With the pope against the homoheresy

[VeritasLuxMea]

Veritas,

The word is being used in a way other than what you say indicating that the world may not see you definition as always applicable.

I’m sorry that this thread has devolved as it has. I apologize about that.

I merely wish to understand why it is not possible to expose alleged evil deeds while being respectful in our language at the same time?

 

[rossum]

I’m sorry that this thread has devolved as it has. I apologize about that.

I merely wish to understand why it is not possible to expose alleged evil deeds while being respectful in our language at the same time?

Indeed. Martin Luther was heterosexual, but Protestantism is not labelled “heteroheresy”.

rossum

 

[buffalo]

Indeed. Martin Luther was heterosexual, but Protestantism is not labelled “heteroheresy”.

rossum

Probably because he wasn’t pushing the “gay” lifestyle.

 

[rossum]

Probably because he wasn’t pushing the “gay” lifestyle.

He got married so he was pushing the “straight” lifestyle. Heteroheresy indeed.

rossum

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

He got married so he was pushing the “straight” lifestyle. Heteroheresy indeed.

rossum

But his heterosexuality was not a heretical idea, but that homosexual acts are morally permissible is heretical.

Homoheresy makes sense Heteroheresy doesn’t.

 

[quiet52]

Just FYI, the term “homomafia” was not coined by Catholic clergy, and has been in use for a number of years in some of the European nations.
For years, homosexual activists have been doing all they can do to muzzle ministers who preached about the immorality of homosexual behaviors, including filing lawsuits against them. As a group these activists have been called the homomafia because of the coercive tactics they have used against churches and against those who publicly fought legislation against their agendas. They might not physically murder people as the stereotypically Sicilian or Chicago mafia did, but they have tried to murder reputations, and the values which righteous people have courageously defended. For example, there was a court case in Sweden in 2005 in which a preacher was ultimately acquitted, after much financial suffering and other persecution by the homomafia: akegreen.org/pre-refs/4-29e.htm

Here is the full report by the Polish priest, who loves God and our Lord’s holy Church, and who hates sin:

With the Pope Against the Homoheresy (Father Dariusz Oko, Ph.D.)
churchmilitant.tv/documents/vort-2013-02-22.pdf

some excerpts:

…The Holy See … has given us a clear sign, a direction on how such problems should be solved. Concealing the behaviour of dishonest persons, which will sooner or later be exposed anyway, destroys the authority of the Church…

…In our struggle for the Church of Jesus Christ, we must not be misled by arguments like: “The Church is our mother, and one must not say bad things about one’s mother”. Such words are often heard from those who have hurt their mother the most, who have
made her seriously ill, and now refuse to begin the treatment. If the best mother of all is sick, to treat her effectively we need the best possible tools and the best, most accurate diagnosis possible. Thus, we must know about the illness and talk about it…

…The Church has been created as the most wonderful, most beautiful community of love and kindness, of believers living in peace with the Lord and with one another. We must not allow our greatest treasure to be destroyed. Let us be confident and peaceful. Normal, honest people are the overwhelming majority. They only need to be properly informed, mobilized and unified in action. It was indeed the public fight against the social structures of sin, against the Pharisees, that was one of the most important areas of Christ’s activity. Every truth, even that which is the most difficult, should lead us to work for the better, to struggle for the wellbeing of man and the Church. Despite all sin and weakness, the best, the most beautiful thing we have is the Church…

(Father Dariusz Oko, Ph.D., With the Pope Against the Homoheresy, Krakow, Poland, April 2012)

------------------------------
“Take no part in the fruitless works of darkness; rather expose them, for it is shameful even to mention the things done by them in secret; but everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.” (Ephesians 5:11-13)

 

[NeedImprovement]

Firstly, “catholic news” is not a source for accurate news, any more than Al Jazeera arabic edition, or Fox News, or Huffington Post. Each has a ideology to push.

