Wine allowed in Islam?

[Sister_Amy]

I thought the reason why Muhammad forbade alcohol is because his drunk soldiers were losing battles (Bukhari:V4B52N70).

Weeiiiirrrrd. I thought the reason that GOD forbade alcohol is that it’s detrimental to society. Please refer to aforementioned ayaat from the Qur’an.

 

[Angelos]

Perhaps you didn’t know this, but Muslims pray five times a day. Every day. Mandatory prayers. At specific times. If you get drunk, it’s going to be extremely difficult to not miss a prayer, because of how frequent they are. Say you go out and drink after work when you get home… it’s summer, maybe you’ve already prayed the afternoon prayer but the sun is still up… you’ve got 3 hours before you must pray the next prayer, or it’s late! (very bad) So if you get drunk… you’ll have to miss that prayer. And if you start drinking after that one, then you’ll miss the next. And if you drink at night, you won’t be able to get up for the morning one. So it would be extremely difficult to fit alcohol into your daily routine and keep up the prayers because they are so frequent. Therefore to maintain all your prayers you’d have to pretty much stop, or only be able to drink a little maybe at night if you were still insistent. And then it was eventually prohibited altogether, and there’s a hadith saying that a person’s prayer won’t be accepted for 40 days after drinking–not getting drunk there, but just after drinking. But it wasn’t always prohibited, and gradually became so.

Perhaps you do not know, but the verse I quoted does not necessarily mean that Muslims used to drink alcohol to the point of intoxication five times a day or get drunk just before the time of each prayer. I am not interested in the Hadith, which condemns drinking alcohol in contrast to the Koran verse not condemning even intoxication! Thus, your arguments prove nothing.

Just explained above. You cannot pray while ritually impure, you have to go purify yourself. But if you’re drunk you can’t just purify yourself whenever you want, you have to wait a while.

However, the Koran verse in question disregards this difference when it presents intoxication as normal and ordinary as being ritually impure! Besides, it does not discourage people from feeling drunk despite the length of time a drunk man needs to feel sober again. I am reiterating for the 100th time: 4:43 is NOT against alcohol itself or getting drunk! It simply asks people not to pray while drunk. Above all, that Koran verse lets “the drunk man” decide if he is sober or not and if he can start praying or should wait longer.

In the case of alcohol, all three verses apply. And it’s not just “strong drinks” but it’s talking specifically about wine, made from dates I think, and that is applied to all kinds of intoxicants whether they come from grapes or dates or wheat or whatever. Now, the second verse does talk about intoxication and says you can’t pray in that state. The other two are talking about alcohol which as you pointed out means its the alcohol which is overall prohibited, and not just getting drunk.

Let me give you the order of the verses once more:

1) The first verse in Surah 2 **cannot **say that alcohol is altogether evil in itself.

2) The second verse about alcohol in Surah 4 implies that there is nothing wrong with intoxication. This leads us to the conclusion that the Koran does not condemn alcohol at all because it does not even prohibit intoxication!

3) The final verse about alcohol in Surah 5 all of a sudden and abruptly declares alcohol satan’s handiwork and totally evil, forgetting the previous verse that refers to alcohol’s utility as well as denying the verse that sanctions not only alcohol but also intoxication!!!

In short, these three Koran verses give no sign of moderation and gradual prohibition.

 

[Angelos]

I thought the reason why Muhammad forbade alcohol is because his drunk soldiers were losing battles (Bukhari:V4B52N70).

I once read in the book of an ex-Muslim writer that Mohammad made inconsistent statements about alcohol and got them written in the Koran because of his uncle who was a drunkard. Therefore, Mohammad had to wait until his uncle’s death in order to prohibit alcohol altogether.

 

[morning_star777]

wow mr.angelos you shot a missile with your reply.many thanks.cuz you gave lots of reference.we are waiting for the reply of our muslim fellows

 

[Angelos]

wow mr.angelos you shot a missile with your reply.many thanks.cuz you gave lots of reference.we are waiting for the reply of our muslim fellows

The response will not be a surprising one though! Sister Amy thinks that repeating her rebutted claims over and over will make her sound true and consistent.

 

[inJESUS]

Weeiiiirrrrd. I thought the reason that GOD forbade alcohol is that it’s detrimental to society. Please refer to aforementioned ayaat from the Qur’an.

if it were deterimental to society, why did Allah wait for Muhammad’s time to utter it?

