Williamson removed from Argentine seminary

[malphono]

All the usual polemic aside (and I loved ByzCath’s jpg … very a propos), I have to applaud the SSPX removing the problem bishop from his position. Hopefully that action will have a positive effect in the re-integration of the SSPX. HE Bp Fellay appears to be sincere, and that is good news indeed.

Now, before anybody jumps down my throat for "not being “repspectful” to a bishop, what say if the shoe was on the other foot? In other words, how about if this were a bishop who was so left wing as to make Karl Marx look conservative? Someone who, e.g., denied that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was persecuted under Soviet Union? Or who denied that the Tianamen Square incident ever actually took place? Or denied that the Soviet invasion of Budapest in 1956 was real? Would those revisionist historical opinions make anyone want to “respect” the one who held them? I doubt it. More likely he’d be eligible to be burned at the stake for denying the horrors of Communism. Why? Because we know that the events and the human suffering involved was real.

I’ve had the misfortune to have known bishops who subscribe to unusual left wing revisionist theories, and the word “respect” never came into my mind. Of course it didn’t help that along with the strange politics, they inevitably also said the like of “the spirit of Vatican II never went far enough” etc, and refused to wear an episcopal ring, and insisted on using crystal “chalices” along with the Wonder Bread (not joking there), etc etc.

All I’m saying here is that if a bishop is a lemon, he’s a lemon. Doesn’t much matter if he’s on the right or the left: he’s still a lemon. Just because he claims to be “traditional” theologically does not make him fit to serve in any capacity. In olden times, if such people were not actually heretics, but publicly proclaimed positions that were contrary to those of the Church as a whole, they would have been exiled to remote monasteries to repent. Not a bad idea in this case.

 

[cathguy]

that’s nice.

You have been vociferous in equating his erroneous views of history with the capacity of being a Bishop. You’ve exhibited no knowledge of the Bishop as a Bishop, or his capacity as a faithful Traditional Catholic or Teacher. You’ve exhibited NOTHING but hatred for the Bishop, and have fallen for the manipulations of the media and those liberal modernists whom you emulate on these pages.

Detest, yes!, the Bishop’s statements. Condemn them as lunacy if you wish. I know he’s dead wrong. About history. But you judge matters you have no capacity to judge.

is this your official opinion as a prince of the Church, or are you just exercising your ego?

Actually to allow the liberal modernist false ecumenism which you and and yours and the media and the world espouse to undermine the whole thing would be terrible.

you are creating a scapegoat to be given up for sacrifice to satisfy the world’s blood lust. And it won’t satisfy anything. You and yours and the world will hate the SSPX as long as they uphold and insist upon the Teachings of Our Lord. Because His Teachings are hard.

That was good for a laugh! Thank you!!!

I believe everything the Church teaches.

And yes, I conclude, from his actions, that Msgr. Williamson in an anti-semite, just as you conclude that I am a liberal modernist…

The difference is that I am right in my conclusion, and you are wrong.

Hypocrisy is not a virtue.

 

[cathguy]

On a more serious note…

Who thinks that this is a time of purification in the Church?

There are those in the SSPX who equate belief in a jewish-masonic conspiracy with the Catholic faith. They quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and go around acting as if the Jews were the enemies of civilization.

It is worth speculating at this point, given their anger, whether or not they will return to the fold of the Church of Rome, and full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

These people honestly believe the Bishop (Williamson) is a hero, and that those who attack him are evil. This is stunning. It is also frightening.

 

[cathguy]

I
I would agree that if Williamson is regularized, it would be wrong for me to hold sit-ins outside of his cathedral and protest, but there isn’t much detraction going on here, just legitimate debate about his fitness to be a bishop. As long as we recognize we have no authority in regard to that topic, I don’t see why we can’t debate it.

Great point.

Look, it is quite possible that Williamson may be made a Bishop in the Church. He is older, and there are titular sees available. It is also possible that he will be made a fully functioning Bishop.