Surveys of priests show an approximately 15% admission of homosexual orientation. Young priests report an approximately 23% homosexual orientation in anonymous surveys. I rounded to 25% as the upward limit, since it seems fair to assume under reporting, given the Church’s opinion on the topic. It might be more realistic to predict much larger numbers, in that sense.

But there is a larger problem. Over the past century, Catholic membership has declined only 1% worldwide as a percentage of population. But, when you look at “educated” countries, and when you look at the past decade, rather than the past century, the rate of decline is rather remarkable.

I have a sense, but no proof of course, that part of this phenomenon is the Church’s pelvic fascination in recent times.

Which surveys ? Would you have some links handy to support the figures cited in the 2nd paragraph ? Also, to your post before that, it might be worth scrutinizing that other figure of 4-5% ; Studies can be flawed and only represent core samples. I’ve seen that same figure reported as low as 2.8% (and also inflated beyond the figure you propose)- it’s difficult to nail down exactly. Homosexual “orientation” can actually be a nebulous term at best when discussing the hard facts of morality.

 

[NeedImprovement]

How is it we are discussing terminology rather than the real issue?

A little overdue, but surely time to post this question again I .


. . . been offline for roughly 30 hours , and when I came back I barely recognized the thread.:doh2: It does happen a lot in the forums though - where, when we start getting to the meat of the matter on these types of issues , and then suddenly the accusations start flying, then bickering and . . . then , somehow , in some mysterious magical way, . . . the thread goes off on a tangent - most of the time to never get fully back on track , or to be closed or pulled by the mods because someone has whipped it into something it was never intended to be.

I resent that.
Y’know , we never used to have to call “straight” straight - “normal” is the word which used to suffice.
But, alas, how true it is that

Deflection. Always make an issue of tone or terms that way it deflects from the serious issue.

And I’m also offended , when after sometimes contributing so many hours of reading,research (combined with prayer) to post for others concerned, on a subject so central to the well-being of the family and subsequently the well-being of society in general , one or two people decide its time to visit the thread and show us the latest gadget they’ve bought from their friendly neighborhood flamethrower salesman. .

I use the terms gay militants, gay activists, homosexual lobby and homosexual activists to identify the group who have devised the strategy for undermining the family and society – for the same group who tries, against the will of the majority , to ram a sexual distortion – legislated by some slight- of -hand, down our throats in their attempt to coerce us into embracing it , and this same group which has no shame in committing menticide on children as young as 5 years old; albeit totally against the will of their parents.

The perspective on the moral aspects of homosexuality according to Father John Hardon , S.J., should determine 3 levels : homosexual tendencies, homosexual attraction, and active homosexuality.

So when I used the term homosexual lobby or* gay militants* , am I “demeaning an entire group”, am I “demeaning” every single child of God to be considered relative to the levels Fr. Hardon recommends ?

No.

Furthermore, a considerable number of people who identify themselves as active homosexuals, with homosexual attraction, and/or homosexual tendencies don’t agree with what the homosexual lobby are doing. So far from “demeaning an entire group”, I am rather, extracting from that/those group(s), for the purpose of identifying one of the causes, a much smaller group ; contrary to the accusation leveled.

If the question is being asked, “Who lit this fire ?” – the answer is not “The match” ; it’s “The person or persons holding the match” . . . nothing complicated or “hateful” about it.

 

[pnewton]

They sexually assaulted minors. PERIOD.

Without the work of the media, they would have continued sexually assaulting minors.

Speculative history is never knowable. I do believe the actions taken based by the bishops based on the homosexual nature of the problem did more to solve the problem than anything the media did.

If for you, the real villain in this case is the media or homosexuality writ large,

I never said the media is a villian. I just do not think journalism is heroic, as a rule.

