With all the scandal in the church

[on_the_hill]

You’re not “allegiant to the Magisterium”, you’re allegiant to Jesus Christ and his Church.

And yet I’m obligated to do what they tell me to do. If they say eating meat on Ash Wednesday is a sin, I’m not allowed to eat meat. If they declare a particular day is a Holy Day of Obligation, I have to go to Mass. If they say I’m not allowed to receive Communion if I divorce and remarry, then I’m not allowed to receive Communion.

 

[BoomerangToo]

I’m finding it pretty tough to feel optimistic about the RC church these days.

On the contrary, this is a very exciting time to be Catholic. Our Lord is getting ready to put the hammer down and purify His Church. It will be very interesting to see where this goes. We need to pray and hold on tight, it’s going to be a bumpy ride, but worth it! Come Holy Spirit! The devil will not win this one. Have faith!

This isn’t anything new. I’ve just found a book written by St. Peter Damian that shows how far back this goes.

Wow, that quote was from Peter Damian? How right-on he was! Then and now.

The problem is that the same body of leaders who tell me it’s a sin to eat meat on a Friday during Lent are the ones who are trawling for male prostitutes.

Do as they say, not as they do. Don’t let them shake you. We must hold them accountable. The tide is turning. WE are “the Church”, not just the men in the pointy hats. Their days are numbered. Hang on.

 

[Glennon_P]

I know…I know. I’m just having a really hard time reconciling my Catholicism with their hypocrisy, and it’s not getting any better. At all.

I feel the same way sometimes.

But then I remember to worry about the only thing I can really control - being the best Catholic that I can be. By showing the world what a good Catholic life looks like, you can help overcome the scandal given by these examples of what a bad Catholic life looks like.

Some days, it’s all we have to hang on to.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And yet I’m obligated to do what they tell me to do. If they say eating meat on Ash Wednesday is a sin, I’m not allowed to eat meat. If they declare a particular day is a Holy Day of Obligation, I have to go to Mass. If they say I’m not allowed to receive Communion if I divorce and remarry, then I’m not allowed to receive Communion.

Do you have a problem with any of this? Is it so hard to give up meat and do a not-very rigorous fast for one day (I give up meat every Friday), go to Mass on one day (I myself try to attend Mass every day because I want to be with Jesus and also help the Holy Souls), or observe the marriage laws of the Church?

The Church asks very little of most of us.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The purpose of a discussion forum is to discuss.
Otherwise, every response should be “Google it.”

Agree. There is nothing wrong with starting a new thread if you want to discuss something.

 

[JohnStrachan]

I left the RC church for a number reasons that I’ve mentioned here before. In my heart I still feel a deep yearning to reconcile with the church but find it difficult to in its brokenness. Surprisingly, we have comparatively few problems with abuse. We allow our clergy to marry and our women to be priests. The same gay sub-culture does not exist in the Anglican church. Whereas the RC church has >50% of their clergy being gay, it is much less in the Anglican church because it is difficult to conceal your sexuality. The RC church loses its moral compass when those in authority don’t have one themselves.

 

[Beryllos]

So much hand-wringing! Look on the bright side. When things can’t get worse, they are bound to get better. The Church is cleaning house, and there has never been a better time to be a Catholic.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Surprisingly, we have comparatively few problems with abuse.

Looks like you still have quite a few, and enough to be concerned about. I don’t see anything to cheer about in the below articles. There is also a realistic possibility that cases are covered up, as shown by the first article.

Church of England downplayed extent of child abuse allegations to protect its reputation, report finds

Anglican Communion sexual abuse cases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Teresa Cooper - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given that the Anglicans have fewer members and fewer clergy overall, it would also be normal for there to be fewer abusers.

In any event, this is a poor basis on which to pick a faith…any faith.
Religion is supposed to be about what you believe, not about whether a priest is committing a sin.
Neither of these faiths teaches that sexual abuse or other kinds of abuse are okay.

