With all these objections about Mary by Protestants, wouldn't you think Jesus

[Della]

Le Cracquere:

Now, many Protestants may feel a little constrained in their attitude towards Mary, but stand in their shoes for a second (or a second more, given the personal history you cite). If you have an essentially Protestant view of Marian devotions, you might reasonably want to be a little circumspect–not because Mary deserves anything less than honour and love, but because the Catholic example suggests (again, to a Protestant) that an ordinate respect and devotion towards her can easily and precipitously morph into an inordinate sort of devotion that brings creation and Creator too close for orthodoxy, and is neither fitting nor, ultimately, respectful or loving towards her.

As I said, I once felt this way too, until I looked into the Church’s teachings about Mary for myself. I read the reasons behind each of them because Mary’s place in the Church was my biggest stumblingblock. I found them not only reasonable, but helpful in seeing Our Lord in a fuller way than I had before. The teachings about Mary are not meant primarily to exalt her but to support teachings about her Son, such as the hypostatic union, his own sinlessness, his teachings about our relationship between us and others, his promises that each of us has a place with him and the Father, etc. No Catholic thinks of Mary as a goddess or a substitute for Jesus–no Catholic who knows what his Church teaches about her does, anyway.

Della:

The real issue here isn’t Mary’s prerogatives, but the Church’s authority to decide matters of faith and morals.

Among Catholics, sure. But since this thread specifically deals with Protestant views on Marian doctrines (see title), appealing to 19th-century Vatican pronouncements on the subject is sort of begging the question.

No, actually. The date of the proclamation really has nothing to do with the validity of the belief in the Immaculate Conception. It was believed long before the 19th century, but there were objections to it that needed to be answered in order for it to be proclaimed as a dogma, not as an ordinary teaching. For instance, the USA was consecrated to Mary under her title of Immaculata before the dogma was proclaimed. If it had not been believed before the proclamation making it a dogma, then there would have been no such consecration, nor any other parishes or Catholic institutions dedicated to Mary under that title up until then.

 

[BrownR]

I want to recommend the following book for both Catholics and Protestants alike who are interested in understanding each others perspective on Mary, here. It’s a great book, and probably the most “objective” collaboration between a Protestant and a Catholic. Honestly, I thought a few of the Catholic arguments could have been better argued or articulated, but it’s extremely fair and the Protestant is given equal time to rebut or defend various points.

I’m a life long Protestant currently in RCIA, facilitating a formal conversion. I had a huge problem with Mary and it was initially one of my biggest hurdles. This book helped guide me in the right direction, and I can honestly say that my newfound understanding of Mary and the saints has transformed my prayer life and feeling of “connectedness” with the entire Church of Christ when I pray. Rarely does a day go by that I don’t ask for Mary’s intercession on my behalf. Ironically, I was discussing some of the finer points of this with my mother other day who has come from being very anti-Catholic to curious about Catholicism. (She’s attending the next RCIA meeting with me! I would have never imagined… ) I can remember my prayer life before understanding the full communion of Saints as a very isolated and ultra personal experience. It was like a single line of communication between myself and God. Some Protestants might argue that this deepens their relationship with God, but I always felt very isolated and alone, disconnected from the rest of all Christians . It’s only after I have started to really understand the true “bride of Christ” and communion of saints as not only extending throughout this world, but into the next, that I have truly come to understand a united host of saints and Mary who are actively interested and involved in my spiritual life. They rejoice along with the angels when I succeed and intercede for me when I am in need. When I pray, I no longer feel alone or disconnected from the rest of the Church, but I feel like my family in Christ in heaven is listening in and actively aware of my petitions and praise to Christ the King. They rejoice and echo my praises, and intercede for me when I am in need. It’s a beautiful new concept for me and I feel as thought I’ve only scratched the surface. Ironically, the rosary which I once considered to be tantamount to “Mary worship” has become one of the most truly Christ centered prayers that I know. I reaffirm and meditate on the mysteries of Christ each and every time I pray it, which is usually daily.

I recommend “The Secret of the Rosary”, by St. Louis de Montfort for anyone looking to deepend their understanding of the Rosary and just how Christ centered it can be.