If that were to occur, I wouldn’t hold a sit in either. That would not be Catholic.

HOWEVER, outside of faith and morals I would be free to criticize the Bishop. If he went around saying the Holocaust didn’t occur and the Jews should have no right to practice their faith, I would have no problem writing letters to Rome asking for clarification.

Yet, the Vicar of Christ, the Pope, has made clear that Msgr. Williamson will NOT be made a functioning Bishop (does this include a see that is titular only??) unless he recants his position, so I don’t think I have to worry about it.

And, I would also point out, that the SSPX faithful have been quite vocal criticizing NO Bishops, and even the Popes. Therefore, I find it more than a little disingenuous that they are yelling and screaming now that it is one of THEIR Bishops that has given scandal and is being called on the carpet for it.

 

[I_Believe]

On a more serious note…

Who thinks that this is a time of purification in the Church?

There are those in the SSPX who equate belief in a jewish-masonic conspiracy with the Catholic faith. They quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and go around acting as if the Jews were the enemies of civilization.

It is worth speculating at this point, given their anger, whether or not they will return to the fold of the Church of Rome, and full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

These people honestly believe the Bishop (Williamson) is a hero, and that those who attack him are evil. This is stunning. It is also frightening.

Get your head out of the sand. The SSPX does not hate Jews. Have you read the statement released by Bishop Fellay ?

Have you read The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita ?

   The Pope, whoever he is, will never come to the secret societies; it is up to the secret societies to take the first step toward the Church, with the aim of conquering both of them.

   The task that we are going to undertake is not the work of a day, or of a month, or of a year; it may last several years, perhaps a century; but in our ranks the soldier dies and the struggle goes on.

   We do not intend to win the Popes to our cause, to make them neophytes of our principles, propagators of our ideas. That would be a ridiculous dream; and if events turn out in some way, if Cardinals or prelates, for example, of their own free will or by surprise, should enter into a part of our secrets, this is not at all an incentive for desiring their elevation to the See of Peter. That elevation would ruin us. Ambition alone would have led them to apostasy, the requirements of power would force them to sacrifice us. What we must ask for, what we should look for and wait for, as the Jews wait for the Messiah, is a Pope according to our needs ...

   With that we shall march more securely towards the assault on the Church than with the pamphlets of our brethren in France and even the gold of England. Do you want to know the reason for this? It is that with this, in order to shatter the high rock on which God has built His Church, we no longer need Hannibalian vinegar, or need gunpowder, or even need our arms. We have the little finger of the successor of Peter engaged in the ploy, and this little finger is as good, for this crusade, as all the Urban II’s and all the Saint Bernards in Christendom.

   We have no doubt that we will arrive at this supreme end of our efforts. But when? But how? The unknown is not yet revealed. Nevertheless, as nothing should turn us aside from the plan drawn up, and on the contrary everything should tend to this, as if as early as tomorrow success were going to crown the work that is barely sketched, we wish, in this instruction, which will remain secret for the mere initiates, to give the officials in charge of the supreme Vente some advice that they should instill in all the brethren, in the form of instruction or of a memorandum ...

   Now then, to assure ourselves a Pope of the required dimensions, it is a question first of shaping him ... for this Pope, a generation worthy of the reign we are dreaming of. Leave old people and those of a mature age aside; go to the youth, and if it is possible, even to the children ... You will contrive for yourselves, at little cost, a reputation as good Catholics and pure patriots.

   This reputation will put access to our doctrines into the midst of the young clergy, as well as deeply into the monasteries. In a few years, by the force of things, this young clergy will have overrun all the functions; they will form the sovereign’s council, they will be called to choose a Pontiff who should reign. And this Pontiff, like most of his contemporaries, will be necessarily more or less imbued with the Italian and humanitarian principles that we are going to begin to put into circulation. It is a small grain of black mustard that we are entrusting to the ground; but the sunshine of justice will develop it up to the highest power, and you will see one day what a rich harvest this small seed will produce.