 

[Sister_Amy]

if it were deterimental to society, why did Allah wait for Muhammad’s time to utter it?

Well if you notice the first ayah revealed on the subject, there is some benefit to it. I myself have speculated that at times the benefit outweighed the harm, and by the time of Muhammad the harm became worse. But really I don’t know, and don’t need to know.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Perhaps you do not know, but the verse I quoted does not necessarily mean that Muslims used to drink alcohol to the point of intoxication five times a day or get drunk just before the time of each prayer. I am not interested in the Hadith, which condemns drinking alcohol in contrast to the Koran verse not condemning even intoxication! Thus, your arguments prove nothing.

Your argument is like a magic trick–nothing really there, just the illusion of something, by typing lots of words. You’ve totally missed the point of my argument. Let me simplify.

1. People drank alcohol.
2. Allah said that there is great sin in alcohol, and only some benefit–and that the sin outweighs the benefit. That is a suggestion to avoid it.
3. Some people still drink alcohol.
4. Allah tells the people to stay away from the prayer after they have been drinking–meaning they shouldn’t drink before the prayer. With five daily prayers, that makes it more difficult to keep the prayers while drinking alcohol.
5. Some people still drinking alcohol.
6. Alcohol is condemned at last and people are commanded to abstain from it.

However, the Koran verse in question disregards this difference when it presents intoxication as normal and ordinary as being ritually impure!

Intoxication is not presented as normal or ordinary–it is presented as an impediment to prayer like ritual impurity, but doesn’t mean that it’s normal or ordinary.

Besides, it does not discourage people from feeling drunk despite the length of time a drunk man needs to feel sober again.

Of course it is discouraging them from GETTING drunk, because that will make them miss their prayers–VERY VERY BAD!!

I am reiterating for the 100th time: 4:43 is NOT against alcohol itself or getting drunk! It simply asks people not to pray while drunk. Above all, that Koran verse lets “the drunk man” decide if he is sober or not and if he can start praying or should wait longer.

You are unaware perhaps of the MAJOR MAJOR SIN involved in missing a prayer. It’s HUUUUGGEE. People don’t just miss prayers because they don’t feel like it. So the ayah IS against alcohol and drunkenness–it gently suggests people avoid both. And in such a beautiful and subtle way, as is the Qur’an.

Let me give you the order of the verses once more:

Please refer to my above enumerated list, as I have given you the order with the correct interpretation. I’ll repeat it here in case you didn’t get it.

1) The first verse in Surah 2 **cannot **say that alcohol is altogether evil in itself.

Cannot? Does not? Will not? Has not? Could not? Would not? Should not? Might not? The verse says that IN ALCOHOL IS GREAT SIN.

2) The second verse about alcohol in Surah 4 implies that there is nothing wrong with intoxication. This leads us to the conclusion that the Koran does not condemn alcohol at all because it does not even prohibit intoxication!

Au contraire! It says that INTOXICATION is so BAD that a person CANNOT PRAY–reminder that PRAYERS occur FIVE TIMES A DAY at SPECIFIC TIMES. Intoxication means a person would miss their prayers, and because intoxication means a person can’t pray during it means that there is SOMETHING WRONG with intoxication! (What’s wrong? See previous ayah–great sin in alcohol!)

3) The final verse about alcohol in Surah 5 all of a sudden and abruptly declares alcohol satan’s handiwork and totally evil, forgetting the previous verse that refers to alcohol’s utility as well as denying the verse that sanctions not only alcohol but also intoxication!!!

This is the third verse revealed on the subject, so it’s neither sudden nor abrupt, but part of a procedure to gradually prohibit alcohol. Alcohol has been called evil before–great sin, detriment to prayer, so nothing was forgotten.

It doesn’t deny anything at all–all verses apply. Even if a person DOES drink, though it’s forbidden, he still shouldn’t pray while drunk. Why not? Because there is great sin in alcohol.

In short, these three Koran verses give no sign of moderation and gradual prohibition.

In short, they are exactly a demonstration of progressive prohibition.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I once read in the book of an ex-Muslim writer that Mohammad made inconsistent statements about alcohol and got them written in the Koran because of his uncle who was a drunkard. Therefore, Mohammad had to wait until his uncle’s death in order to prohibit alcohol altogether.

I once read that there was a young man who grew up on Mars, raised by little green Martians.

 

[inJESUS]

Well if you notice the first ayah revealed on the subject, there is some benefit to it. I myself have speculated that at times the benefit outweighed the harm, and by the time of Muhammad the harm became worse..