You have a point about heterosexual rape, but only if fixing blame is more important than prevention. If prevention is a goal, then the response needs to be specific to the specific problem. “PERIOD” does nothing but place an end to understanding and limit the effectiveness of solutions.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Critique of WITH THE POPE AGAINST THE HOMOHERESY , Part 1 of 3

I apologize to anyone who’s curiosity is too piqued because I won’t be providing links (maybe one) and will be withholding the name of the person in question , but if you copy and paste any of the quotes provided, into your search engines you’ll easily find the articles which they come from. Eventually, the name will become obvious, but I just don’t see any point in repeating over and over again in print, the name of someone already mentioned in the OP’s linked article, and of someone who has already answered for and admitted his offences. His name had been common news here for about 3 years. It hurts some of our members just to have to read this stuff again and again. That being said, the article posted at the beginning of this thread needs some constructive criticism.

I believe because the article seems to be Polish in origin, the author may not have had the advantage of reading all that has been written in the English media (and let’s face it – when there’s a Church scandal, the mainstream media loves to gather around it like a pack of ravenous rabid dogs gather around a thick rare steak). Another possibility is that the author may have been emotionally saturated/overwhelmed by what he had to report . If that is the case, it becomes easy to write the odd thing rashly or hastily.

In post # 13, I identified my disagreement as

• not a question at all of whether guilt is implicated , but rather a question of precisely which improprieties said guilt pertains to in some of the individuals mentioned.

and this as it would pertain to one person only , because his is the only case I am well enough acquainted with to comment on. The exception I take, is to how he in particular was portrayed in Father Dariusz Oko Ph.D’s linked article , WITH THE POPE AGAINST THE HOMOHERESY . Here is the pertinent passage from the article:

All four went entirely unpunished for a long time, despite many complaints and charges against them sent to Rome for years. Only direct contact with the Pope or publications in the media finally helped. Otherwise, everything was blocked at lower levels of local or by the Vatican hierarchy. It was similar in many other cases. For instance, several years passed before Bishops Patrick Ziemann of Santa Rosa in California (1999), Juan Carlos Maccarone of Santiago del Estero in Argentina (2005), Georg Müller of Trondheim and Oslo in Norway (2009), Raymond John Lahey of Antigonish in Canada (2009), Roger Vangheluw of Bruges, in Belgium (2010), John C. Favalora of Miami (2010) and Anthony J. O’Connell of Palm Beach in Florida (2010) were removed from office for active engagement in, or cover-up of,] homosexual paedophilia or ephebophilia. Similar steps had to be taken with 4respect to many other bishops who concealed or covered up such offences. The same applied to many, sometimes very influential priests.

Now the way it currently appears, everyone named in the hereinabove have either repeatedly committed physical acts of homosexual pedophilia or homosexual ephebophilia on their victims or took part in covering these offences up despite *“many charges and complaints against them sent to Rome for years.” * . Even before I get to the exception, I already have a problem with not classifying the offenders as either those who committed the acts and those who covered up the acts of others. Blanket condemnation is imprecise and it is not a Catholic thing. That’s clear . What happens when we go to the Confessional – don’t we answer as precisely as we can for our own sins ?

If you’re able to agree with what I’m saying so far, please proceed to Part 2 of the critique. If you can’t agree, the next part probably won’t make much sense to you.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Critique of WITH THE POPE AGAINST THE HOMOHERESY, Part 2 of 3

I’m going to call the individual named in the article NameWithheld from this point on.
So NameWithheld is considered by the article as one who either physically committed acts of homosexual pedophilia or acts of homosexual ephebophilia on a victim , or one who covered up these acts of someone else for years. Well – he wasn’t .
He is guilty of several things – but not the aforementioned. God please have mercy on this country of mine that slays children in the womb at will ; but if there is one good thing about this country, it has tough child pornography laws. And that is the offense of NameWithheld – possession of child pornography – on his laptop to be exact:

OTTAWA — Former Catholic bishop Namewithheld has pleaded guilty in an Ottawa courtroom to importing child pornography. * NameWithheld*, 70, was picked up at the Ottawa airport on Sept. 15, 2009 when border security agents said they found three images on his laptop computer of boys engaged in various sexual acts. Documents supporting a search warrant indicated NameWithheld was referred for a secondary inspection because he had visited Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Spain and Germany since 2005.Those countries are notorious sources of the illicit material.

