Wishing to be Protestant again...

[benidict]

Are you trying to be rude? That word wasn’t a very nice word.

hi tweety mom. thank you. its really ok tho. im trying to draw out why he believes the way he does, and he cannot give a clear response. trust me my dear. i take worse than this every day. he/she cannot hurt my feelings. Peace

 

[Cat]

OK, you are both not getting the point. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ, body blood soul and divinity, the SOURCE and the SUMMIT of all Christian life. Why? Because He is God, and God created us (source) and God made us because He wants us to be united to Him forever in heaven(summit) (whether we are or not depends upon how we respond to His grace). Therefore, there is NOT more to life than the Eucharist because the Eucharist is God and God keeps us in existence. Without God, we wouldn’t have life; we wouldn’t even be here. And perhaps that’s the problem when it comes to discussing “fellowship.” Do you want fellowship with mere human beings, or do you want fellowship with God? By entering into fellowship with God, you have fellowship with all the other human beings who also are in fellowship with God–that’s what communion is all about. And those who have said we need each other are absolutely correct. We are members of the one mystical Body of Christ. When one member suffers, we all suffer. When one member is honored, the whole Body is honored. But many people neither understand that, nor have experienced it. Whenever I’ve needed help, God has put people into my path, but maybe that’s because I put God first–before my children, before my husband, before my parents, etc., etc.

I agree with what you say.

However, I respectfully suggest that you are emphasizing the spiritual and disregarding the physical, and this is not correct Catholic thinking. The Catholic Church has always cared for the complete human being–not just our spiritual needs, but our physical needs. Mass is a wonderful demonstration of the melding of spiritual and physical–the “smells and bells” along with the architecture, appeal to all our senses, not just our inner souls.

Many Christians are simply not at a place yet where they can abandon all human interests, especially friendships, and be totally devoted to Jesus Alone.

They accept intellectually that Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament is the Alpha and the Omega, the Summit of all, and the Way, Truth, and the Life.

But they still wish they had a friend to have lunch with after Mass. And they wish that they could find that friend in the Church, in their own parish. But for many, their parish doesn’t seem to have a lot of opportunities to meet others and make friends. Mass is not that place for chatting and small talk and lunch invitations. But if not Mass, then when and where and what?

That’s what the OP is asking. And I think he/she has a legitimate question-why don’t Catholic parishes provide opportunities to meet others in the parish?

I see no sin at all in that human longing for human companionship. I’m not sure if I’m misinterpreting you, because I am getting the impression that you believe that such longing is wrong and insulting to the Lord Jesus. If I am wrong, please tell me.

**I think it is very appropriate for a parish in this day and age, 2010, to work to provide social settings and opportunities for parishioners to meet each other and make friends. **

In the past, as recently as the 1950s and 60s, it wasn’t necessary, because many parishioners lived in the same neighborhoods, went to the same parish schools, worked in the same factories and offices, attended the same block BBQs and Tupperware parties, bowled on the same leagues, sat on the porches and watched while all their children played block baseball together, and eventually, attended each other’s funerals.

But in this day and age, 2010, things aren’t like that.

Many Catholics choose to send their children to public schools, secular private schools, even Protestant schools, and many homeschool. People don’t work in a few huge factories anymore–many work from home and are completely isolated from their parishioners for most of the week. And most of us have never even had a block BBQ in our neighborhood, and if we did, most of the people attend other churches, not our parish.

I think that many local parishes need to accept that the days of the neighborhood parish are gone in most cities, and they need to consider the possibility of adding some opportunities for fellowship. I don’t think “Coffee and Donuts” is enough, especially when many parishioners are trying to avoid eating for at least 15 minutes after receiving the Lord in Holy Communion, and considering that for many of us, donuts, sadly, are off our diets, and so it coffee.

Another thing that has changed in the last few decades is the large number of converts in the Catholic Church who have come out of the evangelical Protestant traditions, where there is a very different mechanism in place for meeting people, making friends, and being involved socially outside the worship services.

**I’m NOT saying that the Catholic Church needs to become “more Protestant.” But what I’m saying is that Catholic parishes need to be aware that there are many converts who are enthusiastically “home in Rome” when it comes to their religion, but who don’t feel at home at all when it comes to social interaction. **

Work needs to be done to help these converts meet others, make friends, and become involved in the parish. IF the converts do not become involved, I predict that many will eventually leave the Catholic Church out of loneliness and lack of inclusion and a feeling that no matter how wonderful the Eucharist is, it doesn’t seem to make a difference in real life. Telling these people that Christ is the Summit will not help at all–they already know that, but they’re still lonely and they’re still human beings and they still need friends and some kind of involvement in the parish life.