   In the path that we are laying out for our brethren, there are found great obstacles to conquer, difficulties of more than one kind to master. They will triumph over them by experience and by clearsightedness; but the goal is so splendid that it is important to put all the sails to the wind in order to reach it. You want to revolutionize Italy, look for the Pope whose portrait we have just drawn. You wish to establish the reign of the chosen ones on the throne of the prostitute of Babylon, let the Clergy march under your standard, always believing that they are marching under the banner of the apostolic keys. You intend to make the last vestige of tyrants and the oppressors disappear; lay your snares like Simon Bar-Jona; lay them in the sacristies, the seminaries, and the monasteries rather than at the bottom of the sea: and if you do not hurry, we promise you a catch more miraculous than his. The fisher of fish became the fisher of men; you will bring friends around the apostolic Chair. You will have preached a revolution in tiara and in cope, marching with the cross and the banner, a revolution that will need to be only a little bit urged on to set fire to the four corners of the world.

devilsfinalbattle.com/ch5.htm

This disturbing document led to Blessed Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors.

 

[cathguy]

Get your head out of the sand. The SSPX does not hate Jews. Have you read the statement released by Bishop Fellay ?

Have you read The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita ?

This disturbing document led to Blessed Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors.

I agree wholeheartedly about the dangers of Freemasonry.

The best book on the topic is by a tradtionalist Catholic loyal to the Pope: John Salza. (Probably my favorite apologist)

He published books called “Why Catholics Cannot be Masons” and “Masonry Unmasked” published by OSV (Our Sunday Visitor… the “N.O.” Bishops publisher…)

In any event, I have read Masonry Unmasked and it is excellent.

Also, I do not say the SSPX hates Jews. I say that Williamson does. There will be those who will be unable to reunite themselves with Rome because they love Williamson’s stand on the Jews. I agree that Freemasonry is evil. I will never agree that Judaism is evil. I do not believe in a jewish-masonic conspiracy for world domination. I think those viewpoints are crazy.

Even Masonry is not the enemy these days that it once was. In the United States its membership as dropped 71% in the last 50 years (see Putnam’s Bowling Alone). The enemies today are rampant secularism, homosexualism, the contraceptive mentality, and abortion.

Some in the SSPX are so busy fighting the battles of the 18th and 19th century they are no longer on the front lines against the enemies TRULY out to destroy the Church today.

 

[malphono]

There are those in the SSPX who equate belief in a jewish-masonic conspiracy with the Catholic faith. They quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and go around acting as if the Jews were the enemies of civilization. …

These people honestly believe the Bishop (Williamson) is a hero, and that those who attack him are evil. This is stunning. It is also frightening.

I agree but I have to note something:

Unfortunately, that jewish-masonic conspiracy tripe is not unique to some of those in the SSPX and their followers. It’s been a rallying cry for the ultra right-wing for ages (well pre-conciliar) and it persists. In other words, it was around long before the SSPX ever came into existence. Long before Vatican II. Long before WWII. Long before Pius XI (of blessed memory) …

Considering its long history, I don’t know that I’d say it was “stunning,” but no question that it’s frightening. Seems to be rather like herpes: it’s persistent and recurs and apparently there’s no cure.

 

[nsper7]

1. I want to make it clear that I have no nothing personally against SSPX or Bishop Williamson. If SSPX at some point returns to full canonical status, then I would have no qualms about attending an SSPX-led Mass or receiving any Sacrament (i.e. Reconciliation) from an SSPX Priest or Bishop.
2. I am not questioning Bishop Williamson’s qualifications, skill or call as a Bishop; however, it makes sense that if you are going to head up a Seminary (a house of academia among other things), then you should seek to bring an academic view to issues. The historical evidence against Holocaust denial/revisionism is extremely strong. There are numerous accounts of gas chamber use. If you want to lead an academic operation (i.e. a Seminary), then you sort of need to remain within proper bounds. It would be just as bad academically as someone who believes in a flat earth or a geocentric universe being put in charge of an academic Seminary. I admit I have personal feelings on the matter (I had relatives die in the Holocaust), but in the end, whether Bishop Williamson is a good Bishop or not is not for me to judge. Heck, I don’t even know the guy.