 

[Vouthon]

I sympathise with much of what you say, but I do feel that you are failing to differentiate between the sacred tradition of the church (from which our moral framework is derived) and the sometimes hypocritical churchmen - even, at times, grievously so - who are its repositories or rather upholders.

The ethical values that you cite, and the traditions, come from our history and the deposit of faith. Betrayals of the office and teaching authority do not negate the authority of that teaching in itself.

Nonetheless, I share every bit of your feeling at being pontificated to by clergy, often on seemingly minor things, who subsequently turn out to be committing serious moral wrongs. It’s utterly perverse and surely warrants the most severe divine wrath, which I feel has not even come yet, and when it does, will be devastating.

In the gospels, Jesus was murdered by the Jewish priesthood, which the Catholic priesthood is explicitly modelled after, what, with the Pope being our version of the Aaronic High Priest (indeed, our churches are designed in the fashion of Solomon’s Temple, with the Eucharistic Tabernacle standing in for the Torah’s holy of holies).

The demise of the Jewish clergy is a salutary warning to us from history, of how a profoundly clerical religion can undo itself. Caiaphas and Annas must have been convinced of the permanence of their institution. After all, the Temple cult with it’s sacrificial offerings was explicitly outlined in scripture.

And yes, I await the reminders in respect of, “but that was the Old Covenant, the New is the final dispensation that shall not end before the Second Coming”.

Should we really harbour such hubris, though? I believe the apostolic succession is divinely ordained and will persist (“gates of hell shall not prevail”), but much of the institutional power can be divested if God wills.

 

[Vouthon]

I would like to quote from a Doctor of the Church, namely St. Hildegard of Bingen’s Letter to the Clergy of Trier from Volume III of the Oxford Scholarship:

"… Hildegard to the Clerics

In response to the provost’s request, Hildegard sends the sermon she delivered at Trier, warning them of God’s vengeance because of the corruption among the church officials.

The law is neglected by spiritual people, who disdain to teach and do good works. Both the teachers and the prelates are asleep: they have abandoned justice. Therefore, I heard this voice from heaven, saying: O daughter of Sion, your crown will fall from your head, your cloak of increasing riches will shrink, your numbers will be forcibly reduced, and you will be banished from one place to another. Many cities and monasteries will be wrenched away by powerful individuals, and princes will say, “Let us take away from them that iniquity which, through them, is overwhelming the whole world.” And I saw and I heard that all these dangers and griefs will befall regions and monasteries because they have turned aside from obedience and other precepts of the law. And I saw that even amidst sins of this kind there are some who will cling to God and will sigh unto Him, just as in the time of Elijah [cf. I Kings 18.18ff].

Afterward, the justice and judgment of God will arise, and the people will know the discipline and fear of God. There will also be good and just individuals among the spiritual people, who, nevertheless, will remain few in numbers because of their humility, but who, like the hermits, will turn back to the first dawn.

And, at that time, people will no longer cling to the foolishness of lasciviousness like children; they will arise and prophesy, and they will gather together all things old and new from the Scriptures and all that has been uttered through the Holy Spirit, and they will adorn their understanding of these things as if with a necklace set with precious jewels. Through their influence and that of other wise people, many of the laity will become virtuous and will live saintly lives.

This zeal for sanctity will not wither quickly, but will last for a long time, for all these things will come to pass because of that earlier degenerate time. For Christ will accomplish these things, who sees in them the beginning and end of his works; in this way, he reins in the errant people. For he will establish the prophets first to be the head, the wise to be the eyes, the teachers to be the mouth, just as all things came into being by the Word of God [cf. John 1.3]. And, then, because the rest of the body, that is, the faithful, will do good works, as I have said, God will place their head in his lap, that is to say, he will reveal the meaning of prophecy to them. Then, princes will turn their harps and drums into sounds of sorrow, just as the sons of Israel had done when they were led into captivity [cf. Ps 136.2–3].

After these things take place, all things spiritual will be strengthened, with no weariness or flaw, and people will look into the eye of the Living Book."