I am fortunate that my parish, and indeed, all the parishes that I know in our city, provide a rich tapestry of social, service, and study opportunities. There is no excuse in our city for Catholics to be lonely and left out and bored!

 

[Bluegoat]

OK, you are both not getting the point. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ, body blood soul and divinity, the SOURCE and the SUMMIT of all Christian life. Why? Because He is God, and God created us (source) and God made us because He wants us to be united to Him forever in heaven(summit) (whether we are or not depends upon how we respond to His grace). Therefore, there is NOT more to life than the Eucharist because the Eucharist is God and God keeps us in existence. Without God, we wouldn’t have life; we wouldn’t even be here. And perhaps that’s the problem when it comes to discussing “fellowship.” Do you want fellowship with mere human beings, or do you want fellowship with God? By entering into fellowship with God, you have fellowship with all the other human beings who also are in fellowship with God–that’s what communion is all about. And those who have said we need each other are absolutely correct. We are members of the one mystical Body of Christ. When one member suffers, we all suffer. When one member is honored, the whole Body is honored. But many people neither understand that, nor have experienced it. Whenever I’ve needed help, God has put people into my path, but maybe that’s because I put God first–before my children, before my husband, before my parents, etc., etc.

I think Cat and I both understand what you meant, but it simply doesn’t really address the OPs problem. But no one has been arguing against the Eucharist as the ultimate way of participating in reality. I never even got the impression that any Catholics who posted were thinking of leaving the CC or its sacraments.

But for some reason, when someone complains of being lonely and not finding friendship in their church with other Catholics, , people inevitably point out that the Eucharist should be enough. And in a time of necessity, it is, but that is not the ideal way for people to live. Friendship with other Christians is important, and can be difficult to find in a post-Christian society. And members of a parish church are meant to be a kind of extended family, providing support fr each other in need. Especially when people are having difficulties related to living as Christians!

It isn’t always the case that this is done well in Protestant parishes and badly in Catholic ones by any means, but I think when it happens it is a problem. (As an example in a Protestant case, I know a lady who had a series of terrible occurrences all at once and was in real need - no one from her church inquired why she was suddenly not around. But then they sent a note saying she was behind in her offering!)

 

[mmsiciliana]

That is more to life than the Eucharist, strange as it is to find myself saying it.

Nope. “I am the way, the truth and the LIFE.”

OK, you are both not getting the point. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ, body blood soul and divinity, the SOURCE and the SUMMIT of all Christian life. Why? Because He is God, and God created us (source) and God made us because He wants us to be united to Him forever in heaven(summit) (whether we are or not depends upon how we respond to His grace). Therefore, there is NOT more to life than the Eucharist because the Eucharist is God and God keeps us in existence. Without God, we wouldn’t have life; we wouldn’t even be here. And perhaps that’s the problem when it comes to discussing “fellowship.” Do you want fellowship with mere human beings, or do you want fellowship with God? By entering into fellowship with God, you have fellowship with all the other human beings who also are in fellowship with God–that’s what communion is all about. And those who have said we need each other are absolutely correct. We are members of the one mystical Body of Christ. When one member suffers, we all suffer. When one member is honored, the whole Body is honored. But many people neither understand that, nor have experienced it. Whenever I’ve needed help, God has put people into my path, but maybe that’s because I put God first–before my children, before my husband, before my parents, etc., etc.

I agree with what you say.

However, I respectfully suggest that you are emphasizing the spiritual and disregarding the physical, and this is not correct Catholic thinking. The Catholic Church has always cared for the complete human being–not just our spiritual needs, but our physical needs. Mass is a wonderful demonstration of the melding of spiritual and physical–the “smells and bells” along with the architecture, appeal to all our senses, not just our inner souls.

Many Christians are simply not at a place yet where they can abandon all human interests, especially friendships, and be totally devoted to Jesus Alone.

They accept intellectually that Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament is the Alpha and the Omega, the Summit of all, and the Way, Truth, and the Life.

But they still wish they had a friend to have lunch with after Mass. And they wish that they could find that friend in the Church, in their own parish. But for many, their parish doesn’t seem to have a lot of opportunities to meet others and make friends. Mass is not that place for chatting and small talk and lunch invitations. But if not Mass, then when and where and what?