 

[inJESUS]

1. Allah said that there is great sin in alcohol, and only some benefit–and that the sin outweighs the benefit. That is a suggestion to avoid it.

 

[Sister_Amy]

that is a suggestion to take the benefit. If it has benefit, why not take it?

 

[inJESUS]

It’s not a suggestion to take the benefit, because it said that the harm is greater.

why not take its benefit?

should we abstain from the benefit only because drinking too much is bad? at best, do not drink too much . The aya does not support your conclusion because i can use another example:

Sugar has benefits but its harm is greater.

Can anyone claim that this explanation prohibits sugar? no, it probits its excess, since sugar HAS BENEFIT as well.

In other words, this aya is not prohibiting alcohol but praising its benefit and warning of its excess.

It says do not approach “salaah” which is the 5 daily prayers.

where the 5 daily prayers revealed in the same time in the same aya before the aya of wine?

from tafsir ibn kathir on

my question is why would Allah call satan’s work as beneficial?

 

[Sister_Amy]

why not take its benefit?

is bad? at best, do not drink too much . The aya does not support your conclusion because i can use another example:

Sugar has benefits but its harm is greater.

Can anyone claim that this explanation prohibits sugar? no, it probits its excess, since sugar HAS BENEFIT as well.

In other words, this aya is not prohibiting alcohol but praising its benefit and warning of its excess.The ayah does not support YOUR conclusion. The ayah doesn’t say “too much wine” is bad. It says that there is GREAT SIN in the wine. Not some sin in a lot of wine. But a lot of sin in wine. It doesn’t say that drinking too much is bad, but that the wine itself is bad. It can be beneficial, but that it’s more harmful. Not just in large quantities, but in general. The harm outweighs the benefit, that’s what it says. The harm outweighs the benefit.

where the 5 daily prayers revealed in the same time in the same aya before the aya of wine?

Huh? Five daily prayers were established before the ayah in question.

my question is why would Allah call satan’s work as beneficial?

It is Satan which takes something harmless or beneficial and makes it evil. It is an easy way for Satan to whisper and lead someone to sin. Suppose you have a man going to the prayer every day, and one day he passes this woman who asks him where he’s going and so he takes the opportunity to tell her about Islam. And goes into her house where she is alone, and then she lures him into sexual activity. All while his intention was good–but the harm in the act was greater than the benefit. Satan whispers to the person to start doing a good deed if they have to do something bad to do it, because then they fall into his trap.

 

[Angelos]

Well if you notice the first ayah revealed on the subject, there is some benefit to it. I myself have speculated that at times the benefit outweighed the harm, and by the time of Muhammad the harm became worse. But really I don’t know, and don’t need to know.

Mohammad’s Allah stated that the benefit of drinking alcohol outweighed its harm for the first time in Surah 2, which was devised in Medina after Muslims’ migration! Why did Allah not inform his beloved messenger of alcohol’s overriding harm prior to his migration? Did Allah really wait for a bunch of people to question Mohammad about gambling and alcohol so that he could reveal this supposed fact or did Muslims start drinking alcohol only after the Hijrah?

 

[Angelos]

Your argument is like a magic trick–nothing really there, just the illusion of something, by typing lots of words. You’ve totally missed the point of my argument. Let me simplify.

1. Allah said that there is great sin in alcohol, and only some benefit–and that the sin outweighs the benefit. That is a suggestion to avoid it.
2. Allah tells the people to stay away from the prayer after they have been drinking–meaning they shouldn’t drink before the prayer. With five daily prayers, that makes it more difficult to keep the prayers while drinking alcohol.

2) I must correct you because your posts have recently been misleading as a result of your tendency to confuse the notion of “sin” with that of “harm”. The verse in Surah 2 by no means designates alcohol as having great “sin”. It simply says that there is greater harm in alcohol despite some benefit in it. Thus, the verse in question approaches the issue of consuming alcohol with regard to its benefits and harms to one’s body (health). In short, the verse has no theological implications. If you claim that what is meant with the word “harm” is SIN, you must also accept that what is meant with the word benefit is works of charity (good deeds)! This is certainly not the case.

**4) **Your conclusion is based on the faulty presumption that all Muslims at that time drank alcohol to the point of intoxication before daily prayers. What about night prayers? There is plenty of time for a Muslim to drink heavily after the night prayers and recover from drunkenness until the morning prayers. The verse in Surah 4 does not ask Muslims to keep away from drinking, but tolerates even intoxication at the expense of the recitation of daily prayers.