Anyway, this whole discussion just reminded me of my own experience thus far, and I thought I’d share it. I think what Catholics need to understand is that Protestants reject these teachings because they feel it detracts from the omnipotence and sufficiency of God (and you have to respect that to some degree, even if you disagree with it). Personally, I think it’s a very carefully coiffed theological construct to psychologically and religiously justify schism with the Church over many similarly related teachings. After all, how could a teaching that attempts to emphasize the omnipotence and sufficiency of God, really be that bad? In the end, I feel it separates Christians from each other, and makes their relationship with God an almost “too personal” affair where they are hardly aware of anyone else’s prayer life except their own and have no knowledge that anyone else in heaven could ever be interested in their petitions or praises to Christ. “Prayer” become ultra personal, along with most of the things communicated between the Christian and God which just so happens to involve the confession of sins. As a Protestant, I was hardly ever aware of the sins or prayers of my fellow Christians unless I directly asked. Confession was never actively taught and sins were something to be confessed alone between myself and God. The Church was never aware of what my sins were. There was never that accountability or interest in my personal struggles or failures as a Christian, again, unless I purposely made an effort to make them aware of these things. Generally, you won’t hear a great deal of sermons on “confessing one’s sins” in most Protestant Churches based on my experience as a Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical, and then Episcopal.

(next post)

 

[BrownR]

I was attempting to explain a few of these nuances to my mother other day and she very piously said “Well, I don’t really understand why any Christian needs the intercession of “saints” or “Mary”. God is all sufficient and that time could be better spent in prayer with Him.” I simply smiled and said “Mom, I respect your understanding of the omnipotence of God, but remember this fact next time you are taking time to ask for prayer from friends, family, or Church members. After all, God is much more sufficient than all of us, and couldn’t that time spent in prayer requests, be better spent in prayer with God?” She thought about it for a few moments and said “I see your point.”.

P.S. If you are a Protestant, don’t feel shy about reading that first book link I sent. It’s not a “pro Catholic” book at all, and it might even strengthen your own apologetic defense against Marian theology depending on what you get out of it. If nothing else, it will deepen your understanding of the Catholic teachings about Mary. You will at least learn to better appreciate the Catholic viewpoint, and perhaps even respect this belief of your brothers and sisters in Christ. Regardless of whether it changes your beliefs, I think you’ll see that Catholics venerate Mary “because of Christ” in most regards, and that Mary truly can bring lost souls to the saving Grace of Jesus. I’ll let the book explain that to a greater degree. It’s probably the only book that a Catholic and a Protestant could ever “agree” on in light of the subject matter.

In Christ. -Brown

 

[Abira]

that book covers pretty much every issue and problem I have with catholicism… I think I might get a copy.

Thanks, S

 

[Sixtus]

To be fair to the Protestants, many are naively following old bigotted teachings about ‘catholics worshipping Mary’. This of course is not true but it is surprising how many Protestants I have spoken to, who hold this view.

More alarming is the number who express concern that we ‘bow down and worship statues as graven images’. I have belonged to many catholic communities in many different churches. I am yet to meet a catholic who worships a statue but there we are. That is the sort of prejudice that leads ordinary folk to reject Christ’s Mother and our Mother Mary.

 

[BrownR]

that book covers pretty much every issue and problem I have with catholicism… I think I might get a copy.

Thanks, S

I noticed that you can’t see the table of contents on Amazon, so I thought I’d post it so you don’t have to piece it together from the reader comments.

1. I Stand Alone on the Word of God - The Biblical Evidence about Mary
2. God’s Mother? - Holy Mary, Mother of God
3. All in Favor - The Virgin Birth
4. Once a Virgin, Always a Virgin? - The Perpetual Virginity of Mary
5. Whom Did Mary Marry? - “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”
6. Woman and Serpent, Take 2 - The Immaculate Conception
7. Was Mary Raptured? - The Glorious Assumption
8. Revelation Woman - Apparitions of the Virgin Mary
9. How Do You Solve a Prolem Like Maria? - The Veneration of Mary
10. Worry Beads - The Rosary
11. There Is a Redemer - Co-Redeemer, Mediatrix, and Advocate?
12. Our Lady or Your Lady? - Summary and Conclusion

The book is primarily written in debate style format with each person taking turns either presenting opening arguments, posing counter arguments and rebuttals, or presenting closing arguments. They each take turns with opening and closing arguments so it’s a very fair presentation. One of the things I appreciated most in the book was the level of respect each man had for the other. If you decide to purchase it, I’d be very interested in knowing your thoughts after reading it! God bless.