That’s what the OP is asking. And I think he/she has a legitimate question-why don’t Catholic parishes provide opportunities to meet others in the parish?

I see no sin at all in that human longing for human companionship. I’m not sure if I’m misinterpreting you, because I am getting the impression that you believe that such longing is wrong and insulting to the Lord Jesus. If I am wrong, please tell me. !

OK, yes, you are misinterpreting me. I said exactly what you’re saying: “And those who have said we need each other are absolutely correct. We are members of the one mystical Body of Christ. When one member suffers, we all suffer. When one member is honored, the whole Body is honored. But many people neither understand that, nor have experienced it.” My issue was with the poster who said there is more to life than the Eucharist, which, when you think about it philosophically and theologically is not correct, since the Eucharist=Jesus, Jesus=God, God created us (is the Source of our Being) and union with God is the reason God made us (the Summit). The Eucharist–God–should permeate our lives whether we’re inside Church at Mass or Adoration, or whether we’re at work or home or at the grocery store or mall. We are not to be compartmentalizing our lives and leaving God in the one hour box we put aside for Him on the weekend when or if we decide to go to Mass.
That being said, remember, we’re CATHOLICS. We are made for communion with BOTH God (first) AND with each other, not EITHER God OR each other. (Lots of BOTH-AND in the Church…The Mass is BOTH a sacrifice AND a meal; Mary is BOTH virgin AND mother; Jesus is BOTH true God AND true man, etc.) The relationships I have with my family members and loved ones are the most precious gifts God has given me, outside of my Catholic faith.
For the past 15 years or so, I’ve been a member of a parish that had 300 families when I joined and nothing happening outside of Mass except for Religious Education. Every parish has Religious Education. Get involved in that; if nothing else. (Now the same parish has over 5,000 families; we register approximately one family per day every month; we built a new church building in 2001 at the cost of $8 million dollars, which has been paid off and we have so many ministries that we will soon be building a Parish Center.)

 

[Cat]

OK, yes, you are misinterpreting me. I said exactly what you’re saying: “And those who have said we need each other are absolutely correct. We are members of the one mystical Body of Christ. When one member suffers, we all suffer. When one member is honored, the whole Body is honored. But many people neither understand that, nor have experienced it.” My issue was with the poster who said there is more to life than the Eucharist, which, when you think about it philosophically and theologically is not correct, since the Eucharist=Jesus, Jesus=God, God created us (is the Source of our Being) and union with God is the reason God made us (the Summit). The Eucharist–God–should permeate our lives whether we’re inside Church at Mass or Adoration, or whether we’re at work or home or at the grocery store or mall. We are not to be compartmentalizing our lives and leaving God in the one hour box we put aside for Him on the weekend when or if we decide to go to Mass.
That being said, remember, we’re CATHOLICS. We are made for communion with BOTH God (first) AND with each other, not EITHER God OR each other. (Lots of BOTH-AND in the Church…The Mass is BOTH a sacrifice AND a meal; Mary is BOTH virgin AND mother; Jesus is BOTH true God AND true man, etc.) The relationships I have with my family members and loved ones are the most precious gifts God has given me, outside of my Catholic faith.
For the past 15 years or so, I’ve been a member of a parish that had 300 families when I joined and nothing happening outside of Mass except for Religious Education. Every parish has Religious Education. Get involved in that; if nothing else. (Now the same parish has over 5,000 families; we register approximately one family per day every month; we built a new church building in 2001 at the cost of $8 million dollars, which has been paid off and we have so many ministries that we will soon be building a Parish Center.)

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you. I hope that the OP finds that his/her parish grows the same way your is growing.

 

[koshakoji]

Hi all. I have been reading these boards for a while but never felt the need to register until reading this thread.
I find it strange that some people here would say that there is not enough fun in their Catholic community. I have never felt more at home than I do at Mass. To me, the liturgy, the Eucharist (even though I am not allowed to receive it yet) are “fun”. What could be more fun than worshiping our Lord?
I have been to a lot of protestant churches (and some mosques) and I have never felt His presence the way I do when I go to Mass. To me, that is the greatest “fun”.
If you want to meet other Catholics for fellowship, then why don’t you just get involved in the local Catholic school (volunteers who have completed Virtus and a background check are always welcome) or whatever else is available locally?
Personally, I will take a Catholic Mass any day over a protestant church where I will get to hear a sermon on whatever topic the minister feels like discussing that day.

