Wine allowed in Islam?

[AgnosTheist]

Death by exams… I made myself stay away to study.

I hope you did well.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I hope you did well.

Well I have two more exams… but I got a 40% on the first one so things aren’t looking so good right now.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Well I have two more exams… but I got a 40% on the first one so things aren’t looking so good right now.

what are you taking?

 

[Sister_Amy]

what are you taking?

That was microelectronics. The other two are power systems and US-ME relations.

Major is engineering.

 

[AgnosTheist]

That was microelectronics. The other two are power systems and US-ME relations.

WOW. Thats heavy.

 

[Angelos]

Wine is not allowed in Islam–but it was only progressively forbidden. This is one rule that was gradually implemented, because (according to 'Aisha) if it had been forbidden right at once, then the people wouldn’t have been able to accept it, and they would have left Islam.

That’s kind of like tuning a piano–if it hasn’t been tuned in a long time, you have to keep tuning it every couple days, then weeks, then months, and establish a regular pattern. But if you do it just once, it will go back to where it was.

Nice analogy, but not applicable to the case in the Koran. First, it is not possible to assert that the wine is progressively forbidden in the Koran because the time intervening between those three chapters was not long.

Second, the verse designating the wine as “harmful” in Surah 2 does not entail any degree of prohibition. Actually, people are said to have asked Mohammad about strong drinks, and he is said to have given them a mild response. This response is nothing more than some advice, not a rule or precept.

Third, the verse in Surah 4 does not prohibit the consumption of alcohol at all. It only forbids men from praying when they are drunk, showing tolerance to the state of intoxication! The Koran surprisingly does not prohibit intoxication itself, but likens it to being ritually unclean. In the Koran one verse (Surah 4:43) allowing people to drink wine to the point of intoxication is followed a short time later by another verse (Surah 5:90) declaring wine satan’s handiwork, which but points out a contradiction. None of the three verses prior to the harsh commandment in Surah 5 asks or commands people to lessen the frequency of alcohol consumption or aims to limit the amount of alcohol taken at a time so as to avoid intoxication. Thus, the Islamic theory of progressive prohibition does not work here.

So first alcohol was discouraged–people were told not to pray if they were drunk, and then eventually it was prohibited altogether.

This means Muslims were also discouraged from having sexual intercourse because they were asked in the same verse not to pray until they clean themselves?

This is a kind of ‘abrogation’ in the Qur’an, where a later ruling sort of supercedes the previous ones, but in fact all the verses still apply. If someone comes into Islam who drinks regularly and has a hard time giving it up, for example, maybe they could follow that procedure–first, not pray while they’re drunk, and eventually stop altogether. This is because radical change is difficult to maintain.

This leads me to another question: why does the Koran apply progressive prohibition for strong drinks only?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Nice analogy, but not applicable to the case in the Koran. First, it is not possible to assert that the wine is progressively forbidden in the Koran because the time intervening between those three chapters was not long.

Of course it is possible, because I got that statement from 'Aisha. But more importantly, how much time passed between those revelations? Do you even know? And how long is long enough?

–edited to add: I see by later remarks in your post that you are under the impression that the first verses revealed are those which occur first in the Qur’an, but the Qur’an was not compiled in order of revelation. It was the order of revelation by which alcohol was progressively forbidden, a statement backed up by the Companions and Jurists. –

Second, the verse designating the wine as “harmful” in Surah 2 does not entail any degree of prohibition. Actually, people are said to have asked Mohammad about strong drinks, and he is said to have given them a mild response. This response is nothing more than some advice, not a rule or precept.

Muhammad’s words, acts, and approvals are a source of islamic law. As I said, alcohol was progressively prohibited. This is an actual example of “abrogation.” Notice that the previous verses aren’t canceled–they still apply, but the permission was canceled.