 

[Abira]

lol thanks Brown…

I think that literally is a list of everything I get all het up about. … but not necessarily in my ‘het up’ order lol

S

 

[apophasis]

With all these objections about Mary by Protestants, wouldn’t you think Jesus would be upset. How would you feel if someone insult your own mother?

I would be very upset. So, please I ask the Protestants for being so Anti-Mary. She is Jesus’ mother. Give her some respect.

I do not know of ANY Protestants who insult Mary.

But you need to know that it is just as “insulting,” or disrespectful to say something “good” about a person that is not true, as it is to say something bad and is not true.

 

[Della]

I do not know of ANY Protestants who insult Mary.

There are many who insult her by claiming she not only sinned, but interferred with her Son’s ministry and had to be corrected by him on various occasions. I don’t know what denomination you are in, but in the ones I was involved in for 20 years, I certainly heard things worse than even this. Sad, truly sad!

But you need to know that it is just as “insulting,” or disrespectful to say something “good” about a person that is not true, as it is to say something bad and is not true.

If you are alluding to Catholic teaching about Mary then you will be relieved to hear that we don’t teach/believe any good things about Mary that aren’t true.

 

[levi86]

they [protestants] treat her as they would any other person in a way

And yet you don’t talk to her, or ask for her prayers as you would any other person?

 

[HailMary]

I love Mary and I hope you to too.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1643780&postcount=14
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1643781&postcount=15
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1643785&postcount=16

For my fellow Catholics:
when speaking about Mary to someone who isn’t really open to hearing anything about her, just say the following
“If she’s good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for me” ~ Fr. Corapi

And leave it at that.

God Bless

 

[apophasis]

There are many who insult her by claiming she not only sinned, but interferred with her Son’s ministry and had to be corrected by him on various occasions. I don’t know what denomination you are in, but in the ones I was involved in for 20 years, I certainly heard things worse than even this. Sad, truly sad!

These aren’t insults. No more than saying that I sinned and must be corrected.

If you are alluding to Catholic teaching about Mary then you will be relieved to hear that we don’t teach/believe any good things about Mary that aren’t true.

It’s insulting to her when men claim for her perpetual virginity and deny her her other children. It’s insulting when men claim her to be sinless when she herself adored God her Savior. It’s insulting to her when men exalt her to Queen status in Heaven when no Divine coronation was ever recorded. Such things, dear Della, ARE insulting to her since there is no Divinely revealed proof of ANY of these claims predicated of her by men. This is what is sad, truly sad.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

These aren’t insults. No more than saying that I sinned and must be corrected.It’s insulting to her when men claim for her perpetual virginity and deny her her other children. It’s insulting when men claim her to be sinless when she herself adored God her Savior. It’s insulting to her when men exalt her to Queen status in Heaven when no Divine coronation was ever recorded. Such things, dear Della, ARE insulting to her since there is no Divinely revealed proof of ANY of these claims predicated of her by men. This is what is sad, truly sad.

You just said a few post earlier that protestant don’t insult the Mother of Christ. Yet you just did.

Ignore Truth while its staring at you, then back up the idea that you opinions are above God’s teaching by acting on it. Sound like Protestantism…

You succeeded in insulting the Mother of Christ and the Bride of Christ, The True Church of Christ, in the same misguided opinion.

sad, truly sad.

 

[Abira]

Ignore Truth while its staring at you, then back up the idea that you opinions are above God’s teaching by acting on it. Sound like Protestantism…

Do you believe that protestantim involves feeling that your opinions are above Gods?

I agree with a lot of the things said… It is all I’ve ever been taught and it is harder to accept when there is no tradition of praying to saints in my church… (to answer the earlier post: I have never prayed TO anyone that is dead…and very rarely prayed FOR anyone who has died so it is a harder pill to swallow)… and then all the titles such as queen, omnipotent, co-redemptrix etc etc… It makes the idea inaccessible to some and even though there are a lot of issues I am still unsure of …

Catholics must accept that there is something real which protestans object to, and that it isn’t just them being insulting…or imagining things. That is not the intention, it is the reverse as the last poster was trying to say.

They feel as if they are defending her honour and humility by giving her quiet respect in the same way Cathlics feel they are defending her by giving her the exact opposite.

Do you think this will ever be a resolved debate?