 

[eucharisteo]

You really sound unhappy?

Don’t get me wrong people. There are very many things I do miss about our previous faith. We were just as active there as we are in our parish and diocese now. In fact, it is sad that our involvement is rather unusual in the Catholic Church it seems. But, here vocations are recognized as dignified. Before we were pushed to do more and more. Unless you belonged to one of the conservative “churches of Christ” you just will not understand me. I was being sarcastic, but truthful. Being part of a mixed religious family destroyed my family life growing up. For someone who survived all the torment I went through growing up because of it I believe I’m doing great. Even Southern Baptists are liberal to what we used to be. Bible thumping thinking that my father, mother, brother and family and friends are without a doubt burning in hell really played a number on me. It was one of the first main questions I had to our associate pastor. I asked “what does the Catholic Church teach about salvation outside the Catholic Church”. He told me and a peace has come over me. Think about this, our entire family believes we are going to hell when we die because we are Catholic and 95% of what they accuse Catholics and us of is simply not true. It is painful and that may be what you are perceiving out of my posts. My heart aches when I express this, that is why we joke about it flippantly. It’s therapeutic for us. But we do feel extreme loss after our conversion. However, we do find peace in being Catholic and practice our faith as best we can for the salvation of not only ourselves but the salvation of our family, friends and you guys. We do love you. But some of you we do believe are very confused and some very twisted, as in ill mannered towards us Catholics.

Be at peace and just pray for me because I’m praying for you guys. Life isn’t supposed to be a box of chocolates. Life is a mystery in that there is much suffering in the world. We embrace our suffering for the sake of Christ.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Koshakoji,

**You wrote (expressing what many others, too, have written): ** *I have been reading these boards for a while but never felt the need to register until reading this thread. I find it strange that some people here would say that there is not enough fun in their Catholic community. I have never felt more at home than I do at Mass. To me, the liturgy, the Eucharist (even though I am not allowed to receive it yet) are “fun”. What could be more fun than worshiping our Lord?

I have been to a lot of Protestant churches (and some mosques) and I have never felt His presence the way I do when I go to Mass. To me, that is the greatest “fun”.*​

There seems to be a lot of subjectivism being expressed by many contributors regarding the relative virtues of things Protestant and of that which is Catholic. We do NOT live the Catholic faith on the basis of what our emotions dictate, or what is “fun”, or any of that sort of thing. We live by faith! Believe and, in doint that, distrust what your feelings would dictate to you, if you were to trust them.

“And I live, now not I, but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh, I live in the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and delivered Himself for me” – Galations 2:20

“But God is true, and every man a liar” – Romans 3:4

“God is greater than our heart” – 1 St. John 3:20

Both quotes are from the Douay-Rheims-Challoner Version of the Bible.

Keep in mind, when dealing with your unstable feelings and perceptions that “every man” who is “a liar” can include yourself!

These verses, and others to similar effect, come to mind when I am at Mass, at my prayer manual personal devotions, or whatever, when I am aware of how inadequately I feel (tired, bored, discouraged, insufficiently attentive, whatever) but also that none of this ultimately bears on the spiritual vitality and efficacy of the sacraments and of authorised liturgies. Even the “feel[ing of] His presence” that you mention is less important than the objective certainty, in believing what is revealed as Catholic truty, that we have, quite apart from our sentiments, that He is, indeed, present (even when our minds and emotions seem absent). The Mass is the Mass, however poor the execution of the priest; if the man when at altar, lectern, or pulpit is that bad, I always can block him out by saying the Jesus or Marian Rosary, confident that our Lord still will be really and truly present in the consecrated elements and that I really and truly shall receive Him when I commune. I can chafe at how shoddy things can be carried out at times, but confident that God will work through His Church and correct it, eventually, where it is lacking (though in nothing essential to being the Church) to some degree.

Protestantism does not offer that kind of certitude either at all or (in the case of Lutheranism and “Anglo-Catholicism”) not with the same confidence and fulness of understanding (and in none of their cases with the absolute validity of the sacraments of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches).

So, yeah, I wish, for example, at times (in fact, often) that Catholic priests tended more often to have the preaching ability and scholarliness (and evidence of real effort being made) of good Protestant ministers, but I still am glad that I am at Catholic Mass!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[Amy1966]

Jesus would beg to differ with you; hope you get the message. You believe in the word of God–the Bible. Catholics believe in the Word of God–Jesus Christ. That is what “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” means. It means that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity–the eternal Word spoken by the Father has always existed. It doesn’t mean the Bible is God.