So he gets charged with possession of child pornography and the next day he submits his written resignation to the diocese

NameWithheld was charged on Sept. 25 with possessing and importing child pornography. The very next day he resigned his position as bishop of the Diocese of Antigonish

Someone tell me please , where the **** is the cover-up and the moving around ? As far as we can tell, there were no “complaints and charges against him previously” and the Vatican appointed a new bishop the moment he had stepped down

While awaiting trial, he is placed under restrictions

Ottawa police Det. Dan Melchiorre said the bishop’s bail conditions were strict. “The conditions are very stringent…they are very strict conditions,” he told reporters. “A lot of it has to do with the Internet, computers, that sort of stuff.” He said that other conditions included restrictions on the bishop’s presence "around children under the age of 18.

When he finally has his trial, he pleads guilty and opts to go directly to jail (7½ months) while awaiting sentencing; is sentenced to 15 months in prison, released on probation because of time served, and as conditional to his release along with providing a DNA sample for the national sex offender registry , it will also be obligatory that :

NameWithheld , will now be on probation for two years. As part of his conditions, he will have to submit to random searches of his personal and office computers when required by the authorities.
He will also be banned for 20 years from areas where children might gather, such as schools and public pools, and from communicating online with minors under the age of 16.

Now anyone who says the Church mafiosos should’ve laicized him sooner , need to understand that the canonical process to laicize him couldn’t begin until after he’d been sentenced in civil court. Understand that he also removed himself.

Other notables would include the fact that a forensic psychiatrist says the disgraced bishop is not a pedophile, and that he was also responsible for the

$13-million settlement he arranged for victims of sexual abuse in the Antigonish diocese, a settlement that was widely hailed as compassionate and fair, Edelson said.

Okay, I’ll give one link here: if we’re going to read it, it may as well be from a reliable catholic source. Here’s one from Canada’s Catholic Register : catholicregister.org/news/canada/item/13546-psychiatrist-says-disgraced-bishop-lahey-not-a-pedophile

 

[NeedImprovement]

CONCLUSION
That same Catholic Register story says that* NameWithheld*

engaged in a number of homosexual “one-night stands” before settling into a 10-year relationship with a man, according to testimony

.
That’s not good at all for the Church or for him, but, one has to wonder if it actually constitutes a cover-up. The alleged cover-ups come from an authority who is supposed to do something about subduing the offender.It is also alleged that complains were sent to Rome for years concerning these individuals - but nothing written on the case of NameWithheld indicates anything of that kind. Moreover, if the authority and the offender are one and the same, there is no objectivity – so cover-up in this case is a misnomer. There is no collaborator – just one very sick person who shouldn’t be exercising ministry and who should get help – both of which have now been realized.

It is strange that NameWithheld when caught and charged with possession of child pornography, said he “is attracted to men 20-21 years old”. It would be very easy here to say “I told you so” he is not a pedophile – he’s a homosexual , even the forensic psychiatrist says he isn’t a pedophile. But the evidence says he is addicted to child pornography. Here are his own words from another article :

“I have come to recognize that I became addicted to Internet pornography on a very indiscriminate basis. This was an addiction powerful enough that despite my own distaste for it and my own internal convulsions I could not break it,” he said.

For whatever it’s worth, here’s my personal take on this:

NameWithheld is still troubled and was actively homosexual in the past. Presently, pornography has really messed him up badly, much worse – to the point where his very own description of his , um, sexual “orientation” is self- contradictory.

