Wise words from Cardinal Muller

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Many of us have said that one should call for the Pope’s resignation. I have seen it in multiple Catholic news and editorials the past 3 months. I do not know why you say “its about time”.

As for “launching a formal accusation against the Pope” being absolutely wrong, I am not for sure I agree with Cardinal Muller on that statement. Are you sure you do?
 
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I have heard of no cleric that has the clout that Cardinal Muller does say anything negative about Vigano and his “testimony”.

And yes, I do believe that anyone in the Church who thinks that they can/should call for an investigation of the Vicar of Christ without any real proof other than someone’s own personal biases is wrong. Very wrong.
 
You are changing the statement from “someone” to a “cleric that has the clout of Cardinal Muller”. And I suppose Cardinal Ouellet’s letter from Oct 7th doesn’t count because he does not have Muller’s clout?

I would agree that “anyone in the Church who thinks that they can/should call for an investigation of the Vicar of Christ without any real proof other than someone’s own personal biases is wrong”, but that is not what I asked, is it? And we do not know if it applies to Vigano, do we? Especially since the files which he referenced will not be released (despite Pope Francis telling the media to investigate the matter).
 
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You have a friend who worked with Vigano and he had an obvious axe to grind with the Holy Father. Yet, until now, no senior cleric has stood up for the Holy Father against Vigano. Do you not see the contradiction here? I guess no other cleric work with AB Vigano as closely as your friend?
 
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I think you need to do some editing because I am not sure what you are trying to say.

And yes, others have spoken out, but as I said, none as high profile or as admired by the more traditional side than Cardinal Muller.
 
I’m still not sure what you are implying.
Muller is respected as a more traditional leaning, Vatican insider who has who has been the first of that ideaolgy to say anything negative about Vigano’s rant.
As far as my knowledge of AB Vigano while he was the Nuncio, it is through personal connections and media account that portray him as embittered toward Pope Francis for a variety if reasons, which is why I said that he (Vigano) has an axe to grind.
 
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I agree with Cdl. Muller that it is not right to demand the Pope’s resignation. I think it sets a bad precedent that should never have been established to begin with (at least in modern times) by Pope Benedict XVI. I do not necessarily agree with his statement about disagreements being handled in a discreet and non-public way. That approach has been tried for decades with regards to the sexual abuse scandals, and it isn’t working.

His statement about having confidence in Pope Francis’ handling of the sexual abuse crisis is most interesting given that several months ago he strongly implied in a different interview that Pope Francis personally intervened to shut down sexual abuse investigations of papal allies when he was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. We’ll see how the February meeting goes, but I do not share his confidence that there will be significant change or progress in the near future.
 
I am saying there is a contradiction to your claims. On one hand, though a personal connection and media accounts, you know he is embittered towards the Pope. Yet you start the thread by saying its about time someone came in defense of the pope.
 
Cardinal Muller is certainly one of the more traditional and orthodox of the German bishops. I wish that he were still the head of the CDF.

He is right that no one has the right to demand a pope’s resignation. Yet there is and has been a sort of quasi-civil war going on within the Church for the past 50 years or so. Rod Dreher comments about it in some detail HERE, but his blogs tend to go on rather endlessly from one subject to another, so it’s hard to get through it all. The Church has survived worse times and it will survive these times.
 
Thanks for the link no to Deher’s blog. Not always a fan, but worthh reading. It is the case that the current abuse crisis has become a battleground for the ongoing conflict between conservatives and liberals in the church (no, I do not like those terms, but they are what we have). Strong supporters of Pope Francis claim that the conservative side are being opportunists in using this crises to oppose a pope they simply don’t like. But that, with a couple of exceptions, is not the case. Rather, most of us conservatives are not calling for Francis to step down, and are not linking the crisis to unrelated actions of Francis such as Amoris laetitia. But we do see that the liberals absolutely refuse to link the abuse crisis to a seminary crisis. And that is what, at this point in time, the abuse crisis is all about. That refusal is what has forced the abuse crisis to become a battleground in the long lasting conflict between conservatives and liberals in the church.
 
It’s not the crisis itself, it is what both sides believe to be the cause of the crisis that is causing issues.

When the “conservative” side uses a wide brush to paint every gay priest as an abuser who doesn’t belong in ministry, the liberal side is going to push back.

Like all sexual abuse, there are many reasons and making scapegoats of anyone group is always and in every way wrong.
 
CilladeRoma said:
When the “conservative” side uses a wide brush to paint every gay priest as an abuser who doesn’t belong in ministry, the liberal side is going to push back.
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Except we do not say that. I have read no one say that, not even those very few conservatives who have taken things too far in their criticisms of Pope Francis. You are making an accusation which is not true. Go back through the thread about if homosexuality is the cause of the problem. You will find zero posts claiming every gay priest is an abuser.

Pope Francis, to his great credit, often preaches on love and charity. Perhaps you should think about that.
 
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Do you also have some beachfront property in Arizona for me to buy?

I can think of 2 Bishops, right off the top of my head,who have written articles that claim it is the “gay mafia” that has infiltrated the Church and that unless and until all gay men are removed/banned from ministry nothing will ever change.
 
I hope claim that there is a laveder Mafia in the clergy. but I do not claim every gay priest is an abuser or needs removed from ministry. Show me one statement from one of the two bishops where they say that they should all be removed.
 
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From Bishop Morlino’s August 18, 2018 statement, my emphases added,
It is time to admit that there is a homosexual subculture within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church that is wreaking great devastation in the vineyard of the Lord. The Church’s teaching is clear that the homosexual inclination is not in itself sinful, but it is intrinsically disordered in a way that renders any man stably afflicted by it unfit to be a priest. And the decision to act upon this disordered inclination is a sin so grave that it cries out to heaven for vengeance, especially when it involves preying upon the young or the vulnerable. Such wickedness should be hated with a perfect hatred. Christian charity itself demands that we should hate wickedness just as we love goodness. But while hating the sin, we must never hate the sinner, who is called to conversion, penance, and renewed communion with Christ and His Church, through His inexhaustible mercy.
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And then let’s not even discuss his call for “hatred”.
 
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To be fair to that bishop, he is simply repeating the policy of the Church (in context, Morlino’s phrase “stably afflicted” is the same as the phrase “deep-seated” in the document below. Neither excludes from ordination a person when this is “transitory”)

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

As for hatred of particular sins, again, he is just repeating what the Church has traditionally held. This “perfect hatred” is described by St. Augustine here:
And since no one is evil by nature, but whoever is evil is evil by vice, he who lives according to God ought to cherish towards evil men a perfect hatred, so that he shall neither hate the man because of his vice, nor love the vice because of the man, but hate the vice and love the man. For the vice being cursed, all that ought to be loved, and nothing that ought to be hated, will remain.
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More on the distinction between the two forms of hatred, only one of which is always a sin and the other which can be a virtue, here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm
 
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Then he could have used deep seated and in our social climate right now, the word hate is pretty loaded.
I would expect a Bishop, who is first and foremost, a pastor of souls, to choose his words more carefully.
 
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JimG said:
He is right that no one has the right to demand a pope’s resignation.
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Cdl. Muller isn’t wrong, but he is confused. No one has a “right”, but everyone is “free” to demand a pope’s resignation. Further, no one commits a sin in this matter unless they will some evil.
 
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