And interesting that you would quote: In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"
Listening, not reading. The Gospel in the early Church was spread by word of mouth. The New Testament as we have it today wasn’t fully compiled until the Catholic Church put it together around the year 300.

I can see you find pleasure in minimizing the Scriptures along with those that treasure them. While pretending to show some historic understanding of where the Scriptures actually came from as you contradicted yourself with the Scripture.

This is but just a few examples of numerous.

I do wonder when theses Epistles were written and if they were circulated in the period of the “early church”. I also wonder what Paul meant when he stated: "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions {DOCTRINES} which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.

When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter {that is coming} from Laodicea.

I adjure you by the Lord to *** this letter read to all the brethren.***

If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him,

Do you pretend to know or understand more than the Apostle Paul on how the gospel and other NT letters were circulated? Anyone can put out sound-bites, but it takes some time and effort to get the truth.

The Scriptures are “God breathed”; just as you are. It is the very reason why Scripture, unlike any other book, has the ability to influence and change lives. The Scriptures are part of God just as the Christian is part of God. Perhaps the Scriptures have not transformed your life; only you and the Holy Spirit can determine that.

 

[crazzeto]

I can see you find pleasure in minimizing the Scriptures along with those that treasure them. While pretending to show some historic understanding of where the Scriptures actually came from as you contradicted yourself with the Scripture.

This is but just a few examples of numerous.

I do wonder when theses Epistles were written and if they were circulated in the period of the “early church”. I also wonder what Paul meant when he stated: "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions {DOCTRINES} which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.

When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter {that is coming} from Laodicea.

I adjure you by the Lord to *** this letter read to all the brethren.***

If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him,

Do you pretend to know or understand more than the Apostle Paul on how the gospel and other NT letters were circulated? Anyone can put out sound-bites, but it takes some time and effort to get the truth.

The Scriptures are “God breathed”; just as you are. It is the very reason why Scripture, unlike any other book, has the ability to influence and change lives. The Scriptures are part of God just as the Christian is part of God. Perhaps the Scriptures have not transformed your life; only you and the Holy Spirit can determine that.

Amy,

We Catholics believe in adhering to the complete Word of God, which while the Bible forms the bedrock of the known teachings of Christ, it is not the complete Word of God. As St. John the Apostle and Evangalist says:

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Think of the Bible as the core, immutable tradition of the Christian faith lovingly perserved and pulmigated by the Catholic Church now in it’s third millenium. But there is more, oh yes Amy there is more to the Word of God than the bible.

Most directly and fundamentally, mmsiciliana is correct. Jesus Christ is the Eternal Word of God. On this, there can be no denail, I refer you to the writings of St. John in both is Gosple and his Revelation:

John 1

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

Is the bible God Amy?

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

…

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

Did the Bible ever become flesh? And dwell among us?

From St. John’s Revelation we have:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened: and behold a white horse. And he that sat upon him was called faithful and true: and with justice doth he judge and fight.
Rev 19:12 And his eyes were as a flame of fire: and on his head were many diadems. And he had a name written, which no man knoweth but himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a garment sprinkled with blood. And his name is called: THE WORD OF GOD.

Do you contend that was a great big bible in the Sky that St. John saw? No Amy, it was most certainly our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

Now I would direct you back to your own posting, and to your referral to 2 Thessalonians 2:14:

2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Noticed the underlined bit that you minimized the the emphisis of the Bible, by word… or by Epistle… Notice how by word takes prominance here. That is because Christianity was primarly an Oral tradition for the first few centuries of it’s existance, that’s right for the first ~400 years people were getting saved with out the benifit of having any bible at all… At best the Christians had a collection of Christian writings which no one really knew were inspired or not… Some core writings were generally accepted, others like Revelation or Hebrews were highly contested. This brings up two other aspects of the Word of God,

1. the Oral tradition
2. The Magesterium guided by the Holy Spirit as the authentic interpreter of Scripture and Tradition.