Third, the verse in Surah 4 does not prohibit the consumption of alcohol at all. It only forbids men from praying when they are drunk, showing tolerance to the state of intoxication! The Koran surprisingly does not prohibit intoxication itself, but likens it to being ritually unclean. In the Koran one verse (Surah 4:43) allowing people to drink wine to the point of intoxication is followed a short time later by another verse (Surah 5:90) declaring wine satan’s handiwork, which but points out a contradiction. None of the three verses prior to the harsh commandment in Surah 5 asks or commands people to lessen the frequency of alcohol consumption or aims to limit the amount of alcohol taken at a time so as to avoid intoxication. Thus, the Islamic theory of progressive prohibition does not work here.

Oh… poor you. The Qur’an was not revealed from beginning to end, the order in the Qur’an today was NOT the same order of revelation. The prohibition was progressive–it gradually became more severe. And that is in the order of revelation–not in the order of reading the Qur’an.

This means Muslims were also discouraged from having sexual intercourse because they were asked in the same verse not to pray until they clean themselves?

They aren’t supposed to pray until the clean themselves. But they weren’t prohibited from intercourse. Alcohol was prohibited however.

This leads me to another question: why does the Koran apply progressive prohibition for strong drinks only?

I don’t understand.

 

[dolphinlove]

Thanks everyone for their replies.

 

[Angelos]

Of course it is possible, because I got that statement from 'Aisha. But more importantly, how much time passed between those revelations? Do you even know? And how long is long enough?

Not enough time to help the first Islamic generation get rid of their supposed addiction to alcohol.

–edited to add: I see by later remarks in your post that you are under the impression that the first verses revealed are those which occur first in the Qur’an, but the Qur’an was not compiled in order of revelation. It was the order of revelation by which alcohol was progressively forbidden, a statement backed up by the Companions and Jurists. –

So would you please put those verses about strong drinks in the correct order of revelation so that everyone can see the progressive prohibition?

Muhammad’s words, acts, and approvals are a source of islamic law. As I said, alcohol was progressively prohibited. This is an actual example of “abrogation.” Notice that the previous verses aren’t canceled–they still apply, but the permission was canceled.

Mohammad’s words do not prohibit alcohol in Surah 2; therefore, that verse cannot be presented as a part of the supposed gradual prohibition.

Oh… poor you. The Qur’an was not revealed from beginning to end, the order in the Qur’an today was NOT the same order of revelation. The prohibition was progressive–it gradually became more severe. And that is in the order of revelation–not in the order of reading the Qur’an.

This is impertinent to my arguments and questions. Besides, your alleged progressive prohibition is based on the same order of the verses as I have posted! Your reply to my post suggests that Surah 5 belonged to a later period than Surah 2 and 4. If it is not possible to know the exact order of those surahs, how can you talk of or prove progressive prohibiton?

They aren’t supposed to pray until the clean themselves. But they weren’t prohibited from intercourse. Alcohol was prohibited however.

Thanks for repeating my sentences and evading my question

I don’t understand.

Since “radical changes are difficult to maintain”, does the Koran prohibit any other bad habit or practice than alcohol gradually?

 

[inJESUS]

Since “radical changes are difficult to maintain”, does the Koran prohibit any other bad habit or practice than alcohol gradually?
3 or 4 ayas prohibiting alcohol otherwise men would be turned off Islam…1,2,3,4 women + what your right hand possesses is enough to get them back

 

[inJESUS]

Since “radical changes are difficult to maintain”, does the Koran prohibit any other bad habit or practice than alcohol gradually?
Allah is obliged- so to speak- to reveal many ayas to prohibit alcohol because people will be turned off is rather fishy…but i can still digest it…what i don’t get is the “progressive history” in the Quran…same passages with additional details…wouldn’t people understand history unless revealed many times each time adding a new detail?