 

[I_Believe]

The enemies today are rampant secularism, homosexualism, the contraceptive mentality, and abortion.

Some in the SSPX are so busy fighting the battles of the 18th and 19th century they are no longer on the front lines against the enemies TRULY out to destroy the Church today.

I’m not trying to discredit you or argue. But if you believe the SSPX clergy don’t preach against those “enemies today”, you are simply wrong. They do preach against these things from the pulpit, and on a regular basis.

I’m not sure if he still does, but the local SSPX priest used to go to Cincy to pray the Rosary with others in front of an abortion clinic. He has been spat on, cursed, and if memory serves me right, even knocked to the ground.

The unjust stigma and fueling of myths concerning the Society is sickening. It is born of ignorance.

Catholics in full communion with Holy Mother Church embrace Her Doctrine and Dogmas, and do not compromise for the sake of politcal correctness.

 

[Lujack]

Maurin, I had a long response to your last post all typed up, and my computer blinked out. I don’t feel like retyping the whole thing (it was pretty disheartening to lose the entire post), so I’m going to withdraw for now. Thank you for the enjoyable discussion, however.

 

[jimmy]

My respect for the SSPX, and for its leadership (sans Msgr. Williamson), has been growing since this scandal broke.

I have been vociferous in my criticism of Williamson’s lunatic views. That said, I think it is clear the other leaders in the SSPX are well measured, faithfully Catholic, and committed to Catholic Tradition.

Is it Catholic Tradition that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust? Does it make a person any more of a faithful Catholic to acnkowledge this? From my understanding of Church Tradition it is not necessary to believe there were 6 million who died in the holocaust.

Now that Williamson has been removed as rector to the seminary, there ought to be absolutely NO reason why the SSPX is not given some regular canonical status in the Church.

Whether Williamson is there or not should make no difference because there is nothing schismatic or heretical or sinful about what he said.

Let us pray doubly hard for the Pope, and for Bp. Fellay, that they may have fortitude at this most difficult time. We have come so far. To allow Msgr. Williamson to undermine the whole thing would be terrible.

It is not Bp. Williamson who was undermining the relationship, it is the media. And to tell the truth, the media can kiss my a**.

 

[I_Believe]

It is not Bp. Williamson who was undermining the relationship, it is the media. And to tell the truth, the media can kiss my a**.

Hear Hear !

“The media have no idea what a real Catholic is. If they did, they would scream for his martyrdom, they would scream for his skin.”
Bishop Williamson in 2005

Oh, the irony. I guess the Bishop was wrong. It seems the media does recognize a real Catholic when they see one.

 

[maurin]

That was good for a laugh! Thank you!!!

I believe everything the Church teaches.

And yes, I conclude, from his actions, that Msgr. Williamson in an anti-semite, just as you conclude that I am a liberal modernist…

The difference is that I am right in my conclusion, and you are wrong.

Hypocrisy is not a virtue.

what is laughable is your utter avoidance of the issues presented to you. Instead you “laugh.”

but as they say, the best defense is a good offense. you don’t get tired of being offensive, do you?

 

[maurin]

Some in the SSPX are so busy fighting the battles of the 18th and 19th century they are no longer on the front lines against the enemies TRULY out to destroy the Church today.

some liberals are so ignorant and short sighted that they believe that the battles of the 18th and 19th centuries have nothing to do with the battles and crises of today. A very protestant notion of the faith, by the way–history is meaningless. Monsieur Des Cartes, meet your child–his name is abortion.

 

[I_Believe]

some liberals are so ignorant and short sighted that they believe that the battles of the 18th and 19th centuries have nothing to do with the battles and crises of today. A very protestant notion of the faith, by the way–history is meaningless. Monsieur Des Cartes, meet your child–his name is abortion.