With out these two elements, as you see today in traditions which reject them, there can be no certitude of salvation nor any unity. God bless Amy,

 

[Amy1966]

Amy 1966,

I am not quite sure what your reply, quoting so much excellent Scripture, is about. I fully realise the converting power of God’s Holy Word Written. My point is that even if the preaching in a Catholic priest’s homily is poor, there is such a torrent of Scripture read at Mass, and in the rest of the Church’s liturgy as well, that God has ample opportunity for His Holy Spirit to work upon the assembled believers’ souls through God’s revealed and saving word. A bad Catholic homily that at least is too brief jto register much at all ust makes way that much more for the massive amounts of Scripture in the liturgy and for the free work of the Spirit also in the efficacy of the Holy Sacraments.

There is no real conflict between Scripture and Catholic worship – quite the contrary!

In a sectarian assembly (Baptist, Pentecostal, Cambellite, etc.) if the sermon is bad, there is almost no room for much of anything good soever, given how little Scripture reading there is in the freestyle services, especially now that C.C.M. music is displacing the good old gospel hymns that had real substance when they were not being merely sentimental (not all of it quite right in content, but positive overall).

Pax, Jerry Parker

Jerry,

It is the very reason why the Holy Spirit works through EACH individual in understand the Word of God; how else is one able to determine the good from the bad and from the ugly? We are told to pray for wisdom and understanding; why? This notion of a single group of “infallible” people being the only source of interpretation is contrary to the teaching of the Scripture and the work of the Holy Spirit in my honest opinion. This is easily shown in both the NT and the OT, but if one believes one cannot understand the Scripture on their own, then what incentive is there to try? Doesn’t really matter because God says even if one tries, yet has not the Holy Spirit, they cannot understand them anyway.

1 Corinthians 2
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; ***nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ***
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Only the Christian is able to understand exactly what the Holy Spirit is teaching through the Apostle Paul concerning how the Word of God is able to be understood. The “we” Paul mentions throughout are individual Christians.

I agree with you that the accurate teaching of the Word behind the pulpits is very difficult to find and growing in difficulty, but I am not surprised by this as the church and seminaries are infiltrated with non-Christians. Why I am convinced that it is up to each individual Christian to not only study, but to find those preachers that are faithful to the word and use all the tools God has provided to peruse Him through His Word. Christians need all the more be like the Bereans and see if what is taught is true and pray all the more for spiritual wisdom and discernment and take the responsibility and teach them to our children.

God bless you Pete and thanks for the post and the extra clarification.
Amy

 

[Amy1966]

I have been on CAF for over two years and don’t recall any Catholic stating that protestants weren’t Christians. Could you please inform us of these posts, where we can read them.

Try viewing through this subscription

are Catholics who are out of communion with the Church who might feel that way, but that would be a small minority and since they are not in communion with the Catholic Church, they don’t represent Catholics.

How is that defined by the Church?

mentioned the Word of God being the Bible, that is not what the Bible was saying, it was saying that the “Word of God came down from Heaven and became Incarnate”, it is speaking of Christ not the written word. There was no written word for over 300 years after Christ died.

See post #254 for your answer; I’m always amazed at how one can read a letter from Paul or Peter or the other writers and be so blind to statements like “read this letter to the entire church”. Does anyone read the Bible anymore? Are you God breathed? Are the Scriptures God breathed? Is the Christian part of God? Are the Scriptures part of God?

Please start reading the Early Church Fathers to see what the Church taught soon after our Lord died and Ascended into Heaven. It looks nothing like a protestant church.

Please begin reading the Bible and see what the earliest church fathers taught; the ones we know were Christians. Does the early church look like the contemporary Roman Catholic Church?

have made up your mind and that is fine, but you can’t push your beliefs on others, that includes your family. I am not implying that when you spoke to your parents about your new church that you were trying to convert them, but I find that most fundamentalist do just this. Only the Holy Spririt can convert a person. I would find it offensive if someone knowing I was Catholic would try to convert me.

Why would you find that offensive when you just said only the Holy Spirit can convert; either you believe that to be true or you do not. Plus, below you stated you would be content and at peace…confusing. However, I agree it is the work of the Holy Spirit to give sight to the blind concerning the gospel.

When a person does this, what they are really saying is that your not a Christian. I don’t know the circumstances in your home, but if this is what was happening, your family probably felt insulted.

I think you have my family confused with some other family. I will say that the gospel, the Scriptures, are “sharper than a two-edged sword” and Jesus said the gospel would cause division and hatred toward the messenger as it did to Him. Most “so-called-Christians” & many true Christians are scared of rejection by giving the “good news” and therefore never say a word and believe they are being loving by keeping quiet while they watch their friends or loved ones perish in their sins.