 

[Angelos]

3 or 4 ayas prohibiting alcohol otherwise men would be turned off Islam…1,2,3,4 women + what your right hand possesses is enough to get them back

 

[Angelos]

Allah is obliged- so to speak- to reveal many ayas to prohibit alcohol because people will be turned off is rather fishy…but i can still digest it…what i don’t get is the “progressive history” in the Quran…same passages with additional details…wouldn’t people understand history unless revealed many times each time adding a new detail?

There is no such thing as “gradual revelation” or progressive history" in the Koran. It is just a myth invented by Muslim scholars to stave off the inconsistencies and deficiencies of the Koran (very much like the notion of abrogation).

The Islamic scripture contains several stories/narratives that are recounted with details only once. For instance, Surah 18 contains three long narratives that do not take place in any other Surah of the Koran! Besides, some major stories related to Abraham - the father of Islam according to the Koran - only occur in certain chapters just for once: Abraham’s demanding evidence from Allah for bodily resurrection is only in Surah 2! The narrative of Abraham’s testing by Allah only in Surah 37!

 

[inJESUS]

Angels, if i recall well, there are passages which are repeated in different suras, with slightly different details but i do not recall the ayas…some are related to Moses.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Not enough time to help the first Islamic generation get rid of their supposed addiction to alcohol.

Apparently it was enough time, since it worked. Despite your utterly subjective attempt to qualify it. The reason prohibition of alcohol works for Muslims is the strength of their faith in God.

So would you please put those verses about strong drinks in the correct order of revelation so that everyone can see the progressive prohibition?

From The Lawful and Prohibited in Islam, by Sh. Yusuf Al-Qaradawi: “To eradicate this pervasive evil from society, Allah subhanahu wa Ta’ala adopted a wise course of education and training prohibiting it in measured stages. First, He made it clear to them that the harm of drinking wine is greater than its benefit; next, He told them not to come to salat while intoxicated; and finally, He revealed the verse in Surah al-Maidah which prohibited it totally and decisively.”

So we can conclude, 2:219 (They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.")

Then 4:43, (O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,-)

And lastly, 5:90-91, (*O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. Satan’s plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? *)

Mohammad’s words do not prohibit alcohol in Surah 2; therefore, that verse cannot be presented as a part of the supposed gradual prohibition.

And where did you get your degree in studying the Qur’an? lol. The point of progressive prohibition is that at first it isn’t prohibited, but disliked, then disliked even more that it’s difficult to keep it up, and then prohibited altogether.

This is impertinent to my arguments and questions. Besides, your alleged progressive prohibition is based on the same order of the verses as I have posted!

Seems so! Doesn’t make your interpretation correct though.

Your reply to my post suggests that Surah 5 belonged to a later period than Surah 2 and 4. If it is not possible to know the exact order of those surahs, how can you talk of or prove progressive prohibiton?

First of all, the surahs weren’t revealed in entirety, but in pieces. Like a piece of surah 5, then a piece of surah 3, etc. Not all in order. That was my point. The reason I know the prohibition was progressive is because it has been described that way by one of the most authoritative companions of Muhammad, who witnessed it that way. Plus scholars who know way more than me, also explain it this way. Like Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, in the above quote.

Since “radical changes are difficult to maintain”, does the Koran prohibit any other bad habit or practice than alcohol gradually?

Yes.

 

[morning_star777]

if wine is not allowed in the world cuz its the handiwork of satan then why the heavens is full of wine?so is heaven the place of satan?lol.and wat we can’t imagine?ya we can’t imagine heaven.but why 1 things is worst for the world and full of heaven?very contradictory!hmm

 

[Stephen0]