 

[gardenswithkids]

Originally Posted by Della

Pardon me, but they are indeed insults to both Jesus and His mother. He corrected and chided the hypocritcal pharasees, but He was compassionate to sinners. As you say she was a sinner, why then wouldn’t He be compassionate in His correction of her? As she was His mother, why wouldn’t He make such corrections in private instead of publicly rebuking her? Why? Even if Mary sinned, (which I don’t believe she did) why would Jesus treat His mother in such a disrespectful manner?

*Maybe because some Chirstians badly misinterpret scripture when they think Mary interfeared with Jesus ministry. Read Luke 8:21 My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.": or Mk 3:33-35 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. 34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” Now compare those to Luke 1:38 “Mary said,’ Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.’” *Mary wasn’t interfearing with Jesus’ ministry–she heard the word of God and did the will of the Father–hence she became Jesus mother just as He said those who hear and do become His mother and brothers! Jesus wasn’t correcting her, but pointing to her example.

It’s insulting to her when men claim for her perpetual virginity and deny her her other children. It’s insulting when men claim her to be sinless when she herself adored God her Savior.

To my way of thinking, you have an odd concept of insults. Even* if* Catholics are wrong, I’d hardly call these things insults. Virginity is an insult you say? (We don’t deny she has other children–some Catholics actually consider themselves to be her children. ) You think is an insult for us to believing God truly saved her from sin? Even if you believe Catholics are wrong about those things, I simply don’t understand how you conclude these things are insults.

It’s insulting to her when men exalt her to Queen status in Heaven when no Divine coronation was ever recorded.

Revelations 12:1,5* A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with a moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.*

I’ll get off my soap box now. I don’t think the point of this thread was to debate if Catholics are right or wrong about the scriptures or about Mary, but to ask some Protestants to stop the blatent insults about her. Some don’t even understand how what they write can be offensive. Father forgive us, we don’t know what we do.

 

[rr1213]

I’ll get off my soap box now. I don’t think the point of this thread was to debate if Catholics are right or wrong about the scriptures or about Mary, but to ask some Protestants to stop the blatent insults about her. Some don’t even understand how what they write can be offensive. Father forgive us, we don’t know what we do.

You think because Protestants don’t believe the Marian doctrines that this is somehow an insult to Mary? Like most Protestants, I don’t think that Mary remained ever Virgin, was without sin, and was bodily assumed into heaven, but this doesn’t mean that I am insulting Mary. Mary is the Mother of God, forever blessed, and is a Saint in Heaven as we speak. Let’s not confuse differences in doctrine with “insults” to Mary, because they are not the same thing.

 

[gardenswithkids]

What, you think because Protestants don’t believe the Marian doctrines that this is somehow an insult to Mary? Let’s not confuse differences in doctrine with “insults” to Mary (whether by Protestants or Catholics) because they are not the same thing.

No, I fully believe that it is possible to disagree with Catholics about Mary without being insulting. But I think that it’s very difficult for some of them.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Do you believe that protestantim involves feeling that your opinions are above Gods?

The short answer is no.

What I can’t understand is; why when God founded a Church on Christ would other people choose to oppose parts of it?

I do believe that most non catholics hate the Church for the half-truths and misinformation fed to them from people like themselves that have no idea what the Church truely teaches, nor do they care (for whatever the reason). The blind inturn do lead the blind to more blindness.

 

[JIMMY68]

I agree with the above people.

**I’m protestant at the moment **

Abira-

Does this mean you are in state of conversion to Catholicism…“at the moment”? What’s driving this need for more? A rhetorical question.

I’ll continue to pray for you and all our separated brethern. This thread is awesome, and so full of truth. God Bless and Keep you.

“Catholicism, too good to be true, too hard to live”-Dr. Scott Hahn.

 

[servus]

With all these objections about Mary by Protestants, wouldn’t you think Jesus would be upset. How would you feel if someone insult your own mother?

I would be very upset. So, please I ask the Protestants for being so Anti-Mary. She is Jesus’ mother. Give her some respect.

What and if, when we finally meet Mary (at the ressurection) she is dishonored by the Catholic veneration of her, and exalted and elated by the Protestants exaltion of Jesus? “Whatever He says, do it” and what did Jesus say? Did Jesus want us to go directly to God through him? or to him through Mary? Jesus said “…no one comes to the Father, except through me”. And what did the Apostles say? “There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus”

Protestants do not disrespect Mary they repect and love her, just as we would respect any of our deceased loved ones. In fact, at my Church we are having a class for women which uses Mary as an example of godliness.