What was your reason for coming to a Catholic forum in the first place? We are here to defend our faith and welcome anyone who has a desire to know what the Catholic Church teaches.

If you have cut all your ties with the Church I personally would not feel the need to try to impose my views on others. I would be content and at peace with my decision.

God Bless

Bernadette

According to “Non-Catholic Religions” the purpose is “Comparing and contrasting beliefs”; I believe that is what is going on here; don’t you? I believe defending your faith is the apologetics area from what I see.

Enjoy you peace and contentment and may God bless you and those around you.

 

[Amy1966]

Amy,
We Catholics believe in adhering to the complete Word of God, which while the Bible forms the bedrock of the known teachings of Christ, it is not the complete Word of God. As St. John the Apostle and Evangalist says:

This Christian believes the Scriptures that are God-breathed are the only true revelation from God.

Think of the Bible as the core, immutable tradition of the Christian faith lovingly perserved and pulmigated by the Catholic Church now in it’s third millenium. But there is more, oh yes Amy there is more to the Word of God than the bible.

Many religions make that claim whether 50 years or 2000 years. The Bible has several warnings about adding or subtracting from the Scriptures.

Is the bible God Amy? Is the Christian God breathed and part of God? Is the Scripture God breathed and part of God?
crazzeto;6596552:

Did the Bible ever become flesh? And dwell among us?

Did Jesus utter the very words of God? Are the Scriptures the very voice of God? The Bible is that voice in a written form, but the words, which are what count, are the very words of God and words are not physical, but were spoken by the physical God-man Jesus Christ.

St. John’s Revelation we have:

The verse says “did”, not taught and you know that you are just plugging a sound bite. Given that Jesus healed thousands if not tens of thousands; I’m sure if it were all written in detail it would be enormous.

Notice the underlined bit that you minimized the the emphisis of the Bible, by word… or by Epistle… Notice how by word

takes prominance here. That is because Christianity was primarly an Oral tradition for the first few centuries of it’s existance, that’s right for the first ~400 years people were getting saved with out the benifit of having any bible at all… At best the Christians had a collection of Christian writings which no one really knew were inspired or not… Some core writings were generally accepted, others like Revelation or Hebrews were highly contested. This brings up two other aspects of the Word of God,

1. the Oral tradition
2. The Magesterium guided by the Holy Spirit as the authentic interpreter of Scripture and Tradition.

With out these two elements, as you see today in traditions which reject them, there can be no certitude of salvation nor any unity. God bless Amy, By word takes prominence over the written; since they are one in the same there is no dominance, they are equal according to Paul. Where is Magesterium and its evolved function(s) or the concept of Magesterium ever taught as doctrine by any of the NT or OT writers?

 

[Martyr225]

Hi guys,

I’m the OP chiming back in. My wife has convinced me to offer to lead a teen Bible study at my church. Does anyone have any suggestions as to good Catholic Bible study material for pre-teens and teens? I don’t think Scott Hahn’s material would work for pre-teens, but I could be wrong.

Again, I was hoping not to be the lone guy rolling the rock up the hill. Does the council of Bishops, or any bishop, think there’s a problem with having essentially nothing for pre-teens and teens?

I was originally talking about the lack of fellowship in Catholic churches and it dawned on me that one way we met other people in churches was through our kids. The church would have something for the little kids and parents got to meet other parents because our kids played with their kids, etc. I don’t see that in Catholic circles. Is there not a gap for the 11-14 crowd?

Thanks

 

[eucharisteo]

OP, I would love to start a youth bible class. But my wife of 21 years says she’s had all she can bear of that experience. So I am avoiding it, even though I loved it, in order to get along with her without overwhelming her. If we weren’t married I’d care less what she thought. So I have my own bible classes every night with my own children. She loves all the traditional Catholic events. I like most of them but know from experience that fellowship comes with exposing oneself with others and usually through children. Far too many Catholics think the Church is only supposed to be mature, and fail to see the wisdom of these other personal devotions that expose us to others. Some people get hung up on being “leader” and don’t seem to realize that they would do far better in their particular ministries if they made it more of a joint effort. For example, a leader should ask someone in the group with a good reputation and the ability to pray effectively at appointed times. That’s just one example. In our Protestant faith I’ve been asked to do the closing prayer many times and got used to being in that role. I even said the Lord’s Supper prayers for communion. I miss it, but obviously prefer the Eucharist.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Amy 1966,