The chasm between Muhammad’s and Christ’s beliefs is pronounced. It seems that Allah through the Prophet condemns alcohol as a tool of Satan. Whereas, Christ being a good Jew lived within the context of using alcohol responsibly and it was not to be ostracized in its moderate use. Otherwise, Christ wouldn’t have worked his first official miracle at the wedding of Cana that produced enough superb wine to keep the party going without a hitch. At the passover dinner, we know that he drank alcoholic wine for the third cup of the meal was the one that we Catholics and Greek Orthodox brothers copy in our Eucharistic services. Further, I have read that in Europe the Jews must use an alcoholic drink if not wine for the third cup in the Passover meal. In fact, Christ promised to again drink this alcoholic wine in Paradise with the Apostles after their deaths.
Therefore in heaven, this will be an interesting experience. There will be faithful Muslims drinking a non-alcoholic version of wine and there will be Jesus sitting with his Apostles and disciples sipping the more potent variety. Do you think that the dedicated followers of Muhammad will be willing to drink the alcoholic wine if it is offered to them by Jesus or his followers?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Jesus and Muhammad lived at different times. I thought I should point that out, since the implications of that fact seem to be somewhat obscured to the present participants in this discussion.

 

[Angelos]

Apparently it was enough time, since it worked. Despite your utterly subjective attempt to qualify it. The reason prohibition of alcohol works for Muslims is the strength of their faith in God.

Contradictorily, it was the strength of those Muslims’ addiction to alcohol that supposedly made the so-called progressive prohibition crucial. Now you are subjectively attempting to ignore the fact that the Koran does not say anything good or bad about alcohol in the Mecca period. Apparently, the so-called progressive prohibition takes place in a rush.

From The Lawful and Prohibited in Islam, by Sh. Yusuf Al-Qaradawi: “To eradicate this pervasive evil from society, Allah subhanahu wa Ta’ala adopted a wise course of education and training prohibiting it in measured stages. First, He made it clear to them that the harm of drinking wine is greater than its benefit; next, He told them not to come to salat while intoxicated; and finally, He revealed the verse in Surah al-Maidah which prohibited it totally and decisively.”

So we can conclude, 2:219 (They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.")

Then 4:43, (O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,-)

And lastly, 5:90-91, (*O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. Satan’s plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? *)

Now your source is supporting my argument by giving the verses about alcohol in the same order as in my previous post. Let me repeat for you and everyone reading this thread: Surah 4:43 does NOT prohibit alcohol, but forbids Muslims from praying while drunk. Since this verse does not even prohibit intoxication itself, it can NOT be the part of progressive prohibition. Thus, we are left with two verses: 2:219 teaches people for the very first time in Islamic history that alcohol is more harmful despite being partly beneficial. Surah 5:90 declares alcohol satan’s handiwork and binds salvation to quitting its consumption. There is nothing aiming to lessen the amount of alcohol in these verses. We witness Allah, who in one verse allows intoxication and in the next condemns the wine itself. This is NOT consistent.

And where did you get your degree in studying the Qur’an? lol. The point of progressive prohibition is that at first it isn’t prohibited, but disliked, then disliked even more that it’s difficult to keep it up, and then prohibited altogether.

I studied the Koran in the same faculty as you and all those Muslim scholars. I hope you get what I actually mean. I cannot see how the Koran discourages Muslims from alcohol by allowing them to feel drunk and by considering intoxication as normal as ritual impurity after sexual affair???

Seems so! Doesn’t make your interpretation correct though.

My interpretation is based on the text of the Koran, not on purely subjective comments and wishful thinking of Muslim scholars.

First of all, the surahs weren’t revealed in entirety, but in pieces. Like a piece of surah 5, then a piece of surah 3, etc. Not all in order. That was my point. The reason I know the prohibition was progressive is because it has been described that way by one of the most authoritative companions of Muhammad, who witnessed it that way. Plus scholars who know way more than me, also explain it this way. Like Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, in the above quote.

I do not remember claiming that all those Surah were revealed in their entirety. What does this have to do with our current debate?

Yes.

Example?

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus and Muhammad lived at different times. I thought I should point that out, since the implications of that fact seem to be somewhat obscured to the present participants in this discussion.

correct. Up until Muhammad, Allah allowed alcohol. Was alcohol, before Muhammad, not the work of satan?