I think that should serve as a warning to all of us. Child pornography is the most abhorrent of all , but pornography in general takes no prisoners. It destroys everyone and everything it touches. The proclivity of this sin to affect young and old alike, and to spread like an infectious disease on a previously unprecedented worldwide scale isn’t something that can be ignored. It’s something we should all be praying about . . .** no prisoners** guys – even women force children to engage in child pornography. Here’s the link to an article that broke in January of this year digitaljournal.com/article/342077

Guess what ? As depraved as these women are , it doesn’t appear that they will fit into the homomafia category either. What about the consensus that it’s predominantly male on young male ? Have a look:

Each woman faces four counts of sexual assault with a weapon, two counts of assault causing bodily harm, five counts of assault with a weapon, four counts of invitation to sexual touching, three counts of sexual interference, two counts of producing child pornography and two counts of possession of child pornography

. . . Looks a little different when it is solely women who are (ir)responsible and not Church-related, doesn’t it ?
If Fr Dariusz thinks he’s found the “tip of the iceberg” I might suggest he try looking at the problem from the perspective of pornography – he’ll find nothing smaller than an entire polar icecap.

I believe there is a group within the Catholic Church who deliberately work against it . I don’t believe NameWithheld belonged in the group according to the sloppy classification methods employed in the article – which don’t appear to have been thought out carefully before proceeding. I also think whomever the story was allegedly leaked to, should have been able to recognize this before he/she re-leaked it.
The article was extremely rich in potential but suffered from sporadically poor presentation. That’s an observation. Why it was like that , I don’t know.

 

[JHow]

“Mafia” is colloquially used to describe any clique or group that exhibits a clannish or “in-group” behavior. It doesn’t always mean an organized crime ring, and the existence of such behavior or the use of the term does not require the same standards of proof that you might expect in a court of law. Language doesn’t work that way.

For example, in the US Army, they used to refer to the “Airborne mafia” - paratroopers, looking out for their own, clannish, spurning the “legs” (non-airborne personnel). In Poland, as I am sure buffalo can attest, there is a common phrase “czarna mafia” - the black mafia - can you guess to whom it refers? It is anti-clerical in nature.

Not to defend murder and mayhem, but even in the actual mafia, there is more than just the killing and mayhem associated with the word mafia. There is a warped sense of honor, of putting something before self, of family (sort of).

Suppose the term “homosexual subculture” were substituted in place of “homosexual mafia”, would it make the argument any more palatable to those who object?

I would also add, the application of “homo” in colloquial speech also undoubtedly owes a lot to the term “homophobia”. I suspect terms like “homoheresy” pay ironic homage to the phobia term.

 

[fintastic79]

1. If the Church is ‘riddled’ with powerful homosexual officials who quietly and effectively conspire to subvert the running of the organisation, how then can it be that the Church repeatedly makes public statements attacking that which this vast homosexual conspiracy would supposedly hold dear?
2. Secondly, how did the conspiracy, should it exist at all, get to be so large?

Answers:

1. Because homosexual priests are outnumbered by heterosexual priests. The homosexuals have neither the courage nor the numbers to directly challenge Church teachings on sexuality. Instead, they quietly undermine Church authority on these matters in their preaching, teaching, and counseling.
2. Because most Catholic priests are loving, forgiving, understanding people. They accepted gays into seminaries with the well-intentioned, optimistic belief that sexual orientation doesn’t matter because all priests must be celibate.

Are you sure you read the entire document? The author does an excellent job of explaining the dynamics that gave rise to the homosexual subculture in the priesthood. Many homosexuals are attracted to the priesthood for the wrong reasons (to hide from their sexuality, they don’t want a wife and children, etc.). They naturally reached out to each other for support. As their numbers grew, even more homosexuals started joining and heterosexuals started staying away. “Like attracts like.”

 

[fix]

So when I used the term homosexual lobby or* gay militants* , am I “demeaning an entire group”, am I “demeaning” every single child of God to be considered relative to the levels Fr. Hardon recommends ?