**You wrote: ** Jerry, It is the very reason why the Holy Spirit works through EACH individual in understand the Word of God; how else is one able to determine the good from the bad and from the ugly? We are told to pray for wisdom and understanding; why?​

As I was having interruptions of computer access, Amy, so many others have overtaken me in dealing with what you have been writing, some quite well, that I won’t go into the various points that your reply to my earlier message brought up. However, I’ll just limit myself to reminding you that the Christian ought to exist and to think within the context of the Church and of its historic and living consensus. There is no end to “original” and new “takes” on what Holy Scripture says. However, we are reminded that no prophecy or other Scripture is of private interpretation, that it is possible for an individual, unstable and too stubborn, to wrest out of recognition what a passage of Holy Scripture means (2 St. Peter 1:20, 3:16), and so forth. The sectaries and even the magesterial Protestants have given ample demonstration of such endless chaos.

However, it is the Church itself that has authority, as “the pillar and the ground of the truth” (1 St. Tim. 3:16), not the individual’s private discernment, and the Catholic Church never has abandoned that principle to embrace private judgment of whatever individuals choose to believe. Sectaries get caught up in a whelter of objections to this, that, and the other of Catholic doctrine that they do not perceive how beautifully structured and balanced the Church’s teaching really is, systematic, learnèd, sane, with the context of history taken into account (and that history having been lived in the long institutional life of the Church) and how it accords with the Bible. I hope that someday you will be able to perceive this! Anyway, you have lots of Catholic folk willing to help you in this matter.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[Lazarette]

Martyr225,

Steve Ray has a Bible study
catholic-convert.com/resources/recommended/books/bible-study/

and DVDs:
steveraysstore.com/dvds.html

 

[mmsiciliana]

I can see you find pleasure in minimizing the Scriptures along with those that treasure them. While pretending to show some historic understanding of where the Scriptures actually came from as you contradicted yourself with the Scripture.

This is but just a few examples of numerous.

I do wonder when theses Epistles were written and if they were circulated in the period of the “early church”. I also wonder what Paul meant when he stated: "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions {DOCTRINES} which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.

LOL!! Did you actually read the first Scripture you posted? Look very carefully and you’ll see that the Gospel was spread by word of mouth and by the written documents, some of which would later become Scripture, but would not be totally compiled into the New Testament until almost 300 years after Jesus’ death. And who put the New Testament together? The Catholic Church.

 

[eucharisteo]

Martyr225,

Steve Ray has a Bible study
catholic-convert.com/resources/recommended/books/bible-study/

and DVDs:
steveraysstore.com/dvds.html

Yep, Steve Ray is a convert too and used to be quite anti-Catholic. I heard his bible study is pretty good. But I can’t speak for it personally.

 

[Cat]

Hi guys,

I’m the OP chiming back in. My wife has convinced me to offer to lead a teen Bible study at my church. Does anyone have any suggestions as to good Catholic Bible study material for pre-teens and teens? I don’t think Scott Hahn’s material would work for pre-teens, but I could be wrong.

Again, I was hoping not to be the lone guy rolling the rock up the hill. Does the council of Bishops, or any bishop, think there’s a problem with having essentially nothing for pre-teens and teens?

I was originally talking about the lack of fellowship in Catholic churches and it dawned on me that one way we met other people in churches was through our kids. The church would have something for the little kids and parents got to meet other parents because our kids played with their kids, etc. I don’t see that in Catholic circles. Is there not a gap for the 11-14 crowd?

Thanks

Make the first meeting more of a general fellowship time and discussion, and ask the teens what they are interested in. Then find a study that more-or-less matches what they suggest.

When my daughter was a teen, she was terribly interested in End Times, prophecies, the Rapture, and the book of Revelation. There are several excellent Catholic Bible studies on this topic. It would be a great study in the fall going into Advent. And a study like this would help the teens deal with questions about being “left behind.”

It would be good to let the teens have some say in the selection of their study topic.

One other suggestion I would make is to do some study of music. So many people on CAF claim that teens would like Gregorian chant and traditional Church music if they knew more about it. A lot of teens don’t even know that there is contemporary (rock) Catholic music. It might be interesting to try to do some “live” experiences of various kinds of Catholic music; e.g., visit a traditional schola rehearsal and allow the conductor to talk about traditional Catholic music. e.g., attend a concert by a Catholic rock band, etc. etc. (field trips!)