so the family can have one etc…

Cheers guys. Sorry if this seems like spam lol. 😛 I’m exploring the Catholic faith, still going through the Catechism and the King James Bible for cross referencing.

Just a quickie, by divinely inspired you guys do mean that the ‘stories’ or verses within each book has to be ‘correct’ and speaks the truth right? Not just “God says so” because anybody can claim Simon says… 🙂
 
ChillyGuess said:
Guys, if this is already been discussed, feel free to merge.

I’ve starting a Church history project on my own, using illustrations and comic form to illuminate the Church history so that we can maybe figure out why we have this big divide between Protestants and Catholics. But also I believe that history, when researched extensively and properly, will show the Truth, whatever the bias.

So here are some questions regarding history. Who is William Wake? And his claim that there are suppressed Gospels since the Nicene Creed.

I had a look, and saw Gospels of Mary, infant Jesus (both of which distinctively lacking in the current Bible whichever translation). And his claim that for the first FOUR CENTURIES, these books were not forbidden and were part of the New Testament. Which makes me wonder, had these books not been forbidden, would the WHOLE Marian debate even be a stumbling block for Protestants to return to the Fullness of Truth in Catholicism? Are we effectively shooting ourselves in the foot by forbidding these books to begin with?

WHY are these books forbidden? (Specifically Gospel of Mary, Gospels of Infant Jesus - both of them)…
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One quick thing the gospel of Mary is about magdeleen not the BVM. Also it is not correct to say they were ever part of the New Testement as there really was not a New Testement till the conciles in the the 3 and 4 hundereds decided to gather all the writting in curculation and decide what was and what was not inspired. Many things that were “gospels” were excluded as they contained things that were not held in the Tradition of the Faith. others were hold to be good for reading but not nessicarily inspired by the Holy Spirit>
 
ChillyGuess said:
Yea I just read most of it. There are some whacked out stories in there. Jesus turning Mule into a human son so the family can have one etc…

Cheers guys. Sorry if this seems like spam lol. 😛 I’m exploring the Catholic faith, still going through the Catechism and the King James Bible for cross referencing.

Just a quickie, by divinely inspired you guys do mean that the ‘stories’ or verses within each book has to be ‘correct’ and speaks the truth right? Not just “God says so” because anybody can claim Simon says… 🙂
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Look to the Catechism for the optimal explanation.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm
II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

The use of the word “correct” is not appropriate. “Correct” is too specific to specific people in times and places. The reality and grounding of Divine inspiration in Sacred Scripture is one of “truth”. The Bible is neither a science manual nor is it a history book per se. But it does convey in pure form the truths we need to live fully the lives God wants us to lead (including the need for sacred Tradition in our lives). That’s not to say the stories aren’t true or that the accounts didn’t happen, but that they were not written “prove” anything on any kind of small intellectual level. Humankind is so much more than those paltry things; the Bible is for our full beings: body, mind, spirit and strength. It gives us just what we need when we need it. No science or history book could ever do that in all of time and space.

Does that make sense?
 
I’d eventually get to that part of the Catechism. 🙂 Cheers for pointing out though.
 
ChillyGuess said:
I’d eventually get to that part of the Catechism. 🙂 Cheers for pointing out though.
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Wow. You’re reading straight through the CCC? That takes determination. I prefer to pick parts that interest me and kind of skip around.

Gotta love the google search when I’m wondering about something specific. I think I searched something like “Catechism of the Catholic Church scripture inspire” … or something like that. 🙂
 
ChillyGuess said:
Guys, if this is already been discussed, feel free to merge.

I’ve starting a Church history project on my own, using illustrations and comic form to illuminate the Church history so that we can maybe figure out why we have this big divide between Protestants and Catholics. But also I believe that history, when researched extensively and properly, will show the Truth, whatever the bias.

So here are some questions regarding history. Who is William Wake? And his claim that there are suppressed Gospels since the Nicene Creed.

I had a look, and saw Gospels of Mary, infant Jesus (both of which distinctively lacking in the current Bible whichever translation). And his claim that for the first FOUR CENTURIES, these books were not forbidden and were part of the New Testament. Which makes me wonder, had these books not been forbidden, would the WHOLE Marian debate even be a stumbling block for Protestants to return to the Fullness of Truth in Catholicism? Are we effectively shooting ourselves in the foot by forbidding these books to begin with?

WHY are these books forbidden? (Specifically Gospel of Mary, Gospels of Infant Jesus - both of them)…
Click to expand...
ntcanon.org/table.shtml
 
InspiritCarol said:
Wow. You’re reading straight through the CCC? That takes determination. I prefer to pick parts that interest me and kind of skip around.
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Mm. Yes. I have this thirst for knowledge at the moment since getting to know Catholicism. I’m not Catholic yet, but I would have thought reading the Catechism and the Bible is a must for any RCIA, or anybody looking to get initiated into the Catholic faith?
 
ChillyGuess said:
Mm. Yes. I have this thirst for knowledge at the moment since getting to know Catholicism. I’m not Catholic yet, but I would have thought reading the Catechism and the Bible is a must for any RCIA, or anybody looking to get initiated into the Catholic faith?
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It is not required in an absolute sense, but is extremely helpful in understanding the reasons for Catholic beliefs. Another very good reference is the publication entitled Catholicism for Dummies. It is an easy read which offers an excellent overview of the Catholic faith. IMO, it should be distributed in every RCIA program. I learn something about the faith each time I read it.
 
Carol: That’s cool. 🙂

Yep will definitely check out that Dummies book then. I find myself buying so many books lately… lol. 🙂 All Catholic. Anyways, cheers guys for clearing the books up. However much I wished there was an actual divinely inspired Gospel of Mary, so we can put that ‘splitting’ issue to rest with Protestants. Luther himself said Mary is sinless. So why are we being crucified for what’s worse, idol worship… sheesh.
 
ChillyGuess said:
… However much I wished there was an actual divinely inspired Gospel of Mary, so we can put that ‘splitting’ issue to rest with Protestants. Luther himself said Mary is sinless. So why are we being crucified for what’s worse, idol worship… sheesh.
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For me, the real “Gospel of Mary” is found in John.

Mary understood better than anyone what was truly important about Jesus’ ministry, which is why all that stuff we find in the synoptics is culled out. She knows it’s not about her, nor does she want it to be. Why is the miracle at Cana only in his book? It is our understanding that she spent the rest of her days on Earth with John. It is really an echo of her voice that I hear in his Gospel.

No. Mary is just an excuse for division between us. The real problem is that people want to be their own god. Humans want to make god in their image and use him like a vending machine. If he doesn’t act appropriately within those confines then we simply deny him and start from scratch.
 
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