Touche !
:knight2:

 

[sonofourlady]

some liberals are so ignorant and short sighted that they believe that the battles of the 18th and 19th centuries have nothing to do with the battles and crises of today. A very protestant notion of the faith, by the way–history is meaningless. Monsieur Des Cartes, meet your child–his name is abortion.

Why is there no effort being made on the part of Bishop Williamson’s supporters to offer credible proof that his opinions on the Holocaust are legitimate?

The best I hear is that its a secular opinion, if you oppose him, you are a liberal heretic, it has no matter in faith or morals.

I wonder also if there are any canonized saints or soon to be ones that were martyred at the hands of the Nazi’s in the gas chambers? I know that St. Maximilian Kolbe was starved to death but how did St. Edith Stein die?

 

[Rogerteder]

QUESTION: As long as you not doing it because you hate Jews what is the problem in saying you don’t find the historical evidence compelling that there were 6 million Jews killed during world war II?

 

[cathguy]

I’m not trying to discredit you or argue. But if you believe the SSPX clergy don’t preach against those “enemies today”, you are simply wrong. They do preach against these things from the pulpit, and on a regular basis.

I’m not sure if he still does, but the local SSPX priest used to go to Cincy to pray the Rosary with others in front of an abortion clinic. He has been spat on, cursed, and if memory serves me right, even knocked to the ground.

The unjust stigma and fueling of myths concerning the Society is sickening. It is born of ignorance.

Catholics in full communion with Holy Mother Church embrace Her Doctrine and Dogmas, and do not compromise for the sake of politcal correctness.

Did you miss the “some in” in my original post or are you ignoring it purposively?

 

[malphono]

QUESTION: As long as you not doing it because you hate Jews what is the problem in saying you don’t find the historical evidence compelling that there were 6 million Jews killed during world war II?

Never mind if one likes the Armenians or not, is there enough “historical evidence” to substantiate the massacre of Armenian (Christians, by the way) by the Ottomans?

Never mind what one might think of dissidents in Soviet Union. Is there enough “historical evidence” to substantiate that the Soviet Union ran gulags?

Never mind what one thinks of Chinese students. Is there enough “historical evidence” to substantiate the ruthless repression of free expression at Tianemen Square?

Never mind what one thinks of Tutsi. Is there enough “historical evidence” to substantiate the wanton killings in Rwanda?

Never mind what one thinks of black Sudanese. Is there enough “historical evidence” that the janjawid have run amok and killed and starved thousands upon thousands of innocent people (a good many of whom are Christian)?

 

[cathguy]

what is laughable is your utter avoidance of the issues presented to you. Instead you “laugh.”

but as they say, the best defense is a good offense. you don’t get tired of being offensive, do you?

I went through your entire post again, and here we have more of your stock in trade. There isn’t a SINGLE question to me posed by your post. Not one question mark at all.

Of course, you yell attacks like “liberal” and “modernist” very effectively.

And I am offensive?

Ask a question, and I will answer.

Allow me to ask you some DIRECT questions: (my guess… you will again refuse to answer them)

1. Wasn’t it obvious from that context of my post that I wasn’t arguing that the errors of the 18th and 19th century weren’t still errors?
2. Wasn’t it obvious that I was just pointing out that you are missing the real problems of today because you are focused on your own flawed understanding of Catholic tradition?
3. You keep saying that I am doing something wrong calling the anti-semitic Msgr. Williamson an anti-semite.

Can you explain logically how a man who is NOT an anti-semite would do the following therefore?

1. Promote the book “The Hitler We Loved and Why”
2. Promote the forgery known as “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”
3. Promote the notion that “not a single Jew died in the gas chambers… not one.” (Bp. Williamson)
4. Promote the idea that the Jews have a conspiracy to rule the world and destroy the Church.

I am open to hearing you square these 4 FACTS with the notion that Williamson is not an anti-semite. I look forward to hearing your “argument.”