 

[goout]

I’m finding it pretty tough to feel optimistic about the RC church these days. With Cardinals and long-time Bishop’s being defrocked and the leadership of the church responding so poorly to the abuse of minors, it is hard to believe it is a credible institution. Homosexuality is a festering sore and so little is done to remedy it. it’s time to clean house, even out those who are bring the church to ill repute.

What did you expect when you came to follow Christ?
Is the cross for Christ, but not for his followers?

We are not called to wait for the Church to become more holy, we are called to be holy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Good points you make about the priesthood.

Another point that is being lost in all this is that it’s highly unlikely that every single priest and bishop is hypocritical and corrupt.
I personally know, and have known, many priests who were from all indications good, holy men, and about whom no whiff of scandal has arisen during their lives or after their deaths. I was just reading yesterday about a deceased Bishop who adopted a zero-tolerance policy in his diocese against sex abuse back in the 80s, a sort of “early adopter” if you will. We never hear about the guys who tried to do things right. It’s like they just don’t exist.

Humans also have shades of gray. It may be that a particular Bishop handled the abuse in his diocese poorly, but he served very well in other ways. I would go so far as to say that I don’t think Pope John Paul II handled the sex abuse crisis in the Church very well at all. But he was a great Pope in many other ways. He accomplished great things with respect to Communism. He inspired many people to live better lives, and he is undoubtedly a great saint. In no way would I call him a hypocrite even though he wasn’t perfect in his responses.

I often feel that people who point to the sexual abuse scandal as a reason why they’re leaving the Catholic Church are having some other underlying issue and trying to find excuses to justify leaving. It’s not like any place else they go is going to be free of hypocrisy and abuse.

 

[on_the_hill]

on_the_hill:

And yet I’m obligated to do what they tell me to do. If they say eating meat on Ash Wednesday is a sin, I’m not allowed to eat meat. If they declare a particular day is a Holy Day of Obligation, I have to go to Mass. If they say I’m not allowed to receive Communion if I divorce and remarry, then I’m not allowed to receive Communion.

Do you have a problem with any of this? Is it so hard to give up meat and do a not-very rigorous fast for one day (I give up meat every Friday), go to Mass on one day (I myself try to attend Mass every day because I want to be with Jesus and also help the Holy Souls), or observe the marriage laws of the Church?

The Church asks very little of most of us.

I have a problem where they declare minor infractions as ‘mortal’ sins. I have a problem with their hypocrisy.

Comedian Jackie Mason told a joke. In Judaism, it is as much a sin to eat leavened bread on the Sabbath as it is to commit adultery–“I have a friend who’s done both. He says there is no comparison.”

 

[on_the_hill]

I personally know, and have known, many priests who were from all indications good, holy men, and about whom no whiff of scandal has arisen during their lives or after their deaths.

No disagreement from me on this. Actions taken by our pastor are described in the Pennsylvania report–he did the right thing to help a victim, and in doing so disobeyed his diocesan ‘supervisor.’ He’s one of the good guys and I’ll always respect him for it.

 

[Dorothy]

We need to focus on our own imperfections and allow the Lord to sanctify us. When we do that the Light of Christ shines brighter in us and the darkness will recede.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have a problem where they declare minor infractions as ‘mortal’ sins.

Like what?

The Church has not declared anything a “mortal” sin because “mortal” is dependent on the intention of the person committing it, which is not going to be the same for every person on earth. It notes that some sins are grave matter. As in, serious. If you are concerned that a grave matter sin you have committed is possibly mortal, you’re supposed to discuss it with a priest.

The vast majority of things the Church categorizes as “grave”, such as abortion or fornication, are indeed grave matter, not just some little thing. Indeed, I’m having a hard time thinking of a “little thing” the Church has categorized as grave matter. We don’t call it grave matter to eat leavened bread or whatever. What grave matter sin do you think we should be able to commit without its being a big deal?

If you have a problem with how the Church defines sin, that’s not due to purported hypocrisy of clergy. It’s due to your own self not wanting to agree with the definition of sin.

Whether the bishops are saints or sinners doesn’t have any relation to you and your own sins and whether you accept that something is a sin or not.