Intoxication is not presented as normal or ordinary–it is presented as an impediment to prayer like ritual impurity, but doesn’t mean that it’s normal or ordinary.

Where does the Koran claim that staying always ritually clean is possible? Further, what you only infer from this verse is that INTOXICATION is an impediment to prayers, not ALCOHOL. You should pay attention to the fact that all drunken people drink alcohol but not all drinking people get drunk! In short, this verse does not even condemn INTOXICATION as something EVIL or Satan’s handiwork.

Of course it is discouraging them from GETTING drunk, because that will make them miss their prayers–VERY VERY BAD!! You are unaware perhaps of the MAJOR MAJOR SIN involved in missing a prayer. It’s HUUUUGGEE. People don’t just miss prayers because they don’t feel like it. So the ayah IS against alcohol and drunkenness–it gently suggests people avoid both. And in such a beautiful and subtle way, as is the Qur’an.

This is as unreasonable as saying that sexual intercourse is a bad thing because all rapists have sex! The verse does not present drunkenness as the ONLY impediment to prayers. Muslims can and do miss their prayers even if they do not drink at all!

Please refer to my above enumerated list, as I have given you the order with the correct interpretation. I’ll repeat it here in case you didn’t get it.

Thanks, I do not need your enumerated list, which only reflects your confusion about the notion of sin and harm.

In short, they are exactly a demonstration of progressive prohibition.

NOPE. That cannot be considered an example of progressive prohibition because the Koran declares alcohol “Satan’s handiwork” after letting people drink it to the point of intoxication AND after saying that it’s harm is more than its benefit. There is not a single verse in the Koran condemning or prohibiting the excessive consumption of alcohol and intoxication despite the existence of a verse referring to alcohol itself as satanic.This is exactly inconsistent and contradictory.

 

[inJESUS]

It doesn’t say that drinking too much is bad, but that the wine itself is bad. It can be beneficial

, but that it’s more harmful. Not just in large quantities, but in general. The harm outweighs the benefit, that’s what it says. The harm outweighs the benefit. talk about confusion.

Harm outweghts benefit is NOT a prohibition! it is the best scenario to mention that something is good and bad at the same time. It can be harmful AS WELL AS beneficial, so it is not about alcohol per se but about the AMOUNT, otherwise it makes NO sense to say it has benefit if alcohol is ONLY bad and must not be drunk. It is the same as saying :

Sugar is beneficial but its harm outweghts its benefit.

Can any sane human claim that the above verse PROHIBITS sugar? no, logic says it means : take the benefit out of sugar ( indirectly, consume it with moderation).

It is Satan which takes something harmless or beneficial and makes it evil.

so satan uses the harmless and beneficial alcohol consumption and turn in into harm …how? by excessive drinking whereas the substance per se is beneficial in moderation.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Mohammad’s Allah stated that the benefit of drinking alcohol outweighed its harm for the first time in Surah 2, which was devised in Medina after Muslims’ migration! Why did Allah not inform his beloved messenger of alcohol’s overriding harm prior to his migration? Did Allah really wait for a bunch of people to question Mohammad about gambling and alcohol so that he could reveal this supposed fact or did Muslims start drinking alcohol only after the Hijrah?

You mean, that the harm outweighed the benefit.

In Mecca, there was not an Islamic society. The focus was simply on the basics of faith and worship. When the Muslims moved to Medina they were able to establish an Islamic state there, so the legislation of Islam in the Qur’an began to be revealed in Medina.

 

[Sister_Amy]

talk about confusion.

First of all, of course it’s not a prohibition. This was the first step TOWARDS a prohibition.

Secondly, it is NOT about the amount, because it doesn’t say it’s about the amount. That is only your assumption and interpretation, which is not backed up by textual analysis. Regardless of the amount, the harm outweighs the benefit. Read what it says, and stay with that. Because you are implying things that you believe or want to believe, but not what the text says. In that sense, you’re just like those backwater Muslims who abuse their women–interpreting the Qur’an to suit your own whims.

so satan uses the harmless and beneficial alcohol consumption and turn in into harm …how? by excessive drinking whereas the substance per se is beneficial in moderation.

Again, your interpretation only.

 

[Steven_John]

For unity in believers of the One God Most High,

The common point i get from all of your posts is

It is not what goes into us that makes us unholy it is what comes out of us.

May God / Allah bless and guide us all.