Yes, moderation is the key! Even eating can be bad when it becomes gluttony! Even sex can be bad when it’s done outside of marriage, so should we ban eating and sex so people won’t abuse them?
How do you know this? It doesn’t make sense for God to forbid something here on earth and then make it legal in heaven.
Yes.
i guess he wanted the verses.
Dear Amy,
Dear brother famdigy,
Really? You (and I) already quoted them. I just figured you knew what I was talking about.Dear Amy,
My question was by no means rhetorical. I need to see those verses, the simple answer “Yes” will not suffice to convince me.
You can refer back a few pages if you don’t believe me.You somehow cannot remember how I had rebutted your previous claim that wine was prohibited progressively in the Koran.Really? You (and I) already quoted them. I just figured you knew what I was talking about.
Must not have been a very good rebuttal.
What can I do about it if YOU have a twisted notion of progressive prohibition? I showed you through verses in the Koran that it is unthinkable to consider the prohibition of wine and gambling progressive in Islam.
You gave the order of the verses in the same way as I had given to prove you the opposite. Besides, I based my theory on the Koran alone, without resorting to Hadiths or scholars that are programmed to reiterate the traditional presumption about wine that is not backed up by the Islamic Scripture.
we know the evils of being drunk Rayaan. This is NOT what we are discussing and it was made clear in many posts so far but i will repeat it again : alcohol is not prohibited, being drunk is.
Again, we repeat :banghead:
Interestingly a tee-total devotee of a Christian group which forbids consumption of alcohol strongly argued that when Jesus performed the miracle of the wedding feast at Cana what He produced was ‘non’ alcoholic wine. They argued further that Christ would not have encouraged alcoholic annebriation therefore to suggest He converted water into alcholic wine was [to them] anaethema.
I can see your point but I am sorry I must disagree with you. I do not believe ‘the wine in the Mass’ represents Christ’s blood.
What can I do about it if YOU have a twisted notion of progressive prohibition? I showed you through verses in the Koran that it is unthinkable to consider the prohibition of wine and gambling progressive in Islam.
Here is another analogy: Suppose that I am a modern age prophet sent with a new revelation to prohibit coke. First my God says:
“O Angelos, they are asking thee concerning the coke. Tell them it has (some) utility and some harm, but the harm it gives is more than its benefit.”
Then He says:
"O believers! When you drink coke, do not speak to people until you fully digest your meal and stop burping and do not approach people until you stop farting after eating boiled beans.
Finally,
“Coke is the handiwork of satan. Never drink it if you want to have a healthy stomach”.
Who on earth would believe that these verses in this order would aim to prohibit the coke progressively. Please keep in mind that the second verse does not prohibit coke or even moderates its consumption. I think that makes perfect sense. That is an example of progressive prohibition. This is like weaning somebody off of something. Those for whom it is easy to give up will give it up at the beginning, because it has some harm in it. Those for whom it is slightly more difficult will give it up when it gets in their way of worship. And for others it is more difficult to give up so they needed it forbidden entirely. But the prohibition was implemented gradually–first people discouraged, then prevented sometimes, and then prevented all the time. Perfectly sensible.
You fail to understand my analogy as well as the verse in the Koran.I think that makes perfect sense. That is an example of progressive prohibition. This is like weaning somebody off of something. Those for whom it is easy to give up will give it up at the beginning, because it has some harm in it. Those for whom it is slightly more difficult will give it up when it gets in their way of worship. And for others it is more difficult to give up so they needed it forbidden entirely. But the prohibition was implemented gradually–first people discouraged, then prevented sometimes, and then prevented all the time. Perfectly sensible.
NOPE! The Koran first says alcohol is not altogether evil in itself as it contains some utility in its nature. Later it says there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol to the point of intoxication. Finally, it says alcohol is evil in itself. This is NOT progressive prohibition at all!Of course it’s there. First God reveals that there is harm in the alcohol, and then says not to pray under its influence, and then to avoid it entirely. That is progressive prohibition!
What I mean is 4:43 does not include gambling, which leaves you with those two contradictory verses about it: Gambling is not totally harmful because its harm is determined by people practicing it versus gambling is satanic in nature!
You fail to understand my analogy as well as the verse in the Koran.
Surah 4: 43. O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when you are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed.
This verse can by no means be included into the process of progressive prohibition of alcohol since it does not discourage people from drinking, but from PRAYING while DRUNK. Thus, what this Koran verse objects to is not alcohol itself, but the recitation of Islamic prayer after drinking alcohol to the point of intoxication.
Perhaps you didn’t know this, but Muslims pray five times a day. Every day. Mandatory prayers. At specific times. If you get drunk, it’s going to be extremely difficult to not miss a prayer, because of how frequent they are. Say you go out and drink after work when you get home… it’s summer, maybe you’ve already prayed the afternoon prayer but the sun is still up… you’ve got 3 hours before you must pray the next prayer, or it’s late! (very bad) So if you get drunk… you’ll have to miss that prayer. And if you start drinking after that one, then you’ll miss the next. And if you drink at night, you won’t be able to get up for the morning one. So it would be extremely difficult to fit alcohol into your daily routine and keep up the prayers because they are so frequent. Therefore to maintain all your prayers you’d have to pretty much stop, or only be able to drink a little maybe at night if you were still insistent. And then it was eventually prohibited altogether, and there’s a hadith saying that a person’s prayer won’t be accepted for 40 days after drinking–not getting drunk there, but just after drinking. But it wasn’t always prohibited, and gradually became so.
Further, this same Koran verse strikingly draws parallelism between intoxication and being ritually unclean by considering them similar and ordinary. In short, 4:43 allows men to drink alcohol and feel drunk, but prohibits them from praying in that state. Therefore, 4:43 has nothing to do with progressive prohibition of strong drinks.