The bishops being hypocrites or not does not give you some excuse to commit grave matter sins. If they were all saints, you’d likely have the same problem with not wanting to follow a rule.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

No, the Catholic Church is not a “distraction now from Jesus”.
Catholics believe it is the only way to salvation.
It is also where you get to experience Jesus most fully in His Real Presence.

Are you Catholic?

 

[Londoner]

Do you really not believe that the Anglican Church has a problem with child (and adult) sexual abuse?

Let’s take the case of Peter Ball. He was a diocesan bishop, no less, who committed absolutely horrific abuse, with appalling consequences, under cover of spiritual direction. The abuse was covered up by many public figures including his brother, also a diocesan bishop, and the archbishop of Canterbury himself. The archbishop of York, meanwhile, covered up abuse committed by a former Dean of Manchester Cathedral. Police were poised to charge Archbishop Trevor Huddleston with four counts of indecent assault until the charges were spiked by the director of public prosecutions. The archbishop actually admitted committing the acts alleged, but disputed that they were indecent.

In general, look at the case of the Diocese of Chichester. As well as having a former suffragan bishop who is a convicted sex offender, something like ten clergy from the diocese are now convicted paedophiles. The diocesan bishop, Eric Kemp, allowed convicted clergy to remain in ministry roles and always made clear that the diocese’s chief concern was the welfare of the accused. His successor said that abuse was ‘normalised’ within the diocese, while a suffragan admitted that the diocese had a paedophile ring.

Another paedophile ring operated in a single parish, St Bartholomew, Sydenham, Diocese of Southwark (Google for reports of multiple convictions). Many cathedrals have had CSA scandals centred on their choirs/choir schools, e.g. Ripon, Gloucester, St Paul’s, Rochester, Wells, Durham, Lincoln, and Bradford. The former head verger of Southwark Cathedral was found not guilty but admitted giving alcohol to a minor and taking him to his bedroom “to play computer games”.

To give the bigger picture, in 2016 the Church of England was addressing more than 3,300 cases of alleged abuse. To take one example, Timothy Storey, former ordinand and former youth leader at St Michael’s Chester Square, is serving 15 years for raping two teenage girls (also covered up for years).

Finally, look up Kendall House. It was a Church-run home for girls where abuse took place on an almost industrial scale and to a degree not out of place in a gothic horror, e.g. girls stripped naked, drugged to the point of later giving birth to babies with birth defects, put in straitjackets, and given electric shocks.

 

[Gab123]

There were, are, and always will be liars, hypocrites, adulterers, perverts, traitors, and all sorts of scoundrels among both the clergy and the laity. But among the wicked you will always have the holy and those being sanctified by God’s grace, and Christ’s promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church and never be conquered by hell.

These days, the phenomenon of instant worldwide communication with people making a business out of spreading gossip, scandal and calumny, it is easy to think that there is only perversion in the Church.

One has to realize that Church on earth will always have the wolves and the weeds; the false teachers, the mediocre, the lukewarm, the lazy, the indifferent and disobedient children; those whose faith is in the intellect but not in the heart, and those who confuse religiosity with sanctity. But God’s grace is always working on those who are open to God; in the end, many will be transformed and saved while others will fall away and be lost.

150 years from now everyone living on earth today will be dead and gone, but the Church will still be, teaching the truth amidst different circumstances and historical events despite those who have always tried to destroy her from within the ranks. Everyone has judgment day awaiting them; our only job on earth is to be sanctified and to spread the light and love of Christ in this dark world.

“the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also . The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ” Matt. 13:24-30

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Nothing that you say is actually true.

Wrong. I posted the correct teaching of the Church, which participants on CAF need to respect, even if they personally don’t agree. If you wish to post any more, please review the TOS for the forum.

The fact that humans commit terrible sins - as they have been doing since the creation of humankind - is not a valid reason to walk away from the Real Presence of Jesus in God’s one true Church. We should be working for the reform of the church and working hard on not committing sins and not facilitating the sins of others, not just going off on some “me and Jesus and who needs a church” trip, like you seem to be suggesting.