No, of course not. We have a class of people that are perpetually offended. Being offended or claiming inequality is that only sin that our culture will recognize and complain about.

Just because one claims offense is not proof one has any such right to be offended.

 

[fix]

Certainly. A mafia is a criminal organization that employs violence and coercion to enrich itself at the expense of innocent victims.

No evidence exists for any such organization.

Then you need to expand your ken.

Is it your position that people can take it upon themselves to invest heresies?

It is my position that people use literary devices to relate certain truths.

 

[pnewton]

Then you need to expand your ken.

What criminal activities are organized homosexuals involved in to fund their enterprises? I am familiar with many ethnic gangs and criminal organizations. I have never heard of a homosexual mafia. What names do they go by?

 

[fix]

What criminal activities are organized homosexuals involved in to fund their enterprises? I am familiar with many ethnic gangs and criminal organizations. I have never heard of a homosexual mafia. What names do they go by?

The term Mafia is not as limited as that poster claims.

 

[pnewton]

"
Suppose the term “homosexual subculture” were substituted in place of “homosexual mafia”, would it make the argument any more palatable to those who object?

Precision always lends credibility, as opposed to rhetoric. Consider the Godwin’s Law. Switching from nazi to mafia is no improvement.

 

[CopticChristian]

CONCLUSION
That same Catholic Register story says that* NameWithheld* .
That’s not good at all for the Church or for him, but, one has to wonder if it actually constitutes a cover-up. The alleged cover-ups come from an authority who is supposed to do something about subduing the offender.It is also alleged that complains were sent to Rome for years concerning these individuals - but nothing written on the case of NameWithheld indicates anything of that kind. Moreover, if the authority and the offender are one and the same, there is no objectivity – so cover-up in this case is a misnomer. There is no collaborator – just one very sick person who shouldn’t be exercising ministry and who should get help – both of which have now been realized.

It is strange that NameWithheld when caught and charged with possession of child pornography, said he “is attracted to men 20-21 years old”. It would be very easy here to say “I told you so” he is not a pedophile – he’s a homosexual , even the forensic psychiatrist says he isn’t a pedophile. But the evidence says he is addicted to child pornography. Here are his own words from another article :

For whatever it’s worth, here’s my personal take on this:

NameWithheld is still troubled and was actively homosexual in the past. Presently, pornography has really messed him up badly, much worse – to the point where his very own description of his , um, sexual “orientation” is self- contradictory.

I think that should serve as a warning to all of us. Child pornography is the most abhorrent of all , but pornography in general takes no prisoners. It destroys everyone and everything it touches. The proclivity of this sin to affect young and old alike, and to spread like an infectious disease on a previously unprecedented worldwide scale isn’t something that can be ignored. It’s something we should all be praying about . . .** no prisoners** guys – even women force children to engage in child pornography. Here’s the link to an article that broke in January of this year digitaljournal.com/article/342077

Guess what ? As depraved as these women are , it doesn’t appear that they will fit into the homomafia category either. What about the consensus that it’s predominantly male on young male ? Have a look:

. . . Looks a little different when it is solely women who are (ir)responsible and not Church-related, doesn’t it ?
If Fr Dariusz thinks he’s found the “tip of the iceberg” I might suggest he try looking at the problem from the perspective of pornography – he’ll find nothing smaller than an entire polar icecap.

I believe there is a group within the Catholic Church who deliberately work against it . I don’t believe NameWithheld belonged in the group according to the sloppy classification methods employed in the article – which don’t appear to have been thought out carefully before proceeding. I also think whomever the story was allegedly leaked to, should have been able to recognize this before he/she re-leaked it.
The article was extremely rich in potential but suffered from sporadically poor presentation. That’s an observation. Why it was like that , I don’t know.

NeedImprovement,

Can you summarize your intention in a few words…

I agree/disagree with the notion of homoheresy…

The notion of Homomafia in my opinion…

I posted all this information to demonstrate…